Coinage for SHTF

[Caster]

I don't fool around with coins and currency so I am both ill informed and easily amused.

At the last gunshow I saw someone selling COPPER bullion and coins. Since when? That's sweet! Affordable and in all honesty more useful. You can't make change for a multi hundred or thousand dollar bar of gold. Copper is small time for the rest of us. Seems to me that copper would be MORE valuable than gold and what not when get down to it. Wire, copper jackets, EVERYTHING has copper in it. I've been saving copper pennies for years. They're worth more than 1¢ each now and they ain't gonna be worth less anytime soon.

Does anyone collect this? Would this make for a reasonably good investment that can be returned if nothing ever happens?

[LI0NSFAN]

I have always wondered why copper was not worth more, maybe because it is in everything. I have a fairly large copper penny collection as well. I would also like to know if this would be a good investment, I am with you to the right person copper is worth its weight in gold.

[Jamie Jackson]

I don't invest heavily in PM's. But I do put a small percentage of my prepping funds into what's commonly called junk silver. But this is only a small portion of my prepping focus...food, tools, water purification, gardening and storage (canning & dehydration) come first...but if there's a dip, I'll buy some more silver.

Gold may be an avenue to protect wealth, but it's not, imho, a realistic precious metal for me and my needs. In a serious economic collapse, making change could be next to impossible. For large purchases, or transporting wealth if bugging out (more fantasy than reality I think), it could have merit.

Copper coins and copper rounds are intriguing though. Provident Metals have some nice looking copper coins for example.

I believe it is currently illegal to melt (destroy) Government minted coinage. But like was mentioned, copper most definitely has many uses...

Pre-1982 copper pennies are most definitely worth saving. According to Coinflation the pre-1982 pennies are currently worth 2.54 cents. That makes 'em worth sorting out to me.

Edited March 19, 2012 by prag

[Caster]

I'm not aware of any REAL law that prevents you from destroying money. I could be wrong. It's always been MY understanding that it's the Federal Reserve that says you can't destroy money. Well....they don't have any lawmaking authority do they? They're powerful, maybe more powerful than the house, congress and the senate put together, but technically they have no law making authority.

Would some attorney please enlighten me? I built a small furnace capable of melting copper and was planning on moving some of the pennies to larger bars some day.

[Jamie Jackson]

Good point and info Caster. From a bit of searching around, you may well be right.

imho the Fed is the bane of our Great Nation and one of the primary entities responsible for our current economic situation...one of...

I would be interested in learning more on the legalities as well.

Thanks.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I had heard about laws against destroying money even back in the 1950's, but dunno details. Maybe it is serious or maybe it is about as heinous as removing mattress tags which read, "Do not remove under penalty of law."

There are old novelty coin-op machines where you insert one coin as payment, and insert another coin as raw material. Then the machine squashes yer raw material coin flat to be used as a pendant or whatever. One of those machines has been in operation at a tourist attraction in downtown chatt for more than 30 years, and as far as I know nobody went to jail over it.

Early 1970's made friends with a guy who traveled around wholesaling american indian silver&turquoise jewelry. Wish I had kept it, he sold me cheap this giant silver and turquoise thunderbird arm band that would knock yer eyes out. Never got up the nerve to wear it anywhere because it was so gaudy. The thunderbird was at least 4" tall and the back-strap silver was made of multiple silver wires at least 1/4" diameter. It was HEAVY. Signed by "J Lucio" who supposedly had a bit of a name as a native american silversmith.

Anyway, I asked the guy where Indians got silver for that kind of jewelry, and he said it was often melted usa coins. Before 1965, dimes and up were 90 percent silver. It probably only costed J. Lucio maybe 10 or 20 bucks in coin to make such a beautiful piece back then, not counting the skilled workmanship and whatever he had to pay for the turquoise and other minerals.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[Caster]

Well, I wouldn't condone anything illegal but it's interesting to point out [strictly from an academic aspect mind you] that once melted into ingots, they are not really distinguishable from anything else that you might melt down.

[Caster]

Yeah Lester, there were TONS of those old coins melted back during the silver rush several years ago.

[Moped]

Metals that I think might be a commodity are copper, lead, iron, and silver.

[Caster]

Lead?!!? Oh no that crap ain't worth nuthin'. I can get rid of any you have laying around so it won't be in your way.

[Guest USMC 2013]

Copper was at $3.80/lb last time I checked and is expected to hit $5 within the next 12 months. IMO copper makes good sense for an investment for the future and the most convenient way is to stock pile pre-1982 pennies. (It is illegal to melt down in circulation currency. Just Google it to find the law). A second best would be minted bars and rounds, but then you're paying a premium due to the cost of minting.

For investment most forward thinking folks advise keeping 10% of your savings in gold and silver. 1/4, 1/2 & 1oz gold coins are common and safe investments. 1oz bars/rounds, 5 oz & 10 oz bars are great ways to invest in silver.

For true SHTF scenario, and as an investment, pre-1965 dimes, quarters and half dollars are 90% silver. Almost everyone knows this and that fact makes these easy to trade. There is a level of trust with U.S. minted "junk" coinage because we all know it is 90% silver. With the smaller denominations it can help with trade scenarios. This is a good website to see what silver is going for daily...

www.coininfo.com

Also, if the SHTF scenario doesn't hit during your lifetime, think of the silver and gold as your prepping gift to your heirs.

Semper Fi,

Joe

[monkeylizard]

The U.S. Mint is part of the Dept of the Treasury. They have banned melting coins. I assume that the Treasury, and therefore the Mint, has the power to enact regulations.

[Caster]

Copied from Coinflation .com

Where does it say that you can melt coins? Well, that's part of the problem. It doesn't say anywhere that the U.S. government is ok with this. But, go to the U.S. Mint web site and search for "illegal". You'll get this result:

1. Is it illegal to damage or deface coins?

Section 331 of Title 18 of the United States code provides criminal penalties for anyone who fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the Mints of the United States. This statute means that you may be violating the law if you change the appearance of the coin and fraudulently represent it to be other than the altered coin that it is. As a matter of policy, the Mint does not promote coloring, plating or altering U.S. coinage: however, there are no sanctions against such activity absent fraudulent intent.

The keyword is fraudulent. When you take a 25 cent piece and try to pass it off as a Sacajawea Dollar, that's fraud. When you take a Buffalo Nickel, and scratch out one of its legs and try to sell it as a rare collectible, that's also fraud. But when you melt a pre-1982 cent, and sell it for its copper value, that's genuine and legal (visitcoinflation.com to see today's coin values and likely candidates for melting).

Also, silver refiners have been melting coins for decades. Precedent is on your side.

[broox]

This whole precious metals in a SHTF or survival situation has always confused me. If it really is TEOTWAWKI, Gold is not going to be useful to me. I actually think Beans or seeds will be worth their weight in Gold. But gold won't be? Maybe

[Guest ThePunisher]

Invest in precious metals, invest in lead. Ammo of course.

[Oh Shoot]

This whole precious metals in a SHTF or survival situation has always confused me. If it really is TEOTWAWKI, Gold is not going to be useful to me. I actually think Beans or seeds will be worth their weight in Gold. But gold won't be? Maybe

Always a debatable topic.

Best answer is always: depends on severity, extent, and duration of the crisis.

Obviously, if the entire USA reverted to a worst case chaos over short time span due to total breakdown of currency, law, and services/infrastructure, barter of physical goods and/or labor would reign for x amout of time. Beans and bullets (and toilet paper ) would be worth more than any precious metal.

But even if we had to start over from 1850's type resources, precious metals would almost certainly re-assume value, as they have since written human history of some 5K years.

Of course, if you don't make the cut in the meantime because you succumb to starvation, exposure, disease, or violence, wouldn't matter how much you had stashed, eh?

- OS

Edited March 19, 2012 by OhShoot

[Caster]

Id it were as you say a total collapse AND you manage to beat the filthy blue helmets down, the country would likely split into several regional/territorial, even tribal if you will, clans. Bartering between them can be done with USABLE precious metals. Gold is about worthless really. What can you use it for?

[Smith]

The only way metals are valuable are in a somewhat "stable" or structured economy. You will either have a monatary economy or a barter economy. In a barter economy precious metals are nearly worthless.

That being said, if you have precious metels AFTER the rise from a collapse ... then you have something. Think Rockafeller and Carnagie.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Smith

[Smith]

Id it were as you say a total collapse AND you manage to beat the filthy blue helmets down, the country would likely split into several regional/territorial, even tribal if you will, clans. Bartering between them can be done with USABLE precious metals. Gold is about worthless really. What can you use it for?

Headdresses and jewelry for the ruling elite ... sounds somewhat familiar to the current system

[Guest Lester Weevils]

It is said that some of the american indian tribes did not value gold and were puzzled that the conquistadores were so obsessed with the stuff.

However silver and gold were valuable to peoples of northern africa, europe, middle east and asia practically back to the stone age. Babylon and early Egypt were rather primitive, basically just stone age plus writing and bronze. The early tribal Jews valued silver and gold when they lived even closer to stone age than Egypt or Babylon. Greeks and Romans valued the precious metals, as did primitive Huns, Visigoths, Picts, Vikings, Turks, Arabs, Indians, Tibetans, Mongols, Chinese, Japanese and assorted ancient Southeast Asian cultures.

It would be surprising if people of future fallen civilizations would not lust after gold, silver and platinum but such things are impossible to predict.

If a primitive future would mimic a primitive past then people might lust after bronze or steel for weapons of war, in order to more efficiently take weaker people's gold and silver.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[mcurrier]

The only way metals are valuable are in a somewhat "stable" or structured economy. You will either have a monatary economy or a barter economy. In a barter economy precious metals are nearly worthless.

That being said, if you have precious metels AFTER the rise from a collapse ... then you have something. Think Rockafeller and Carnagie.

Agreed as far as gold, but silver has a ton of useful purposes. Not to mention...werewolves and vampires. I would imagine it would work on zombies too, but be a bit expensive for that purpose. Lead is fine for zombies.

Edited March 20, 2012 by mcurrier

[Caster]

Agreed as far as gold, but silver has a ton of useful purposes. Not to mention...werewolves and vampires. I would imagine it would work on zombies too, but be a bit expensive for that purpose. Lead is fine for zombies.

I like the way you think, WWDD.

What would Dean do?

[JAB]

There are old novelty coin-op machines where you insert one coin as payment, and insert another coin as raw material. Then the machine squashes yer raw material coin flat to be used as a pendant or whatever. One of those machines has been in operation at a tourist attraction in downtown chatt for more than 30 years, and as far as I know nobody went to jail over it.

All such machines I have seen use pennies as the coin that is squashed, restamped and so on. My understanding (IANAL) is that this is okay because, for whatever reason, pennies are not protected by the 'do not destroy currency' rule.

[Oh Shoot]

Agreed as far as gold, but silver has a ton of useful purposes. Not to mention...werewolves and vampires. ...

Doesn't do squat on vampires.

- OS

[Caster]

Doesn't do squat on vampires.

- OS

Au Contriare, the leeches descendent of Judas are highly allergic to silver.....wait...are we really going there?