Don't think this is how the "stand your ground law" works

[raydog1]

http://www.wrko.com/...-beaten-trayvon

http://dailycaller.c...eed-identified/

The hits just keep coming.

And the reporter in the second link reported that Zimmerman claims Martin grabbed the gun. This may be the evidence his lawyer has been talking about. If they have forensic evidence that Martin grabbed the gun, then the case changes dramatically.

[Links2k]

http://dailycaller.c...trayvon-martin/

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.’s niece is criticizing the Rev. Al Sharpton and the Rev. Jesse Jackson for politicizing the Trayvon Martin shooting and leveraging racial tensions to rile up Americans.

Legitimate blacks recognize Sharpton and Jackson for what they are. The media and stupid people allow them to continue to think that they are relevant.

[raydog1]

Yeah raydog the biggest problem in this entire case was the irresponsible reports from the media. I don't now how long that police report has been available but the media continued to spout nonsense about him not being questioned, having his gun etc, well after I saw the police report. Makes you wonder if they really wanted to see it?

I agree. The reporting on this has been horrible. Then you have the talking heads discussing the reporting, and they've been equally bad. I was discussing this case with someone the other day, and both of us had heard very different narratives. It can go multiple days without a change and then BAM, change several times in a single day. I really hope when the investigation is done that they release everything to the public.

I want Kevin Costner on the screen giving us the blow-by-blow JFK style. "Back. . . and to the left. . . Back and to the left."

[raydog1]

Legitimate blacks recognize Sharpton and Jackson for what they are. The media and stupid people allow them to continue to think that they are relevant.

Agreed! It doesn't take a courageous "leader" to walk into Yankee Stadium and yell, "GO YANKEES!" Real courage is this:

“I remember when our home was bombed, and my dad went out to the people and he said, ‘please don’t riot, please don’t react violently, my family and I are alright,’†King said. “’If you have to hit anybody, hit me."

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/28/alveda-king-sharpton-jackson-should-stop-playing-race-card-over-trayvon-martin/#ixzz1qX8Vgexr

[TMF]

And, if by some chance you ever find yourself getting beaten to death in an encounter that that started because of something you did, I would assume then that you are willing to let yourself be killed, correct?

.

I never said that either. I guess I'd rather be alive and face manslaughter charges than be dead. Yeah, if I started a brawl and the other guy pulls a gun I'd have no choice but to shoot, but that doesn't mean I get off scott free if I contributed to the escalation.

[TMF]

It must be nice to be do certain of what happened when you know almost no facts...that's a talent I hope I never develop.

I never said that either. I base my assumptions on facts I already know to be true. The 911 tape wasn't manufactured and neither was Martin's dead body. Those two fact nuggets beg a very big investigation... one that should be under a microscope.

[QuietDan]

This video is really gonna add fuel to the fire. Zimmerman claims he was beaten to a point that he had to use deadly force. Where is the blood? Where is the swelling? I am not saying he was not hit but it looks like his claims were exaggerated.

Cleaned up, perhaps, by the EMT on the scene??

[QuietDan]

Well, I looked at the police video on television several times. I may not be a rocket scientist, but I did notice a few odd issues. I did not see any wet, grass stained clothing on Mr. Zimmerman. I also did not see the wounds that should have been on the back of his head, after having his head slammed into the concrete sidewalk as he said. When the officer opened Zimmerman's jacket, his nice, light gray shirt had NO blood on it. If Martin had him pinned down and Zimmerman shot him in fear of his life, how did Martin NOT bleed on him at all, since he was sitting on Zimmerman's chest? Blood sprays, especially up close. I have seen three people who had fights and had their noses broken; each one's face was swollen, eyes were black and they all bled like a stuck pig. Zimmerman did not appear to be bleeding, swollen or bruised. Zimmerman's nice shirt was also neatly tucked in; no disaray at all. This must have been the neatest fight in the world; he could have been coming from a date. I also noticed that the police had on NO gloves and did not seem to be preserving the clothing to test for DNA (which would prove Martin attacked) or blood (either Zimmerman's or Martin's) or anything else. Aren't the police supposed to photograph the shooter before they let him clean up or go home with the clothing on? This was not a simple fist fight on the street; someone actually was killed! Many have said the police did not have enough evidence to charge him; hard to have enough if none is collected. Guess it helps to have a retired judge for a father; good for Zimmerman at least.

Witnesses report that Zimmerman was wearing a red jacket. Therefore, no blood on the shirt underneath. Red jacket. Blood is red. EMT on the scene. Cops not going to take a bleeder into his patrol car if he can avoid it. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.

If the facts accumulate enough to go before a grand jury, then we might get an indictment. Then, we might get a trial, and the truth will become known. The whole truth, or as close as we'll ever get to it, comes out at the far side of a trial. And not before. We are all pissing into the wind, and pissing on each other. I guess some folks like that, or can't help themselves.

[Guest RevScottie]

I would hate to be the Sanford PD having to defend myself everytime some dumb ass expert comes forward with their "theory" of what happened.

Edited March 29, 2012 by RevScottie

[RobertNashville]

I never said that either. I base my assumptions on facts I already know to be true. The 911 tape wasn't manufactured and neither was Martin's dead body. Those two fact nuggets beg a very big investigation... one that should be under a microscope.

Well, I didn't know anyone was disputing Martin's dead body....guess I missed that.

Ah yes...the venerated 911 tapes - you've been beating that drum since post no. 9 - the ones that at one point many said that you could clearly hear Martin screaming for help only to find out later that it was Zimmerman screaming for help...yeah...great "facts" there. if that's the "fact" you are basing your assertions on then I hope to god you never get on a jury.

[TMF]

Well, I didn't know anyone was disputing Martin's dead body....guess I missed that.

Ah yes...the venerated 911 tapes - you've been beating that drum since post no. 9 - the ones that at one point many said that you could clearly hear Martin screaming for help only to find out later that it was Zimmerman screaming for help...yeah...great "facts" there. if that's the "fact" you are basing your assertions on then I hope to god you never get on a jury.

Noooooope. You keep trying to put words in my mouth just because I disagree with you. I challenge you to find any post of mine where I reference a 911 call from anyone else than Zimmerman. I never knew whether it was Zimmerman or Martin screaming for help; I still don't know that and neither do you. I don't believe anything reported in the media at face value. The media misreports and witnesses lie, embellish and remember poorly.

My assessment was based on Zimmerman's call to 911. If I was investigating this shooting that would be such a huge red flag pointing in the direction of Zimmerman instigating the altercation.

[RobertNashville]

Noooooope. You keep trying to put words in my mouth just because I disagree with you. I challenge you to find any post of mine where I reference a 911 call from anyone else than Zimmerman. I never knew whether it was Zimmerman or Martin screaming for help; I still don't know that and neither do you. I don't believe anything reported in the media at face value. The media misreports and witnesses lie, embellish and remember poorly.

My assessment was based on Zimmerman's call to 911. If I was investigating this shooting that would be such a huge red flag pointing in the direction of Zimmerman instigating the altercation.

Noooooope....not putting any words in your mouth.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough but I didn't reference any specific 911 tape; who made the call, or make any claim about what tape or tapes you have referenced.

I also did not say; at least I did not intend to say, that you were making claims about who was or wasn't screaming. However, some people have made those claims and I mentioned that to illustrate the folly of reaching a conclusion based on a "911 tape" (or tapes) - such a tape(s) is at best, one piece of many pieces of the puzzle and is/are subject to interpretation including incorrect interpretation about what happened.

Given how quickly you reach an opinion and based on the limited information you seem to need to reach that opinion, it's probably a good that you aren't investigating the shooting.

Edited March 29, 2012 by RobertNashville

[TMF]

Ah yes...the venerated 911 tapes - you've been beating that drum since post no. 9 - the ones that at one point many said that you could clearly hear Martin screaming for help only to find out later that it was Zimmerman screaming for help...yeah...great "facts" there. if that's the "fact" you are basing your assertions on then I hope to god you never get on a jury.

No one was screaming for help on Zimmerman's call to police. You are absolutely putting words in my mouth. Read your last two posts. The ONLY tape I've ever spoke of was Zimmerman's call. That is the only one that matters to me.

[TMF]

No it would be just fine if I was investigating the shooting. Police make assumptions/theories, then try to prove and disprove those assumptions by gathering evidence. I never condoned getting a rope and letting him swing.

[Guest wdytia]

Red jacket was open, not zipped; gray shirt was visible. Blood does not remain red and does not dry without leaving black looking splotches. So did the wet grass stains that should be all over the back of the jacket also turn red? Swelling from facial injuries will not go down in minutes or hours; generally takes couple of days and lots of ice. Head wounds from being slammed onto a sidewalk as reported do not heal in 40 minutes, no matter if the EMT cleans it off or not. A point blank shot of someone that is on top of you would get blood on the shooter in more places than the red jacket. If someone kills a person, the cops should photograph the shooter's injuries, if for no other reason than to corroborate his story. If I were the shooter, I would have made sure all the cops saw what this kid did to me so I would not have to look over my shoulder for an arrest later.

[RobertNashville]

No it would be just fine if I was investigating the shooting. Police make assumptions/theories, then try to prove and disprove those assumptions by gathering evidence.

The only "evidence" I'm seen you interested in 29 pages is anything that blames Zimmerman...that's not an "investigation', that's an agenda.

I never condoned getting a rope and letting him swing.

And just when did I say you did??? Please quote the post where I said you had "condoned getting a rope and letting him swing".

Edited March 30, 2012 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

No one was screaming for help on Zimmerman's call to police.

I did not say that there was screaming for help on "Zimmerman's call to the police"; I said that the 911 tapes contain screaming for help; I did not nor did I intend to specify any particular tape; I was referring to all the tapes in general which is why I used the word tapes.

You are absolutely putting words in my mouth.

No I'm not.

Read your last two posts.

I really don't need to; I wrote them.

The ONLY tape I've ever spoke of was Zimmerman's call. That is the only one that matters to me.

That's not the only tape that matters to me.

I'm referencing ALL THE TAPES because I'm interested in ALL that was said and can be heard. Just because only one tape of one call is the only one you want to speak of does not obligate me to ignore the rest of them.

Edited March 30, 2012 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

It's odd how so many people who weren't there can know so much more that the police who investigated the shooting.

"According to the initial police report, Zimmerman, 28, told police he was screaming for help and that no one would help him. The report also said Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and the back of the head. Officials said in the report that Zimmerman's back appeared wet and that he was covered in grass." - http://www.msnbc.msn...ews-orlando_fl/

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Am not making excuses for M's actions, though it is interesting to speculate on actions and motivations. If M had survived, perhaps both M and Z would have been hauled off to the pokey because then it would be a he-said-he-said game? The tweets dredged up by the DC make it appear possible that M was looking for a fight, but then again if we shoot everybody who makes dumb internet posts then it would go a long way toward solving over-population? Some idle thoughts. Ain't trying to refute others' opinions.

If someone is simply following you (even if you feel like it's been for too long) and you blast them in the nose, you're going to jail. If Zimmerman's account of what transpired that night is true, once the kid broke the law by physically assaulting him, all bets were off.

Whether or not Zimmerman is being truthful is a completely different story. I wasn't there, and I've read that multiple witnesses are giving accounts that contradict each other.

If things went down as Zimmerman and at least some of the witnesses claim, I don't think he broke the law. If you want to argue whether or not he should have allowed the situation to escalate to that point, fair enough. But following someone through your neighborhood his not against the law.

TripleDigitRide those are excellent points. A couple of quibbles, but ain't sayin yer wrong--

Kids are impulsive and don't plan ahead. Lots of kids might pop you without first considering consequences. Am not convinced that the odds of going to jail over a fist fight are especially high. Have avoided altercations for 40 years, but none of my altercations got reported to police. It would have never occurred to me to report it though I would do so today. Playing music at clubs, witnessed numerous bar fights. I doubt that police were ever aware of more than one percent of fights I witnessed. Maybe every time a fellow starts a fight he should go to jail but the actual odds might be slim?

Yer probably correct that it is legal to follow a random stranger even if it makes a person paranoid, afraid, or angry. Thought it might be covered under a stalking or intimidation law. Am not smart with law and maybe it is in there somewhere. The laws I found don't make it illegal to scare a stranger by acting creepy, if it is a one-time event. It is illegal to repeatedly act creepy to the same individual. Also there are laws about adults acting creepy toward minors which might apply. Dunno.

Maybe that also means that it's entirely legal to stand in front of a polling place holding a big stick and chanting, "Get ready to be ruled by a black man, cracker."

Maybe "You sure got a purty mouth" should be taken as a compliment!

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Putting yourself in their shoes, after they get in your face and you punch them out. Are you going to straddle them and start pounding their face into the ground with your fists while they scream for mercy? I don't know all the facts, but I feel zimmerman was wrong for confronting the kid/escalating things. I am sure they had a verbal exchange - but I also feel that zimmerman didn't throw the first punch. He was on phone with police, the kid looked suspicious to him. If he was out for vigilante justice or he wasn't law abiding on SOME level, he wouldn't have called the police. The kid could have got off the phone with his girlfriend and called the police himself, but he didn't. There 2 wrongs don't make a right, and both sides wronged in my book. But to me (if I am understanding the details currently, and I am sure some things are probably left out), Zimmerman's wrong doesnt warrant having his face smashed into the ground helplessly.

If I threw a punch in the same situation (which I wouldn't have) and the person went down, I would use that opportunity to run away while they are down and disoriented. Once safe, I would call the police to report what happened. The kid isn't totally off the hook in my book.

Nysos I basically agree. Agree totally that M's behavior most likely worsened the situation. Minor quibbles-- Maybe kids ought to go running to the police when there is trouble, but am not certain it is common. It wasn't common when I was a kid though perhaps it is different now.

It isn't yet clear how much sidewalk head banging actually occurred, though perhaps there was lots of head banging. M straddling Z also sounds bad. I am against any kind of violence. Am ignorant of tush-hoggery lore but there are big slow guys and there are smaller nimble guys. Of course there are a few lucky big fast guys and a few unlucky small slow guys.

If a big slow guy obeys proper boxing rules of etiquette then he will stagger around like a drunk dancing bear while the nimble guy dances around rearranging the big guy's face. If the big guy wishes to prevail then he will absorb damage until he can get ahold of the fast guy. After going to all that trouble of getting ahold of the fast guy, he's gonna pop him enough times that it is pretty certain the fast guy has lost interest fighting. It would be silly to release the fast guy too early. If you let him go too soon and he starts punching again, then you gotta chase him around until you can get ahold of him again, getting punched in the face the whole time.

Maybe Z should have yelled uncle rather than yelling for help?

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I'd argue that if a teenage football player 4" - 6" taller and much more athletic punches a pudgy, out-of-shape guy and knocks him down that's an azz whoopin' and one guy is winning. Maybe the scuffle continues and the better fighter mounts the other and lands a couple of blows...still an azz whoopin' and still winning. When heads start getting smashed against sidewalks, it immediately changes from being an attempt to whoop their azz to trying to do serious harm or kill someone. This is not winning, this is attempted manslaughter/murder.

Maybe that's a technicality based on the reports of one case, but I'm just spelling out the differences in this ONE case. In general, I agree 100%. You can't go pulling your ccw to bail you out of a fist fight, even if you didn't start it.

Yep, agreed. They were pretty close in age. Z was 28 and there are MANY thirty-somethings that can whoop a 17 year old.

Got to thinking-- Afore I go on a 20 mile hike, I'm gonna make purty sure I can walk 20 miles. You would think that afore a feller intentionally gets in the face of potentially dangerous thugs that the feller would make reasonably sure that he is qualified to handle the result? Dogs probably don't know what to do if'n they ever catch a car. People ought to be smarter than that!

Oh, and one more thing... Nancy grace needs a raging case of herpes. Nothing gray about that.

Now that is something everybody can agree on! Or maybe she got the herpes long ago and it settled in her brain?

[Mark@Sea]

I saw an enhanced frame of the video from the police station. It is still crappy low-rez, but Zimmerman had a hell of a gash on the back of his head. One of the cops makes an obvious check of it. It is equally obvious in the ABC news version that their "ABC News Exclusive" graphic is deliberately placed (and in fact moves slightly) to occlude the gash.

I don't live in a gated community. Even so, I am familiar with most everyone that lives on my road. If I see a 'person of interest', I will follow and greet if possible. If the 'person of interest' has an attitude, I'm gonna be real curious as to their intentions. This is not an aggressive act. If they decide to to start a fight, then it is Katy bar the door.

Zimmerman claims Martin struck first. Eyewitness sees Martin as the attacker. Eyewitness reports Zimmerman screaming for help. Injuries noted in the police report are consistent with Zimmermans' account and eyewitness account.

Absolutely NO evidence or eyewitness account that Zimmerman was the aggressor at any point.

Respectfully request that statements made here that Zimmerman is a coward be substantiated. Likewise that Zimmerman deserved being brutally assaulted. Please be prepared to support your conclusion with the evidence we have at hand.

Alternately, suggest you be very cautious walking down my road.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Respectfully request that statements made here that Zimmerman is a coward be substantiated.

Z is certainly braver than me. I'm way too cowardly to go looking for trouble.

Likewise that Zimmerman deserved being brutally assaulted.

If you poke a bear with a stick, do you deserve to be mauled?

====

A little questionaire--

If you are not capable of dealing with a thug, and you suspect you see a thug, do you:

1- Go get in the thug's face

2- Wait for the police

If Z had waited for the police, is it likely that M would have jumped the police?

1- Yes

2- No

If Z had waited for the police, and M had jumped the police, is it likely that the police would have had to shoot M in order to control him?

1- Yes

2- No

If Z had waited for the police, is it likely that M would still be alive?

1- Yes

2- No

If Z had waited for the police, is it likely that the Black Panthers would have a bounty on Z's head, or that Z will be in for years of various legal, personal, and financial hassle?

1- Yes

2- No

IMO it comes down to judgement. If you ain't qualified to put yer hands in a live breaker box, then if you have good judgement you ain't gonna put yer hands in a live breaker box.

[CQB Elite]

Lester, great questionnaire! I'd like to answer two of the questions by offering this- first, I don't think M would have stuck around and waited for the police to show up. Second, if he did and he attacked the officer then they couldn't just shoot him. They have to follow the Use of Force Matrix. The Matrix goes from "officer presence" (which is considered a use of force) to verbal commands to open/empty hand techniques to impact weapon and then on to deadly force.

You meet force (resistance) with the appropriate response. LEO are trained to and held to that standard. Private citizens are not.

[Mark@Sea]

Some folks around here got their use of force curriculum in a strange school. Asking someone what their business is in your neighborhood is grounds to get beaten, but responding to a beating with a firearm is a no-no.