Carry without a permit

[JayC]

Making that argument in court will cost a lot more than an HCP. Court and lawyers are very expensive.

Frankly I'd be shocked that any DA would attempt to charge under that defense... very short trip to the re-election fight of their lives.

The fact remains that many people can't afford to get an HCP, I think we can all agree the permitting process and costs related to it are a significant hurdle preventing a lot of lower and middle income people from getting the permit, for example my permit cost me about: $1395 to get back 8+ years ago.

Today that cost would be a lot more, $1855 or so. That is just the wasted man hours, class, ammo, and permit costs... it doesn't include the price of the handgun, carry ammo, and holster, which today would start to approach $2500.

$2500 vs the risk of getting charged for carry ammo and a firearm from your car in the range parking lot to the range? I just don't see it happening.

The cost of getting a permit is too high, it's corporate welfare for shooting ranges and instructors, and provides little to no benefit to the public or HCP holders. We could provide the entire class online for $5-10 per student 24 hours a day 7 days a week, have it automatically submit their permit application electronically, and have the entire permit process cost less than $50-60, and have the permit be for the life of the individual getting it.

Hundreds of dollars per permit to weed out 1% or less of applicants is insane.

[Oh Shoot]

Making that argument in court will cost a lot more than an HCP. Court and lawyers are very expensive.

Likely more expensive if you rely on the Ninja Snapping Turtle Defense.

- OS

[Fallguy]

Likely more expensive if you rely on the Ninja Snapping Turtle Defense.

- OS

Yep...

You can always find a use for a firearm in almost any situation.....doesn't mean it is necessary for the activity though or would qualify as a defense under 39-17-1308

Self-defense is a lawful activity, but try carrying a firearm without a HCP and say is for self-defense and see what happens.

[RobertNashville]

Frankly I'd be shocked that any DA would attempt to charge under that defense... very short trip to the re-election fight of their lives.

The fact remains that many people can't afford to get an HCP, I think we can all agree the permitting process and costs related to it are a significant hurdle preventing a lot of lower and middle income people from getting the permit, for example my permit cost me about: $1395 to get back 8+ years ago.

Today that cost would be a lot more, $1855 or so. That is just the wasted man hours, class, ammo, and permit costs... it doesn't include the price of the handgun, carry ammo, and holster, which today would start to approach $2500.

$2500 vs the risk of getting charged for carry ammo and a firearm from your car in the range parking lot to the range? I just don't see it happening.

The cost of getting a permit is too high, it's corporate welfare for shooting ranges and instructors, and provides little to no benefit to the public or HCP holders. We could provide the entire class online for $5-10 per student 24 hours a day 7 days a week, have it automatically submit their permit application electronically, and have the entire permit process cost less than $50-60, and have the permit be for the life of the individual getting it.

Hundreds of dollars per permit to weed out 1% or less of applicants is insane.

I didn't spend anywhere even close to two grand for my HCP....more like $300 or so including ammunition. As for that handgun, whether we have a permit process or not you still need to have the weapon so its cost really shouldn't even be part of the equation.

I don't particularly like the HCP process and I agree it could be done for far less cost and hassle but I just don't see it as prohibitively expensive.

Further, I think most of us know that if we are truly going to prepare ourselves for the time when we may need to defend ourselves; we need a hell of a lot more training than the HCP class and that is generally going to mean professional classes that will usually cost a lot more time and money than the HCP process...if someone can't afford to get their HCP how are they going to afford the REAL training that they need to have?

I'm all for "Constitutional carry" because I don't believe that a law-abiding citizen should need the government's permission to carry arms any more than we need permission to take breath but EVERYBODY needs ongoing training and that is not usually free.

[JayC]

Robert, the total cost of your permit was a lot more than $300, and I can prove it.

Remember total cost is not just the cost of the class, the permit, it's the time you had to take to go to the class, take the class, and the entire permit process.

I was highlighting the fact that for somebody who needs to protect themselves, they likely need a carry firearm, holster and carry ammo... The average price of a quality handgun being $400-500, $50 for carry ammo, and $50 for a holster, so between 500 and 600 hundred just for the tools... can you do it for less, sure, but not a lot less... for an average worker that is the majority of a weeks take home pay... then you get to add the government cost on to that.

10 hours for the class, when you factor in drive time, and waiting around time (counting drive time, my class was more like 11)... 3+ hours at the DMV (I was there over 4), and another 2 hours to get fingerprinted. So 15 hours or so average time... When I got my permit, my internal billable per hour was $75, so 15*$75 = 1125, add in $100 for the class, $20 for the ammo, and $150 for the permit, and you're just shy of $1400.

15 hours for somebody making $20 is still $300, plus class, ammo, permit you're talking $580, as much if not more than the handgun they had to purchase for self defense.

My guess is, you make more than $20 an hour... so yeah the permit cost you a lot more than $300.

I can tell you right now, having co-workers and friends who are in their early 20's who want to get permits, having to work 50-60 hours a week, working 6 days a week, it is a hardship for them to get a permit, besides the upfront tax from the government, the time off is a killer in this economy. So yes I think it's fair to say it is prohibitively expensive.

We both agree people should train more, but even at the current levels of training of the population at large, they are still 5 times less likely to shoot and kill an innocent person than a police officer. I'm all for more training, but it shouldn't be a government requirement... I haven't seen a rash of HCP holders hitting innocent bystanders have you? But I also haven't seen a rash of otherwise law abiding citizens hitting innocent bystanders either.

We're in agreement all law abiding citizens should be allowed to carry any firearm they're legally allowed to own, and it's in their best interest to receiving training and keep their shooting skills fresh... I just don't believe the government has anymore right to mandate the type of training or how often anymore than how many times a minute you're allowed to blink your eyes.

I didn't spend anywhere even close to two grand for my HCP....more like $300 or so including ammunition. As for that handgun, whether we have a permit process or not you still need to have the weapon so its cost really shouldn't even be part of the equation.

I don't particularly like the HCP process and I agree it could be done for far less cost and hassle but I just don't see it as prohibitively expensive.

Further, I think most of us know that if we are truly going to prepare ourselves for the time when we may need to defend ourselves; we need a hell of a lot more training than the HCP class and that is generally going to mean professional classes that will usually cost a lot more time and money than the HCP process...if someone can't afford to get their HCP how are they going to afford the REAL training that they need to have?

I'm all for "Constitutional carry" because I don't believe that a law-abiding citizen should need the government's permission to carry arms any more than we need permission to take breath but EVERYBODY needs ongoing training and that is not usually free.

[RobertNashville]

Robert, the total cost of your permit was a lot more than $300, and I can prove it.

Remember total cost is not just the cost of the class, the permit, it's the time you had to take to go to the class, take the class, and the entire permit process.

I was highlighting the fact that for somebody who needs to protect themselves, they likely need a carry firearm, holster and carry ammo... The average price of a quality handgun being $400-500, $50 for carry ammo, and $50 for a holster, so between 500 and 600 hundred just for the tools... can you do it for less, sure, but not a lot less... for an average worker that is the majority of a weeks take home pay... then you get to add the government cost on to that.

10 hours for the class, when you factor in drive time, and waiting around time (counting drive time, my class was more like 11)... 3+ hours at the DMV (I was there over 4), and another 2 hours to get fingerprinted. So 15 hours or so average time... When I got my permit, my internal billable per hour was $75, so 15*$75 = 1125, add in $100 for the class, $20 for the ammo, and $150 for the permit, and you're just shy of $1400.

15 hours for somebody making $20 is still $300, plus class, ammo, permit you're talking $580, as much if not more than the handgun they had to purchase for self defense.

My guess is, you make more than $20 an hour... so yeah the permit cost you a lot more than $300.

I can tell you right now, having co-workers and friends who are in their early 20's who want to get permits, having to work 50-60 hours a week, working 6 days a week, it is a hardship for them to get a permit, besides the upfront tax from the government, the time off is a killer in this economy. So yes I think it's fair to say it is prohibitively expensive.

We both agree people should train more, but even at the current levels of training of the population at large, they are still 5 times less likely to shoot and kill an innocent person than a police officer. I'm all for more training, but it shouldn't be a government requirement... I haven't seen a rash of HCP holders hitting innocent bystanders have you? But I also haven't seen a rash of otherwise law abiding citizens hitting innocent bystanders either.

We're in agreement all law abiding citizens should be allowed to carry any firearm they're legally allowed to own, and it's in their best interest to receiving training and keep their shooting skills fresh... I just don't believe the government has anymore right to mandate the type of training or how often anymore than how many times a minute you're allowed to blink your eyes.

I spent 30+ years in accounting and finance...I understand cost...and I'm sorry...I'm just not buying into the $2 grand argument - no offense but I really think you are overblowing the "cost" out of proportion more than a little.

Including the cost of the firearm doesn't make sense...of course a person who is going to carry has to have a firearm but that has zero to do with whether there is or isn't a permit process at all. Trying to tie the cost of the weapon to the permit process is just not appropriate, not logical and not the way one calculates that cost of an activity.

Yes...there is time involved. Is the process inconvenient; yes. Do I wish we had the option of Constitutional Carry; yes. Can I reasonably and rationally put a $ figure on the time I spent...not really and even if I could, I don't think it truly adds anything important to the argument.

I did all my class time, DMV time, driving time, etc on my free time...I freely chose to spend that free time in that endeavor which is how I suspect most HCP holders do. However, the "time" is going to pass regardless of what I do during that time...I could have slept the same number of hours but I wouldn't say that sleeping "cost" me "X" $$$. Unless I'm actually spending time that would otherwise be earning me more money then trying to put a $ figure on it is just not reasonable unless you are going to price out everything you do in life in the same way.

[GlockSpock]

I spent 30+ years in accounting and finance...I understand cost...and I'm sorry...I'm just not buying into the $2 grand argument - no offense but I really think you are overblowing the "cost" out of proportion more than a little.

Including the cost of the firearm doesn't make sense...of course a person who is going to carry has to have a firearm but that has zero to do with whether there is or isn't a permit process at all. Trying to tie the cost of the weapon to the permit process is just not appropriate, not logical and not the way one calculates that cost of an activity.

Yes...there is time involved. Is the process inconvenient; yes. Do I wish we had the option of Constitutional Carry; yes. Can I reasonably and rationally put a $ figure on the time I spent...not really and even if I could, I don't think it truly adds anything important to the argument.

I did all my class time, DMV time, driving time, etc on my free time...I freely chose to spend that free time in that endeavor which is how I suspect most HCP holders do. However, the "time" is going to pass regardless of what I do during that time...I could have slept the same number of hours but I wouldn't say that sleeping "cost" me "X" $$$. Unless I'm actually spending time that would otherwise be earning me more money then trying to put a $ figure on it is just not reasonable unless you are going to price out everything you do in life in the same way.

I agree. If the opportunity cost of taking the class is taking a day off work without pay, then you could arguably equate a monetary cost. However, I took my class on the weekend, my only opportunity cost was 1 hour of sleep, and whatever else I could and would have done in that time period. Since I don't work weekends, the opportunity cost was low. Add a bit for gas and the class, about $100 plus sleep. Then the fee for the permit, a bit over $200 total. I spent more on my holster.

[Fallguy]

Yeah, I didn't have to take off work either, but even if I had I didn't make anywhere near $75/hr in 1987 (or now for that matter). You don't have to own a firearm to take the class, you can borrow one from someone or some places rent them or my guess is most people already own one. I would guess it would be a very small majority that purchase a handgun just for taking the class.

JayC it may have cost you around $2000 but I don't think it is going to cost the majority of people anywhere near that much. That being said, I'm like Robert...IMO no one should have to get a permit in the first place.

[Guest RCLARK]

I agree with the $200 +/- number. My class was $75, ammo $20, DMV $115. Additional fuel.....maybe $20. If you count the cost of the gun, holster, etc then your are assuming those are of no additional value. A good example would be the $2,000 worth of tools I have in my shop at home. Saves me money every time I use them. I don't have to depend one someone else to fix my stuff. Owning that gun may not save you money....but it will darn sure save you having to depend on someone else to save your life. The time spent is just a simple matter of choice. We all have wasted time that we could, I suppose, place a value on. Could probably make $50 rather than watching Justified tonight.....but I probably won't.

[Guest 270win]

That 2,000 dollars is a high estimate. I spent 100 for my first class and then about 150 for my licensing fees. My class was a little time after work. My instructor even fingerprinted me, notarized everything, and reviewed my application when I went to qualify on the range after work. Maybe 275 if I include some ammo and gas? I spent only 50 bucks in Tennessee. That was nice not having to get fingerprinted or take a class. I already had a handgun, holster, mags for several years so that wasn't a cost.

[JayC]

In my profession I work 6 days a week, if I have to run to the DMV that is time I'm not billing to a customer So it is lost $$$ on my part...

To your point, if I choose to take time off of work and do something that I want to do, that does have a cost associated with it, but that cost is my choice... When I take a week off of work to go on a vacation, I choose to give up billable hours for that week.

Having to go and give up billable hours to meet some silly and useless requirement dictated by the state is not voluntary, and therefore I don't see as me freely choosing... So there is a big difference in my mind from choosing to go to the range to blow off some steam, and being forced to jump through hoops by the state to get a carry permit.

As for my cost accounting... price A $500-600 vs price B $2300-2400 is the cost difference between the money I pay in a constitutional carry state vs TN for the tools and permits required to defend myself.

I have a buddy who wants his carry permit, he makes about $40k a year, but has to take vacation days to go to the HCP class, that is real money out of his pocket, because otherwise he would bank the vacation days and take a cash payout at the end of the year. In his case that is 3 vacation days to get his permit. That is real money out of his pocket for something he doesn't need.

I spent 30+ years in accounting and finance...I understand cost...and I'm sorry...I'm just not buying into the $2 grand argument - no offense but I really think you are overblowing the "cost" out of proportion more than a little.

Including the cost of the firearm doesn't make sense...of course a person who is going to carry has to have a firearm but that has zero to do with whether there is or isn't a permit process at all. Trying to tie the cost of the weapon to the permit process is just not appropriate, not logical and not the way one calculates that cost of an activity.

Yes...there is time involved. Is the process inconvenient; yes. Do I wish we had the option of Constitutional Carry; yes. Can I reasonably and rationally put a $ figure on the time I spent...not really and even if I could, I don't think it truly adds anything important to the argument.

I did all my class time, DMV time, driving time, etc on my free time...I freely chose to spend that free time in that endeavor which is how I suspect most HCP holders do. However, the "time" is going to pass regardless of what I do during that time...I could have slept the same number of hours but I wouldn't say that sleeping "cost" me "X" $$$. Unless I'm actually spending time that would otherwise be earning me more money then trying to put a $ figure on it is just not reasonable unless you are going to price out everything you do in life in the same way.

[DaveTN]

Those thousands of dollars number are preposterous.

However, the realistic $250 number is very high if you are poor or are a mother with children fleeing an abusive husband/boyfriend that is trying to kill you. Some people just can’t afford the price the state of Tennessee has put on their life.

[RobertNashville]

Those thousands of dollars number are preposterous.

However, the realistic $250 number is very high if you are poor or are a mother with children fleeing an abusive husband/boyfriend that is trying to kill you. Some people just can’t afford the price the state of Tennessee has put on their life.

Whatever the cost is; don't you think that is a bit moot if they've waited until that point that the need it NOW?

[Oh Shoot]

Whatever the cost is; don't you think that is a bit moot if they've waited until that point that the need it NOW?

Well she can still shoot the bastrd without a permit. As long as she doesn't get caught with it before, she won't be charged with it when she uses it in a good shoot.

One good thing in TN, at least illegal carry is only a Class A meanor at worst. It's a felony in x number of states.

- OS

Edited March 21, 2012 by OhShoot

[JayC]

Whatever the cost is; don't you think that is a bit moot if they've waited until that point that the need it NOW?

People make poor choices, they shouldn't be punished by the government for failing to pay for a god given right ahead of the time they need that god given right to protect themselves. Nobody is suggesting the government provide them a weapon, only that the government get out of the way.

[JayC]

Those thousands of dollars number are preposterous.

However, the realistic $250 number is very high if you are poor or are a mother with children fleeing an abusive husband/boyfriend that is trying to kill you. Some people just can’t afford the price the state of Tennessee has put on their life.

Bahh my point is the cost is more than the class and the permit... I make a good living, so my cost is higher than a single mother working 2 jobs trying to make ends meet.

But, even for that single mother the cost is a lot more than $250... It's 3 days off of work for her... 1 to take the class, 1 to visit them DMV to apply, and 1 to go get her fingerprints taken... Maybe if she lives in a big city where there are places that take fingerprints without appointment she can shorten that to 2 days off of work, but that is still 16 hours of work she's lost... even at $15 an hour, that is another $240-250 dollars added to the cost of the permit.

That is assuming if she's running from her abusing husband, it doesn't take her 3 or 4 weeks to get those 2 days off of work without costing her the job.

I know hourly employees I work with on a regular basis who can't afford to take 2 days off of work to go get the permit, let alone the money for the permit... The cost of the permit is so high... it shouldn't cost $50 for a life time permit.

[RobertNashville]

People make poor choices, they shouldn't be punished by the government for failing to pay for a god given right ahead of the time they need that god given right to protect themselves. Nobody is suggesting the government provide them a weapon, only that the government get out of the way.

No one is punishing anybody...my point was that poor choices very often led to bad consequences and that will always be true whether the government is involved or not.

Edited March 21, 2012 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

Bahh my point is the cost is more than the class and the permit... I make a good living, so my cost is higher than a single mother working 2 jobs trying to make ends meet.

But, even for that single mother the cost is a lot more than $250... It's 3 days off of work for her... 1 to take the class, 1 to visit them DMV to apply, and 1 to go get her fingerprints taken... Maybe if she lives in a big city where there are places that take fingerprints without appointment she can shorten that to 2 days off of work, but that is still 16 hours of work she's lost... even at $15 an hour, that is another $240-250 dollars added to the cost of the permit.

That is assuming if she's running from her abusing husband, it doesn't take her 3 or 4 weeks to get those 2 days off of work without costing her the job.

I know hourly employees I work with on a regular basis who can't afford to take 2 days off of work to go get the permit, let alone the money for the permit... The cost of the permit is so high... it shouldn't cost $50 for a life time permit.

Unless someone is working some very strange hours I don't see why anyone would need to take time off work??

I did everything I had to do in my OFF HOURS. I took a Saturday class (Friday nights and Sundays were also available if I had wanted to do it then); the class was 9 hours including our meal break...it took me less than 15 minutes get my fingerprints taken and my time at the DMV, while tedious, was done late afternoon after work so I don't know why anyone would need two, let alone three days off work to get it done. I DO agree with you in principle that any law-abiding citizen should be able to carry without being required to have a HCP but it seems to me you are REALLY straining to make the HCP process a lot more costly and painful that it is.

If you really dislike the permit process as much as you seem to then I hope you are spending at least as much time being politically active to get the law changed as you are spending time posting about it.

Edited March 21, 2012 by RobertNashville

[DaveTN]

Whatever the cost is; don't you think that is a bit moot if they've waited until that point that the need it NOW?

Sometimes you can’t plan for things like that. My point is that they shouldn’t need to buy a privilege from the state; the state should recognize it as an unalienable right.

One good thing in TN, at least illegal carry is only a Class A meanor at worst. It's a felony in x number of states.

Until they get this new legislation passed (addressing “Intent to go armedâ€) it can be a felony in this state. I went through this when I was turned down for a purchase because of a gun charge over 20 years ago in Illinois. I told TBI that the charges were dismissed, and even if they weren’t it was a misdemeanor and would not keep me from purchasing a gun. They told me “It could be a felony in Tennessee, so we have to look at it.â€

[JayC]

Unless someone is working some very strange hours I don't see why anyone would need to take time off work??

I did everything I had to do in my OFF HOURS. I took a Saturday class (Friday nights and Sundays were also available if I had wanted to do it then); the class was 9 hours including our meal break...it took me less than 15 minutes get my fingerprints taken and my time at the DMV, while tedious, was done late afternoon after work so I don't know why anyone would need two, let alone three days off work to get it done. I DO agree with you in principle that any law-abiding citizen should be able to carry without being required to have a HCP but it seems to me you are REALLY straining to make the HCP process a lot more costly and painful that it is.

If you really dislike the permit process as much as you seem to then I hope you are spending at least as much time being politically active to get the law changed as you are spending time posting about it.

Oh I bug the tar out of my state senator... I try and have a face to face meeting with him 2 or 3 times a year... my state rep is another story, I live in Beth Harwell's district, the RINO who is blocking virtually all pro-gun laws today... but I did actively campaign against her last time around

[Fallguy]

Sometimes you can’t plan for things like that. My point is that they shouldn’t need to buy a privilege from the state; the state should recognize it as an unalienable right.

Agree

Until they get this new legislation passed (addressing “Intent to go armedâ€) it can be a felony in this state. I went through this when I was turned down for a purchase because of a gun charge over 20 years ago in Illinois. I told TBI that the charges were dismissed, and even if they weren’t it was a misdemeanor and would not keep me from purchasing a gun. They told me “It could be a felony in Tennessee, so we have to look at it.â€

There are situations/locations can be a felony, but in general, if you are not prohibited from buying a firearm in TN, then possession without a permit is a misdemeanor.

As far as defining "intent to go armed" there is this bill HB3499/SB3324 http://wapp.capitol.tn.gov/apps/BillInfo/Default.aspx?BillNumber=SB3324

I haven't seen the video...so I'm not sure what the amendment is they discussed.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Fallguy

[Oh Shoot]

Until they get this new legislation passed (addressing “Intent to go armedâ€) it can be a felony in this state. I went through this when I was turned down for a purchase because of a gun charge over 20 years ago in Illinois. I told TBI that the charges were dismissed, and even if they weren’t it was a misdemeanor and would not keep me from purchasing a gun. They told me “It could be a felony in Tennessee, so we have to look at it.â€

It's just one of the stock answers when you're denied for ANY charge that still shows as unresolved. Doesn't matter if it were a disqualifying offense or not.

It nevertheless is a fact that even if convicted multiple times for unlawful carry/possession in TN, it remains a Class A misdemeanor.

- OS