Don't think this is how the "stand your ground law" works

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I don't think you should be held liable if you are truly and have good reason to be in fear for your life.

So if I strap on a 10mm, go pop a heavyweight champ boxer in the nose, and then shoot him in the head after he starts wailing on me-- I can get off scott free cause I was scared?

Edited March 29, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[NRA]

blah blah blah............... political correct................ blah blah blah! I am soo tired of it!

[MattCary]

So if I strap on a 10mm, go pop a heavyweight champ boxer in the nose, and then shoot him in the head after he starts wailing on me-- I can get off scott free cause I was scared?

If you do that, he knocks your ass on the ground, and that's it. No.

He knocks you on the ground, then starts smashing your skull on the sidewalk, you're getting warmer.

[RobertNashville]

If you do that, he knocks your ass on the ground, and that's it. No.

He knocks you on the ground, then starts smashing your skull on the sidewalk, you're getting warmer.

EXACTLY. The boxer ought to be smart enough and man enough to STOP and not just keep wailing on the man who punched him in the nose.

I also suspect that if the boxer (or Martin) had kept going and actually killed the other, it would be the boxer/Martin facing jail time for at least manslaughter.

[Links2k]

\Maybe it means that people shouldn't jump to conclusions and especially so when most of the information is innuendo coming from people with an agenda supported by a mostly stupid press.

Both sides are reaching their own conclusions. It can't be that only the guys who agree with you have the facts. As I stated earlier it's all speculation on here. Nobody knows what happened except for God and Zimmerman.

[RobertNashville]

Both sides are reaching their own conclusions. It can't be that only the guys who agree with you have the facts. As I stated earlier it's all speculation on here. Nobody knows what happened except for God and Zimmerman.

Agree with me about what? I've said from the beginning and at least once already today that I don't know who was and who wasn't in the wrong.

"Speculation" is one thing and it's understandable but that's not what I'm talking about...I'm talking about people who weren't there, not speculating, but rather being damn certain about who WAS in the wrong with their certainty is based on virtually nothing I find that kind of certainty to be both dangerous and disturbing.

Edited March 29, 2012 by RobertNashville

[CQB Elite]

So if I strap on a 10mm, go pop a heavyweight champ boxer in the nose, and then shoot him in the head after he starts wailing on me-- I can get off scott free cause I was scared?

Problem is trying to find a heavyweight champ these days. Ain't been a good one in years....

[Erik88]

So if I strap on a 10mm, go pop a heavyweight champ boxer in the nose, and then shoot him in the head after he starts wailing on me-- I can get off scott free cause I was scared?

You're making assumptions that Zimmerman punched the kid first. There is no evidence to support that.

At this point I'm sure the prosecutors are praying for evidence that will allow them to arrest Zimmerman just so the media and race baiters are satisfied. The fact that there hasn't been an arrest yet leads me to believe that don't have squat to charge him with.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I'd be willing to wager the prosecutors are feeling a bit of Catch-22 right now. If they find something to charge

Zimmerman on and he is found not guilty, the media and the Al-Jesse team will still want their justice. There is no

happiness to gather.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

So if I strap on a 10mm, go pop a heavyweight champ boxer in the nose, and then shoot him in the head after he starts wailing on me-- I can get off scott free cause I was scared?

You're smarter than that, Lester.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

If you do that, he knocks your ass on the ground, and that's it. No.

He knocks you on the ground, then starts smashing your skull on the sidewalk, you're getting warmer.

EXACTLY. The boxer ought to be smart enough and man enough to STOP and not just keep wailing on the man who punched him in the nose.

I also suspect that if the boxer (or Martin) had kept going and actually killed the other, it would be the boxer/Martin facing jail time for at least manslaughter.

Thanks Matt and Robert

So if I wait til I have a boo-boo on the back of my head, I can shoot him and get away scott free, having no liability at all in the affair?

You're making assumptions that Zimmerman punched the kid first. There is no evidence to support that.

Thanks Erik88

I don't assume anything about what went down between M and Z. Robert made an absolute statement and I requested clarification via hypothetical question. Merely curious whether Robert really thinks Fear for Yer Life is a get out of jail card which removes all culpability--

I don't think you should be held liable if you are truly and have good reason to be in fear for your life.

[MattCary]

This brief respite from seriousness brought to you by a crazy white guy in a hoodie. We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate.

[TripleDigitRide]

If someone is simply following you (even if you feel like it's been for too long) and you blast them in the nose, you're going to jail. If Zimmerman's account of what transpired that night is true, once the kid broke the law by physically assaulting him, all bets were off.

Whether or not Zimmerman is being truthful is a completely different story. I wasn't there, and I've read that multiple witnesses are giving accounts that contradict each other.

If things went down as Zimmerman and at least some of the witnesses claim, I don't think he broke the law. If you want to argue whether or not he should have allowed the situation to escalate to that point, fair enough. But following someone through your neighborhood his not against the law.

[MattCary]

If someone is simply following you (even if you feel like it's been for too long) and you blast them in the nose, you're going to jail.

Unless you're a woman, and you're being followed by a man.

Then he's a stalker.

But I see what you mean.

Edited March 29, 2012 by MattCary

[TMF]

That's right...I don't think you should be held legally or morally liable if you are truly and have good reason to be in fear for your life and you take action to defend yourself even if you pick a fight with someone.

And that is what I disagree with. When you are carrying a weapon you are in a different category than someone who isn't.

Painting yourself into a corner to the point that you have to use your pistol is not the intent of self defense, SYG or responsible carry.

It is my opinion that this is what happened. I base this on his 911 transcript and the subsequent dead teenager. There are plenty of LEOs around this site that regularly deal with mall ninjas like Zimmerman. Just looking for an excuse to be the hero. I wonder what it feels like for him now.

Edited March 29, 2012 by TMF 18B

[BigK]

Based on what I've learned from the links posted here and elsewhere:

I don't believe Martin should have to run away instead of standing HIS ground when someone suspicious was following him on a dark rainy night. He didn't seem to decide to that, he ran instead (no shame in that, likely the smartest move).

I don't believe Zimmerman "picked a fight" or "caused the escalation" by simply keeping someone he thought looks suspicious in sight until cops arrived. He seemed to think the guy got away according to the tape I heard.

I do believe Martin should have called 911 and reported some creep following him, if he really was threatened by that. Despite having time to do so, he decided he didn't need to do that.

I do believe that Zimmerman thought he was in deep doo doo or there wouldn't be multiple witnesses and 911 recordings of him screaming for help.

I don't care how bad I need an azz whoopin, I ain't letting someone bash my skull against a sidewalk...even if I started it.

I don't care how mad I am that I'm being followed by some creep...it's no longer self-defense when I am sitting on his chest hitting him and smashing his head against the ground.

Edited March 29, 2012 by BigK

[DaveTN]

And that is what I disagree with. When you are carrying a weapon you are in a different category than someone who isn't.

And I think that’s part of the problem here. Many people here are putting themselves in the shoes of the shooter because they have a carry permit. They want desperately to believe that they can use that gun any time they are in fear of getting their azz kicked and don’t have to worry about going to prison.

Sorry, but that’s not how it works. I put myself in the shoes of the victim. If I’m walking down my street unarmed and someone jumps out of a truck and starts asking me questions, I’m going to tell them to GTF away from me. If they continue and get close I may well punch them out. I hate to think the fact that I may be winning gives them justification to murder me.

If nothing else some may learn from this case. I don’t know what is going to happen to Zimmerman if he goes to trial; but I bet I know what will happen to him if he dosen’t.

[DaveTN]

the same way you so adamantly believe Zimmerman is guilty. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

I haven’t said he is guilty. I have just asked for a trial. I’m not going to be told that this isn’t a crime in Florida, or that a Florida jury won’t convict him; that’s non-sense. The Police believed there was cause for an arrest warrant, and asked for one. The States Attorney is the one that wouldn’t prosecute the case. He may have had a change of heart; a Grand Jury will be convened April 10^th. Although, as I have said before, a Grand Jury is only a rubber stamp for the SA. Depends on if he has decided if he wants this case to go to trial or not.

[CQB Elite]

I haven’t said he is guilty. I have just asked for a trial. I’m not going to be told that this isn’t a crime in Florida, or that a Florida jury won’t convict him; that’s non-sense. The Police believed there was cause for an arrest warrant, and asked for one. The States Attorney is the one that wouldn’t prosecute the case. He may have had a change of heart; a Grand Jury will be convened April 10^th. Although, as I have said before, a Grand Jury is only a rubber stamp for the SA. Depends on if he has decided if he wants this case to go to trial or not.

You might not have said Zimmerman was guilty but in an earlier post you did refer to Martin as "innocent"...

[daddyo]

And I think that’s part of the problem here. Many people here are putting themselves in the shoes of the shooter because they have a carry permit. They want desperately to believe that they can use that gun any time they are in fear of getting their azz kicked and don’t have to worry about going to prison.

Sorry, but that’s not how it works. I put myself in the shoes of the victim. If I’m walking down my street unarmed and someone jumps out of a truck and starts asking me questions, I’m going to tell them to GTF away from me. If they continue and get close I may well punch them out. I hate to think the fact that I may be winning gives them justification to murder me.

If nothing else some may learn from this case. I don’t know what is going to happen to Zimmerman if he goes to trial; but I bet I know what will happen to him if he dosen’t.

Is there something in the law that permits one to punch someone out because they're being followed?

And one thing's for sure - someone pins me to the ground and starts slamming my head into the pavement, I'm getting them off me by whatever means are available and necessary - not excluding putting a couple in their chest if I can manage it.

Edited March 29, 2012 by DaddyO

[BigK]

And I think that’s part of the problem here. Many people here are putting themselves in the shoes of the shooter because they have a carry permit. They want desperately to believe that they can use that gun any time they are in fear of getting their azz kicked and don’t have to worry about going to prison.

Sorry, but that’s not how it works. I put myself in the shoes of the victim. If I’m walking down my street unarmed and someone jumps out of a truck and starts asking me questions, I’m going to tell them to GTF away from me. If they continue and get close I may well punch them out. I hate to think the fact that I may be winning gives them justification to murder me.

If nothing else some may learn from this case. I don’t know what is going to happen to Zimmerman if he goes to trial; but I bet I know what will happen to him if he dosen’t.

Even as an HCP holder, I mostly agree with the first part of your statement about wanting to believe it's our get of jail free card. A butt whoopin' isn't usually life or death, so shooting someone to protect yourself from one isn't warranted.

I'd argue that if a teenage football player 4" - 6" taller and much more athletic punches a pudgy, out-of-shape guy and knocks him down that's an azz whoopin' and one guy is winning. Maybe the scuffle continues and the better fighter mounts the other and lands a couple of blows...still an azz whoopin' and still winning. When heads start getting smashed against sidewalks, it immediately changes from being an attempt to whoop their azz to trying to do serious harm or kill someone. This is not winning, this is attempted manslaughter/murder.

Maybe that's a technicality based on the reports of one case, but I'm just spelling out the differences in this ONE case. In general, I agree 100%. You can't go pulling your ccw to bail you out of a fist fight, even if you didn't start it.

[Guest nysos]

Sorry, but that’s not how it works. I put myself in the shoes of the victim. If I’m walking down my street unarmed and someone jumps out of a truck and starts asking me questions, I’m going to tell them to GTF away from me. If they continue and get close I may well punch them out. I hate to think the fact that I may be winning gives them justification to murder me.

Putting yourself in their shoes, after they get in your face and you punch them out. Are you going to straddle them and start pounding their face into the ground with your fists while they scream for mercy? I don't know all the facts, but I feel zimmerman was wrong for confronting the kid/escalating things. I am sure they had a verbal exchange - but I also feel that zimmerman didn't throw the first punch. He was on phone with police, the kid looked suspicious to him. If he was out for vigilante justice or he wasn't law abiding on SOME level, he wouldn't have called the police. The kid could have got off the phone with his girlfriend and called the police himself, but he didn't. There 2 wrongs don't make a right, and both sides wronged in my book. But to me (if I am understanding the details currently, and I am sure some things are probably left out), Zimmerman's wrong doesnt warrant having his face smashed into the ground helplessly.

If I threw a punch in the same situation (which I wouldn't have) and the person went down, I would use that opportunity to run away while they are down and disoriented. Once safe, I would call the police to report what happened. The kid isn't totally off the hook in my book.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

And I think that’s part of the problem here. Many people here are putting themselves in the shoes of the shooter because they have a carry permit. They want desperately to believe that they can use that gun any time they are in fear of getting their azz kicked and don’t have to worry about going to prison.

Sorry, but that’s not how it works. I put myself in the shoes of the victim. If I’m walking down my street unarmed and someone jumps out of a truck and starts asking me questions, I’m going to tell them to GTF away from me. If they continue and get close I may well punch them out. I hate to think the fact that I may be winning gives them justification to murder me.

If nothing else some may learn from this case. I don’t know what is going to happen to Zimmerman if he goes to trial; but I bet I know what will happen to him if he dosen’t.

I didn't put myself in anyone's shoes. I listened to the evidence. I saw a bunch of quotes from

people around here who thought they knew everything and started watching it get out of hand.

When I hear or see Barbara Streisand singing, I start looking for something else, because I saw

so much BS around here based on what the media was saying. Poor little kid. Trouble is the poor

little kid and the part hispanic left a few clues. Also a couple of witnesses. The poor kid is dead

and I'm not going to comment on his "poorness" anymore. I don't really care.

All I give a damn about is justice, not your version, the kind that cooler heads prevail, that doesn't

play off the media, and does things based on evidence.

You assume that some around here, probably me, too, want the shooter to go free because of your

idea that we are only putting ourselves in his shoes, that this looks bad for hcp holders. More Barbara

Streisand! It's not going to make a damn whether he was a carrier. By the time this plays out and if

something happens on the law books, I doubt it will matter because of everything going around the

country, so, I still don't care. The situation won't change because he was a poor kid. Only the evidence

makes a damn!

It's a mob lynching and I think your information is causing you to be part of the mob. So, don't tell me

I put myself in the shooter's shoes. By your logic everyone else is stupid. We must be all watching CSI:

Miami.

The guy is innocent until proven guilty. The Sanford PD and the State of Florida hopefully will be the

arbiters of justice, not you or anyone else. There is evidence to suggest otherwise from your views.

[RobertNashville]

And that is what I disagree with.

And, if by some chance you ever find yourself getting beaten to death in an encounter that that started because of something you did, I would assume then that you are willing to let yourself be killed, correct?

When you are carrying a weapon you are in a different category than someone who isn't

I agree and have already said so. However, at least in most states, there is also the recognition of disparity of force....just because someone isn't armed with a "weapon" doesn't mean he can't put you in a position where you have a legitimate fear for your life and support your right to use deadly force to defend yourself.

Painting yourself into a corner to the point that you have to use your pistol is not the intent of self defense, SYG or responsible carry.

I agree here too and have said so in this and other threads. I agree with Massad Ayoob and many trainers like him who teach that the armed citizen has an obligation to avoid confrontation if at all possible; even if that means you have to swallow your pride and walk away. However, I don't agree that someone has to let another beat him to death just because the one getting beaten to death MAY have done things that precipitated the physical encounter.

It is my opinion that this is what happened. I base this on his 911 transcript and the subsequent dead teenager. There are plenty of LEOs around this site that regularly deal with mall ninjas like Zimmerman. Just looking for an excuse to be the hero. I wonder what it feels like for him now.

It must be nice to be do certain of what happened when you know almost no facts...that's a talent I hope I never develop.

[raydog1]

A lot of people quoting the "he bashed his head on the sidewalk" claim to support their arguments. This is why I want to see more evidence. Because I haven't seen any evidence of this head bashing yet. His "injuries" could've simply been the result of a struggle between him and Martin. There also isn't much reporting on any injuries Martin sustained other than the gunshot. And now we have new reports that Zimmerman's reported injuries were exaggerated.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57406183/video-shows-zimmerman-without-obvious-injuries/

We may need a trial to get this info.