Pulled over and did not disclose

[GS455]

I was pulled over in a little town west of Nashville and when the officer came back to give me my ticket he noted I had a carry permit and asked if I was carrying. Frankly I was a bit caught off guard / surprised that he knew this. Of course in retrospect it made sense. I told him I was and he politely suggested I let an officer know in the future just incase he were to see it undisclosed and have to escalate his lever of awareness/reaction. Not exactly his words but my interpretation. He was cool. It was fine. I got a ticket L.

Shared with my buddy and he told bout a time last year that he was pulled over coming back from the range with a loaded pistol up front. Gave the officer his license and carry permit letting him know he had a loaded weapon within reach. The officer thanked him and was about to go back to the patrol car to do his thing and came back to ask if there were any other weapons in the car. While not required to he did admit there were assorted other unloaded firearms in the trunk as he was driving back from the range. Looooong pause. The officer got short and curt and asked him to step out. Never rummaged the vehicle or anything but had him sit in the back of the patrol car while he was written a ticket for speeding.

I know these are mild stories compared to other experiences some may share and thank goodness we don’t live in DC, Chicago or NY. I’ve met several cops that support citizen carry rights and several others including ex-military that say local police forces and the US citizenry would never tolerate a national weapons round up. My question is. . . are we now open to activist discrimination because we are recorded on government records as having applied for a received carry permit? I’m a little wary of SBR’ing my Draco for the same reason. I know we don’t have literal gun registration (yet) but 5, 10, 15 years from now some progressive adaptation of State/Fed govt can dig up these records to target the collection of firearms and persecute us who have them. Been done time after time in the ramp up to authoritarian regimes. I guess reading “Death By Gun Control†by Zelman & Stevens has got me paranoid.

[Wheelgunner]

I don't think we are at a higher risk of being the subject of a traffic stop, etc. simply by way of holding a TN HCP. On the other hand, I see no need to ever buy (or convert) a SBR, a fully automatic weapon, or do anything else that would get my name on the federal radar. It's not a matter of paranoia; it's just my take on keeping a [cringe] honest government honest.

Personally, I don't think anything like a nationwide confiscation will ever be attempted, much less successfully implemented. And I don't think that's due to some Red Dawn citizen guerrilla reaction it might cause; I think there's just a LOT of voters who own firearms. However, I do believe it's important to be vigilant.

[daddyo]

I haven't been pulled over since I've been carrying, but the first thing I would do is hand him my HCP along with my DL.

Some cops in TN don't seem to realize that there is no duty to inform, but it doesn't seem to stop them from trying to make you feel like a jerk for not doing so or treating you like a suspect.

[TMF]

Forced to sit in the back of a police car because he was legally transporting firearms from the range? That's akin to being handcuffed, and the officer better have a damn good reason to do that.

[mikegideon]

Forced to sit in the back of a police car because he was legally transporting firearms from the range? That's akin to being handcuffed, and the officer better have a damn good reason to do that.

I think he may have had that right technically. Still, I would have probably tried to kick up a stink with his superiors after it was over.

[Jamie Jackson]

I know these are mild stories compared to other experiences some may share and thank goodness we don’t live in DC, Chicago or NY. I’ve met several cops that support citizen carry rights and several others including ex-military that say local police forces and the US citizenry would never tolerate a national weapons round up. My question is. . . are we now open to activist discrimination because we are recorded on government records as having applied for a received carry permit? I’m a little wary of SBR’ing my Draco for the same reason. I know we don’t have literal gun registration (yet) but 5, 10, 15 years from now some progressive adaptation of State/Fed govt can dig up these records to target the collection of firearms and persecute us who have them. Been done time after time in the ramp up to authoritarian regimes. I guess reading “Death By Gun Control†by Zelman & Stevens has got me paranoid.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, and insight on this.

While I agree with Wheelgunner that the gun owning populace is a strong voting arm when mobilized, it's the insidious nature of the loss of our Constitutionally Protected Rights that's always in the back of my mind.

I picked up a copy of John Ross's [b[unintended Consequences[/b] back in the late 90's. The first half of the book does an incredible job of illustrating that insidiousness. It's still a great read, but I can't believe what they are selling this book for on Amazon!

I have only had my driver's license checked a couple of times during the 20+ years I've carried concealed. This was traffic related and I offered by Permit...but it was required in the states I used to live/work in. While not required in TN, the Peace Officer would certainly see that you have a permit if he "runs" you. So I would most likely hand my License & Permit together to an Officer in a scenario such as you mentioned.

Without reasonable probable cause, they really shouldn't be concerned other than the issue at hand.

But some of the "young guns' on the force nowadays, without a good FTO, can be a bit gung ho and overzealous.

Edited March 18, 2012 by prag

[Blitzen]

I think that some form of gun confiscation may very well happen. Look at how the Health Care Bill was passed. Majority of the people did not want it passed but it was and the US Senate did what it took to get it passed. Every election from here on out is important for Second Amendment rights and the preservation of our Republic form of democracy. I believe that at any point in time we are one national election away from sweeping gun control legislation or the first corner stone being laid for gun confiscation. Vote and vote often!

[TNMP40]

I can usnderstand the office's concern for his safty while writing out the ticket and the guy in front has a bunch of guns in his car. One would think that he would have said something to the effect so the person knew why.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

There's no reason to disclose what's in your trunk. Not pertinent to the discussion of

having a carry permit. Politeness usually goes a long way, at least in my case. I have never

had a problem showing both cards, but have never been asked about the trunk, either.

If they run your license, they know you have a permit, don't they?

I can't understand the officer's safety concern unless there was some kind of threatening

reason. If I show an officer and somehow or another he deduces I am a threat, he isn't

much of an officer, in my opinion. A situation like that could very well change my stance on

disclosure. I hope that never happens to me.

The officers I have shown my permit, along with my DL, have consistently been grateful for

my consideration for both of our's safety. I have always been thanked and each of the times

they told me why I was stopped, no ticket, just fix a tail light or whatever the problem.

They have a job to do. Respect usually helps the situation.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I think that some form of gun confiscation may very well happen. Look at how the Health Care Bill was passed. Majority of the people did not want it passed but it was and the US Senate did what it took to get it passed. Every election from here on out is important for Second Amendment rights and the preservation of our Republic form of democracy. I believe that at any point in time we are one national election away from sweeping gun control legislation or the first corner stone being laid for gun confiscation. Vote and vote often!

It's staring us right in the face with a second term for the third world dictator.

[DaveTN]

Carrying a gun in Tennessee is a crime…. Period. And until that changes it’s an Officer Safety issue and he can do what he likes. Your legislators don’t recognize the 2^nd amendment as a right for you to carry and that’s all the cops can go on.

You are not required to notify an Officer in this state if you are carrying a gun. Many times it has been asked here for peoples opinions on what they should do. You now have the opinion first hand from a cop that stopped you. I’m a former cop and I’m notifying. I can also tell you that cops make the decisions they make based on the situation that is in front of them. I don’t care how many HCP’s you have or what the cop thinks about HCP holders, the best cops out there are going to disarm you if their senses tell them something isn’t right.

As far as your friend’s story… If I was the Officers Command Officer I would want to know what in the world was going through his head when he put him in his car. If he thought he was a potential danger the last place he needs to be is sitting behind the Officer in his car, unless he has been searched and handcuffed.

As far as your paranoia about being on list. Yes, you are on a list. You paid a lot of money and signed a bunch of paperwork to be part of our small club “the chosenâ€. No rights were involved and you did it because you wanted to buy the privilege of carrying. There is no record of what guns you have so give us a hint of what you think the scenario would be where someone would be persecuting you for owning guns and who do you think it would be.

Don’t get me wrong, paying to buy the privilege is better than not being able to be armed. But don’t fool yourself for one second that Tennessee is a pro-gun state or that any rights are involved.

Had you "notified" your story might have ended with “He was cool, I was fine, and I didn’t get a ticketâ€.

[mikegideon]

If I get stopped, I'll notify. I don't have a reason not to. If a cop puts me in his car because I have a bunch of guns in cases (which I frequently do), I will want to know why. I won't ask him, but will ask his boss with something in writing. Nothing about rights, really. I would just want a sensible answer, 'cause I can't think of one.

[Fallguy]

Several months ago I put my position to the test and didn't notify. Got a ticket, but no questions about a HCP, guns or anything like that. I was on my motorcycle so I was already "outside" the vehicle, but I have also always said I wouldn't let them find/see the handgun without notifying them.

I agree it's not a good idea to let them see or find a firearm you haven't told them about, but if it is concealed I don't see any reason to bring it up.

It sounds like the first officer in the OP wasn't that bad...he didn't tell you that you had to inform and doesn't sound like he got rude.

As far as the LEO with your friend.....it's funny how it was ok when he had a loaded firearm in reach but was worried about ones locked in the trunk. Who knows what was going through his mind.

As far as being on some list....I've never worried about it a whole lot. Just because you have a HCP doesn't mean you always carry a handgun or even own a gun for that matter. I know people who have got them "in case" or because there significant other carries and that way there isn't a problem if they are left with the handgun for some reason. And Yes I've filled out some 4473's but since there is no requirement for record keeping on private sales...who knows what I still have if any of them?

A friend of mine says even if the completely outlawed private firearm ownership tomorrow, they simply don't have the manpower to come and collect them all. If his position was 100 on a scale and 0 was they'd show up the next day at ever door to get them....I'm about a 90.

[Guest Matt Pavo]

After years of driving and no tickets/accidents of any kind, I got rear ended twice in 2011, anyway neither was my fault and we called the police for a report both times. One was in Lebanon and one was in Cookeville. Both times I let the responding officer know; the Lebanon officer just reminded me not to go for it and went from there. The Cookeville LEO took it, cleared it and handed me back my loaded magazine (Glock 27). He kept it in his pocket until he was done with paperwork, then handed it back to me. It may have been because it was nighttime and raining and I think it just made him feel better.

I usually get a positive response from LEOs including park rangers when I inform them I am carrying. My gun hero is a reserve LEO and he is extremely pro-gun, he was the one who convinced me to carry "wherever legal".

[QuietDan]

I'd disclose right up front, let the officer see your driver's license and your HCP. Don't you want the officer to put you in the "good guy/not a threat to my life" column? If you've noticed, in Tennessee your driver's license and your HCP have the same number. When the officer calls in your driver's license number to dispatch, it's going to pop up that you also have an HCP.

Your HCP is not linked to your vehicle's license plate number, so officers don't know about the HCP at the stop, just after they run your driver's license.

If you didn't disclose your HCP right up front when he comes to the car window for his little chat, the officer's gonna know anyways after he runs your driver's license, and then he'll be forced to wonder why you didn't mention your HCP any earlier. That alone is enough to get his prickle up and make his eyes squint while looking at you. Just what you need when an officer's at the side of the road trying to decide if you'll learn anything from a warning versus a ticket. What are you thinking?

A lot of cops get shot on traffic stops, so it's nothing personal just business when and if they temporarily disarm you. The officers all want to go home without additional holes in their bodies. For gosh sakes, if you're one of the good guys, act like one. An officer gets to see enough dirt-bags and bastards on a given day, why be another one?

Set the officer's mind at ease and let him know right up front about your HCP and if you've got a pistol on your belt. If he's gotta pry the information out of you, it's just going to make him suspicious of your motives, especially if you're spouting attitude.

Edited March 19, 2012 by QuietDan

[BlackHawk93]

Carrying a gun in Tennessee is a crime…. Period. And until that changes it’s an Officer Safety issue and he can do what he likes. Your legislators don’t recognize the 2^nd amendment as a right for you to carry and that’s all the cops can go on.

You are not required to notify an Officer in this state if you are carrying a gun. Many times it has been asked here for peoples opinions on what they should do. You now have the opinion first hand from a cop that stopped you. I’m a former cop and I’m notifying. I can also tell you that cops make the decisions they make based on the situation that is in front of them. I don’t care how many HCP’s you have or what the cop thinks about HCP holders, the best cops out there are going to disarm you if their senses tell them something isn’t right.

As far as your friend’s story… If I was the Officers Command Officer I would want to know what in the world was going through his head when he put him in his car. If he thought he was a potential danger the last place he needs to be is sitting behind the Officer in his car, unless he has been searched and handcuffed.

As far as your paranoia about being on list. Yes, you are on a list. You paid a lot of money and signed a bunch of paperwork to be part of our small club “the chosenâ€. No rights were involved and you did it because you wanted to buy the privilege of carrying. There is no record of what guns you have so give us a hint of what you think the scenario would be where someone would be persecuting you for owning guns and who do you think it would be.

Don’t get me wrong, paying to buy the privilege is better than not being able to be armed. But don’t fool yourself for one second that Tennessee is a pro-gun state or that any rights are involved.

Had you "notified" your story might have ended with “He was cool, I was fine, and I didn’t get a ticketâ€.

Amen!

[mikegideon]

A lot of cops get shot on traffic stops,

This is why I will always inform them. I have lots of respect for that job, and most of the individuals that do it. Why give them one moment of anguish when they're doing something that I support? And yeah, a few of them are boneheads, just like anything else.

[joe.40]

I agree mike my father was a cop for 28 Yrs and 2 of my uncles Were and i am going to start testing tomorrow for morristown pd and while my father,uncles and i all carry and support gun laws as an officer you always have to be on guard.im am just glad i know the gun laws that way if i pull ever someone with an hcp i wont look like a jackass.

[Guest Lowbuster]

In 1998 I was pulled over at 1am by unmarked car. "officer" walked straight up to me,past my outside rear view mirror and asked for my license. Whenever I get pulled over (3times in 24 years) I get license,hcp,etc ready,turn on interior lights and put my hands on top of steering wheel. When I handed my license and hcp he asked why I had two drivers license. I told him to look again that I didn't. He says handgun permit? Do you have a gun on you. I replied yes, he said where is it, I replied in my right hand. He gave my Id's back and told me to go on. I drove to nearest phone which was my house (no cell owned at this time) and called it in. Sure enough no unmarked out that night. Just thought I'd share, I do notify and always will.

[DaveTN]

Your HCP is not linked to your vehicle's license plate number, so officers don't know about the HCP at the stop, just after they run your driver's license.

That wasn’t true 30 years ago; I don’t know why it would be true today with much more advanced technology. I could run a plate and get back info on the RO including their driver’s license info. It’s how we caught a lot of Suspended/Revoked drivers. Many times I would know the RO was Suspended/Revoked before I stopped the vehicle, I don’t know why today they wouldn’t get back HCP info.

[QuietDan]

That wasn’t true 30 years ago; I don’t know why it would be true today with much more advanced technology. I could run a plate and get back info on the RO including their driver’s license info. It’s how we caught a lot of Suspended/Revoked drivers. Many times I would know the RO was Suspended/Revoked before I stopped the vehicle, I don’t know why today they wouldn’t get back HCP info.

I imagine a lot could change in 30 years, databases, procedures, laws. Do you have more recent information on the topic? Is your experience limited to Murfreesboro or another Tennessee town or city?

It may be a jurisdictional or a procedural thing. In MY town, it IS true. I asked the question and received a direct and detailed answer from the department representative in a public police class. I watched the process in a ride-along and asked additional questions.

Additionally, the registered owner of the vehicle and the driver of the vehicle are often two different people.

Regardless, the drivers license and the HCP are linked, beyond linked, essentially the same record with the same number.

Edited March 19, 2012 by QuietDan

[Will H]

I cannot speak for others but I personally would notify any LEO that pulled me over of my HCP, along with any and all firearms in the vehicle along with their locations and status.

When I was a kid I thought the police were all cool, calm, and collected. Oh, and they ALL carried S&W .44 magnums in shoulder holsters.

Years later I look at cops in our small town and realize that a lot of them a scared of their own shadows. They seem to be trained to react to a gun without any regard for context. Therefore, I would want tell them about any weapon I have LONG before they see it, and tell them in a calm, collected voice.

In my opinion it's not worth it to do otherwise. Imagine an honest law abiding citizen and an LEO in a firefight over a miscommunication...

[Guest infinity40]

Yeah and that's the thing, DaveTN,

I know they say we don't have a registration. But you cannot convince me that with today's technology, all that electronic information is not being stripped off somewhere in the cloud, by somebody, whenever you buy a firearm. Or when you apply for a HCP. Anybody anywhere with the right skill set can gain access to that info.

That's the reason I opposed the instant background check. I would rather wait a little longer and not make it easy for thieves and evil-doers to get access to that info.

I have a question, does anyone know if the serial number of the new firearm you purchase is transmitted when you buy a gun? I always wondered about that. If so, my fears are probably justified.

Edited March 19, 2012 by infinity40

[Jonnin]

I'd disclose right up front, let the officer see your driver's license and your HCP. Don't you want the officer to put you in the "good guy/not a threat to my life" column? If you've noticed, in Tennessee your driver's license and your HCP have the same number. When the officer calls in your driver's license number to dispatch, it's going to pop up that you also have an HCP.

Your HCP is not linked to your vehicle's license plate number, so officers don't know about the HCP at the stop, just after they run your driver's license.

If you didn't disclose your HCP right up front when he comes to the car window for his little chat, the officer's gonna know anyways after he runs your driver's license, and then he'll be forced to wonder why you didn't mention your HCP any earlier. That alone is enough to get his prickle up and make his eyes squint while looking at you. Just what you need when an officer's at the side of the road trying to decide if you'll learn anything from a warning versus a ticket. What are you thinking?

A lot of cops get shot on traffic stops, so it's nothing personal just business when and if they temporarily disarm you. The officers all want to go home without additional holes in their bodies. For gosh sakes, if you're one of the good guys, act like one. An officer gets to see enough dirt-bags and bastards on a given day, why be another one?

Set the officer's mind at ease and let him know right up front about your HCP and if you've got a pistol on your belt. If he's gotta pry the information out of you, it's just going to make him suspicious of your motives, especially if you're spouting attitude.

This. I also always tell them right off, with my hands on the steering wheel. None have ever said much, mostly something along the lines of "that's fine, thanks for telling me". One ran my ID and came back & asked if I were armed, I said no (I was not) because I was going places it was not allowed, and he did not search or anything just grunted at me.

Comes down to, I have nothing to hide. If I can convince the LEO that I have nothing to hide and am totally up front with it all, he does not feel the need to make me get out, disarm, search the car, or otherwise waste time and get stressed out. It just isnt worth it.

[Fallguy]

That wasn’t true 30 years ago; I don’t know why it would be true today with much more advanced technology. I could run a plate and get back info on the RO including their driver’s license info. It’s how we caught a lot of Suspended/Revoked drivers. Many times I would know the RO was Suspended/Revoked before I stopped the vehicle, I don’t know why today they wouldn’t get back HCP info.

DL/HCP info is not directly tied to your tag number. Yes you can run the tag get the RO info, take that info and run a DL check. But it is a two step process. My guess on why it's not regulalry done is, even though the RO is usually the driver, they are not always the driver. Also just because someone has a HCP doesn't mean they are armed.

Also I know around here they don't always run a tag check on every vehicle that is stopped and many times don't run a DL check on the driver. I'm sure in other places they do though.