Carry without a permit

[timcar86]

I was talking with a coworker today about carrying and he asked about taking a gun from the car to the range without a permit. Can you do this while carrying ammo as well? I have a HCP so I've never really considered this question.

[GS455]

As long as it's not loaded and the hand gun is separated (someone define) from the ammo.

Edited March 18, 2012 by GS455

[TMF]

If a police officer arrests him for carrying a pistol and his ammunition from his car to the table at the range I promise to pay for his legal defense. This is something that just isn't going to happen.

[timcar86]

I kind of figured that but I guess anywhere else would be illegal?

[BigK]

I believe the text in red is what you are looking for. It was my understanding from HCP class that if you don't have an HCP, subsection (1) must be satisfied at ALL times when transporting in a vehicle. In (4) "Incident to" was explained to mean "while engaged in", like while in the field hunting or at the range shooting. This does not cover "while on the way to".

39-17-1308. Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon.

(a) It is a defense to the application of § 39-17-1307 if the possession or carrying was:

(1) Of an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealed on or about the person and the ammunition for the weapon was not in the immediate vicinity of the person or weapon;

(2) By a person authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351;

(3) At the person's:

(A) Place of residence;

( Place of business; or

© Premises;

(4) Incident to lawful hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or other lawful activity;

Edited March 18, 2012 by BigK

[Guest RCLARK]

It would likewise be legal for him to carry a handgun and ammunition from the gun store to his home. Same concept. I would imagine there are tons of similar situations. As long as the intent is transportation and not to arm himself.

[TMF]

I kind of figured that but I guess anywhere else would be illegal?

"Intent to go armed."

There aren't too many places that someone without a HCP would be able to explain having a firearm and ammunition together, but off the top of my head: hunting, gun store, range, gun show and so on. So long as you're doing the right thing and have a reasonable explanation I don't see there being a problem.

[timcar86]

Thanks guys.

[Fallguy]

I believe the text in red is what you are looking for. It was my understanding from HCP class that if you don't have an HCP, subsection (1) must be satisfied at ALL times when transporting in a vehicle. In (4) "Incident to" was explained to mean "while engaged in", like while in the field hunting or at the range shooting. This does not cover "while on the way to".

39-17-1308. Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon.

(a) It is a defense to the application of § 39-17-1307 if the possession or carrying was:

(1) Of an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealed on or about the person and the ammunition for the weapon was not in the immediate vicinity of the person or weapon;

(2) By a person authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351;

(3) At the person's:

(A) Place of residence;

( Place of business; or

© Premises;

(4) Incident to lawful hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or other lawful activity;

This...and to add

39-17-1301. Part definitions.

As used in this part, unless the context otherwise requires:

(18) "Unloaded" means the rifle, shotgun or handgun does not have ammunition in the chamber, cylinder, clip or magazine, and no clip or magazine is in the immediate vicinity of the weapon.

[CQB Elite]

If a police officer arrests him for carrying a pistol and his ammunition from his car to the table at the range I promise to pay for his legal defense. This is something that just isn't going to happen.

^^^ This!

I'm a former LEO. If an officer charges anyone for this then it is because they are already under arrest for something else and the officer is stacking charges OR an investigative unit (narc, homicide, robbery) has asked the officer to detain someone till they can get there to talk with them and this was the only thing the officer could come up with on the spur of the moment.

[AU2009]

I had always heard it was the three step rule. It may vary from state to state, I have lived in TN KY LA and AL so I can't remember where I was told this. You have to have multiple steps to load your gun. Best way is to keep the gun and ammo separate, not within reach while driving. If you have single cab PU then keep the gun with a lock on it.

[Fallguy]

I had always heard it was the three step rule. It may vary from state to state, I have lived in TN KY LA and AL so I can't remember where I was told this. You have to have multiple steps to load your gun. Best way is to keep the gun and ammo separate, not within reach while driving. If you have single cab PU then keep the gun with a lock on it.

I have heard of states that refer to a 3 step rule, but I don't think TN is one.

[JayC]

As long as it's not loaded and the hand gun is separated (someone define) from the ammo.

The firearm must be out of reach from the driver and any passengers, and the firearm and ammo out of reach of reach other.

[JAB]

The way I read the OP, timcar86 was not asking about transporting a loaded firearm in one's vehicle to the range without an HCP. Instead, the way I read it, he was asking about the actual walk from the car (parked in the parking area/lot for the range) to the range, proper while carrying both a firearm and ammo. Therefore, my non-lawyer opinion would be that such activity would be covered by and okay under:

39-17-1308. Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon.

(a) It is a defense to the application of § 39-17-1307 if the possession or carrying was:

(4) Incident to lawful hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or other lawful activity;

Edited March 19, 2012 by JAB

[JayC]

If a police officer arrests him for carrying a pistol and his ammunition from his car to the table at the range I promise to pay for his legal defense. This is something that just isn't going to happen.

See as shooting sports is a legal defense to be armed, I don't see how an officer makes a charge under those conditions stick.

[Fallguy]

I have always taken the "incident to" to mean while you are engaged in the activity...not before or after....

Otherwise people could have a loaded firearm and always say they are on the way to sports shoot, hunt, etc....

Also this is just my take...but I've always taken the camping or at least for sure fishing to mean a defense against having a knife with a blade over 4" not so much a firearm. Not really sure how you would use a firearm to fish.

[Oh Shoot]

.... Not really sure how you would use a firearm to fish.

True. Pros use dynamite.

- OS

[JayC]

I have always taken the "incident to" to mean while you are engaged in the activity...not before or after....

Otherwise people could have a loaded firearm and always say they are on the way to sports shoot, hunt, etc....

Also this is just my take...but I've always taken the camping or at least for sure fishing to mean a defense against having a knife with a blade over 4" not so much a firearm. Not really sure how you would use a firearm to fish.

Well since it's only a defense, I'm pretty sure a DA could charge you, and leave ti to the jury to decided whether it was incident to...

I'd refer to having an unloaded firearm, and ammo in a bag walking from your car into a shooting range as incident to a shooting sport. How else is somebody without a HCP supposed to legally transport the firearm and ammo from their vehicle to the range?

Also, not everybody has a car, so carrying an unloaded firearm with ammo from your home to the local range on a bike or by walking is illegal? The travel to and from the range is incident to the activity of sports shooting.

[Fallguy]

Well since it's only a defense, I'm pretty sure a DA could charge you, and leave ti to the jury to decided whether it was incident to...

I'd refer to having an unloaded firearm, and ammo in a bag walking from your car into a shooting range as incident to a shooting sport. How else is somebody without a HCP supposed to legally transport the firearm and ammo from their vehicle to the range?

Also, not everybody has a car, so carrying an unloaded firearm with ammo from your home to the local range on a bike or by walking is illegal? The travel to and from the range is incident to the activity of sports shooting.

Well I think you make the most important point in that it is only a defense.

I wouldn't think most DAs would charge someone walking or biking to the range as long as the firearm wasn't actually loaded. But if you had a loaded shotgun next to you while you were fishing...that might be something different.

[Fallguy]

True. Pros use dynamite.

- OS

[Guest infinity40]

As much as I dislike trigger locks, put one on the gun you are transporting. It will save a lot of wear and tear on the officers nerves. It makes a huge visual statement.

[BigK]

It's sad that the people interested in NOT breaking these laws have hoops to jump through in the first place.

We all know who these laws were written to protect society from and law-abiding folks headed to the shooting range, a match, hunting, etc. ain't those people.

It's the hooligan driving around a seedy neighborhood at 1:00 in the morning 'looking for a place to test out' his new Jennings 9mm he 'aquired' recently.

[JayC]

Maybe not a loaded shotgun, but a loaded 22... I can see that... My answer would be snapping turtles and snakes... any reason to be armed incidental to fishing, or camping would be covered... including protecting the camp from wild animals.

Could bad people try and use this to carry around a loaded gun under guise of incidental to one of the above activities... sure... but just because somebody could abuse it, doesn't mean the defenses are not there for others who are carrying a firearm incidental to these activities.

Well I think you make the most important point in that it is only a defense.

I wouldn't think most DAs would charge someone walking or biking to the range as long as the firearm wasn't actually loaded. But if you had a loaded shotgun next to you while you were fishing...that might be something different.

[Guest 270win]

Yes, there is a defense incident to outdoor type activities. I'm sure it could be argued that on your way to/from hunting, fishing, or sport shooting is incident to those activities and no requirement to have unloaded and separate from ammo. The defense is a SEPARATE defense from having the gun unloaded.

A lot of people carry firearms while fishing for snakes. Yes it may not be legal at some parks, because of the park law, but it would be hard to convict someone on a lake or in a boat with a fishing rod for 'intent to go armed'.

The outdoor activity defense is just another defense like a handgun carry permit.

Edited March 20, 2012 by 270win

[DaveTN]

Maybe not a loaded shotgun, but a loaded 22... I can see that... My answer would be snapping turtles and snakes... any reason to be armed incidental to fishing, or camping would be covered... including protecting the camp from wild animals.

Could bad people try and use this to carry around a loaded gun under guise of incidental to one of the above activities... sure... but just because somebody could abuse it, doesn't mean the defenses are not there for others who are carrying a firearm incidental to these activities.

Making that argument in court will cost a lot more than an HCP. Court and lawyers are very expensive.