Anyone heard from Frank at ETS????

[Marswolf]

I don't want to get into responding point for point.

Again, I came into the situation after it was over. I keep mentioning this not because I'm concerned with legalities, but to say that I think I am objective in this and see some of both sides.

What I come up with is that no one among the admins and mods thinks that Frank is a bad guy who was trying to pull something over on anyone. I think he was close to being a friend of some of the guys in middle Tennessee. I certainly held no animosity toward him and saw him as an asset to the board.

OTOH, Tennessee code requires that a lottery (legally read raffle) must be held by a non-profit organization approved by the legislature for their benefit, not for them. What Frank was doing seems to me to be clearly illegal. YMMV. The board ownership, I think, decided they had to remove themselves from this illegal activity, as I read them. Under legal advice, that I completely concur with, they also removed Franks company as a vendor. Legally you have to make a complete break or you become complicit.

IMHO, the events immediately after TGO rescinded Frank's vendor status actually made Frank subject to federal racketeering charges. Absolving himself of any activity in this, as I understand this, is the first proper move he has made. I congratulate his wisdom.

I think we all individually have no dislike of Frank. I think he made some very bad choices with the very best of intentions. But they were not legal. Need I repeat that?

As far as the board becoming too PC - I heartily agree. I don't like it. But the first post to this board's standards was that you shouldn't post what you can't see on TV. My problem is that some things removed can be seen daily on TV. I don't think "family entertainment" as I grew up with exists any more. Kids constantly educate me about sex.

My personal view is more liberal than that. But it isn't my board. I think we sometimes get a bit too much ass pucker here, but I think that is with the best of intentions and sometimes comes from youth or good intentions and not un-intelligence. So far, we are the best board I have seen that allows differing views. I think I've deleted a lot more of my posts than anyone else's, and none because they disagreed with me. There was the one massive Alabama troll deletion thing.

I hope Frank will come back. I think everyone here would love to see him return. But, OTOH, I think the board operators made the only sensible decision about how to handle the raffle thing.

I'll tell you all what I tell the combat Marines I train. It is imperative that you think and not emote. Keep your cool - always. Think things out and only then act. I think Yoda might have said that too.

[molonlabetn]

I stopped by and talked to Frank today and he saw you at the show. And evidently when you saw him you and the mrs. and Tungsten and his mrs. took a hard left and walked in the other direction. Although he did mention that redhead1911 waved to him. Uncertainty or not, deliberate avoidance is a good way to breed contempt. Tungsten is fully within his rights to make desicions concerning possible illegal activities on this site. Once those desicions are made however then deal with the consequences. An out of state Friends of the NRA chapter is now holding the raffle for the rifles that Frank has. Evidently your concerns are not unfounded or else he would still be doing the raffle. All that said, I got the feeling today that you guys deliberatly avoiding him left him questioning whether or not you had any balls.

I am aware that he saw me and the mrs. at the show, and you can bet that the last thing that I wanted to do was potentially disrupt the mood at his booth by having an uncomfortable meet & greet right there. I was just trying to put myself in his shoes... And as I alluded to before, how I feel personally about Frank has nothing to do with the necessary measures regarding the issues of TGO. So, I'd appreciate less accusation regarding my personal relationship with Frank vs. my duty to the TGO community. The hardest thing about the whole deal was knowing that there would be personal consequences... but I'll be damned before anybody accuses me of being ashamed of doing what was necessary (which was apparently legitimate, as you noted). I can't heal TGO's relationship with Frank, he has to want that to happen. But there's no doubt that I'll do whatever is necessary to initiate some healing personally, once this issue has passed. I really don't think that's anybody else's business though.

I was about to buy a few tickets myself before becoming aware of the legal aspect, and am far more disappointed in the idiotic laws of this state than I am in ETS's attempt to provide an awesome opportunity to get NFA toys. Trust me when I say that I personally researched every possible way for it to have been legal in an attempt to help, because I thought it was a great opportunity if doable. It couldn't have worked, and I'm in no position to place liability on TGO over a personal loyalty.

It's tough, but it's time to move on.

[TripleDigitRide]

I love this place, and everyone here. Well, except one.

[Smith]

So far I've heard that the Frank issue was a perception deal and then the higher ups get all bent out of shape when perception is not in their favor. 2nd the attitude that has been conveyed that we peons don't know the info so we should just shut up and mind our business, is condescending at best and makes it look even worse. this is however an info forum.

Some of us where involved and would like to know how this could have affected us as well. Today is the first I've seen of this here.

I've been in these situations and am currently in the middle of one and my best advice is to just let it go and let be what will be. Good or bad choices were made and you gotta live by that. If you're right no defense is needed. Getting bent out of shape only makes you look bad.

[Marswolf]

So far I've heard that the Frank issue was a perception deal and then the higher ups get all bent out of shape when perception is not in their favor.

I don't know about the admins and other folks, but my take on it is not perception, but interpretation of the law. And I'm damn good at that.

[Guest Boomhower]

I just glad to see this all finally come to a head. The guys that I talked with on this board a year ago, most of which are still around, did not care to hurt any feelings or question authority. Maybe we can kill 2 birds with one stone here. TGO gets it's balls back and we put this issue to rest, never to be brought back up like other yeag.......errrrr....other issues.

I still stand behind my previous comments and I have personally talked with other board members that feel the same as I do. I was personally asked for my opinions, and so I gave them. I would just like to see this all put to rest since it keeps getting brought up over and over, then a quick sweep under the rug. I understand the details will never be told, and that is fine by me. I'm glad that I am not personally involved.

And I think Nate said it well with the peon comments. Tungsten, Hornet Handler, if you continue to talk down to everyone on matters such as this and degrade everyone for their comments acting like you could care less if anyone was on here conversing or not, then you will succeed in pitting members against the admins and mods, and I don't think anyone wants to see that. There's a fine line between openly defending yourself and being condescending and arrogant......This may be a non issue, but it certainly has ruffled some feathers and the air needs to be cleared in some form or fashion without acting like this.

Discussions such as this are healthy, if comments are made with a cool head and a clean thought process.

[Guest Boomhower]

Nice, real nice. I see we've evolved here.

[R1100R]

It's been enlightening and educational.

[Mike.357]

sometimes it is best to unsay things ,LOL

Edited April 28, 2008 by Mike.357

[Guest price g]

Mike.357 '08

[towerclimber37]

I think That was hornet's way of being Non-pc.

anyhow...while you guys were arguing about this stupid crap that you can't change anyhow, I went to carters' gun range and instead of hanging out on the board (it WAS raining today..with thunder even!) I met up with StrickJ. That guy is neat! He showed me 2 unorthodox weapons that I would have normally dismissed. I bought one and want the other....

one was a kel-tek p32 with an extended magazine. That pistol is wicked awesome! I hadn't had a chance to shoot one until I shot Strick's pistol. its an excellent close in pistol and much better for a carry pistol for Julez than a 2 shot 22 mag derringer...so I had to buy one. If you guys think THIS conversation is hairy...wait till she finds out I bought it. I think I'm going to be wearing my ass between my shoulders for a couple of days (with her footprint squarely in the middle of it)

I JUST spent 900 bucks for a Uberti Yellowboy in .45 LC... wait till she finds that I spent 360 bucks for ammo, and extended mag and the ps32 for her...

I did get it for her, but I'll still catch hell for buying another pistol so soon and breaking one of my spending rules.

The other weapon that I want is also a Keltek..its a sub2000....go figure!!

I shot strickj's .40 cal... I like it! Mark@sea was looking for a good trunk monkey..I think this would fit the bill admirably! The .40 is a bit hard on recoil but it's totally manageable! Best of all, it folds up pretty dang compactly.

I also noticed that strick carries a shotgun in a tennis racket case.. do NOT ask him to play tennis, it would be a pretty short match!

This may throw a wrench into my getting that DPMS panther when I come home next month..but I'll be careful to put away some money and make sure Julez is happy so that I can get it.

[Rightwinger]

Damn Tower, don't post the REAL prices here. This is a public forum and you never know who will be reading it.

Julez, be nice to him, forgive him for he is only a mere male.

Tower, I got a cot that fits in one of those portable chair pouches like you see at the soccer games. You might need that. Swing by.

[Mike.357]

way to go Tower, nothing like buying a new gun or three, I know the feeling and it is a nice one. I am glad I do not have to face the wrath of "she who must be obeyed"

I sure wish you were here in Knoxville working on stuff. Life would be funner.

* credit to Dotsun for this line

[TGO David]

Hornet's comments have been removed from the thread and I'll be discussing it with him tomorrow.

[Mike.357]

price posted

Mike.357 '08

what?

[Mike.357]

Tungsten you all do a good , make that great job on this board.

In spite of all the crap don't let it lower standards or get you all down.

personally I think yall ought to offer an olive branch to Frank.

But do us all a favor and do it off the board, LOL

[TGO David]

As far as your invitation Tungsten....hmmmm......your newly married right?..........you think the wife would lend em to you for that long.

Oh, man. I'm sorry. I didn't realize I was dealing with someone in one of "those kind" of relationships. We'll talk again when you get a conjugal visit with your manhood.

PS: I'm thinking about buying a Glock. Can we hang out?

[Guest Hooker]

If this were an arguable topic, Id be all over it.

[TripleDigitRide]

I know how ones personal ideology can turn things into a heated discussion. Because of this, I still love all of you. You're my favorite bunch of gun nuts...errrrr....enthusiasts I've ever posted with. Still, with the exception of one.

Listen to this song a few times, you'll feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

[ame]http://youtube.com/watch?v=9ABY68mknSs[/ame]

Edited April 28, 2008 by TripleDigitRide

[Guest price g]

price posted

what?

Your my candidate this November, The call it like you see it guy:cool:

[molonlabetn]

So far I've heard that the Frank issue was a perception deal and then the higher ups get all bent out of shape when perception is not in their favor. 2nd the attitude that has been conveyed that we peons don't know the info so we should just shut up and mind our business, is condescending at best and makes it look even worse. this is however an info forum.

Some of us where involved and would like to know how this could have affected us as well. Today is the first I've seen of this here.

I've been in these situations and am currently in the middle of one and my best advice is to just let it go and let be what will be. Good or bad choices were made and you gotta live by that. If you're right no defense is needed. Getting bent out of shape only makes you look bad.

As Mars said, this was not at all about perception, it was about the law, and the liability TGO might face from sponsoring a profitable game of chance. That's it, period. The lack of details on this incident was intended simply to draw less attention to the member involved. There is nothing more to tell about it than anyone could research in the TCA gaming laws, or by consulting an attorney for themselves. The raffle is still active on several other forums, just not here.

As to general 'PCness' of TGO... that's a valid opinion, of course, but after checking for myself, there are remarkably few posts/threads which have ever been deleted, and barely a handful of 'Infractions' handed out (and very few more warnings). On the other hand, there have been many, many trolls show up who have been dealt with... many unbeknownst to most of you... so don't assume that the stated rules of conduct which are enforced are not enforced for the reason of being effective and even-handed for the good of the members and the perception of TGO to the community and prospective members. If you feel that you have been censored, please contact me by pm and I will be very reasonable in discussing it. As far as I am aware, the only area which is more or less strictly enforced is the Vendor area... and for obvious reasons.

[Mike.357]

hooker thats funny right there, I can tell you have been doing your homework here since signing on, LOL.

Thanks for the vote Price, LOL I may be a lot of things but a holder of the tongue is not one of them.

[Guest Boomhower]

ahhh....that's a better atmosphere.

[strickj]

Originally Posted by towerclimber37

I think That was hornet's way of being Non-pc.

anyhow...while you guys were arguing about this stupid crap that you can't change anyhow, I went to carters' gun range and instead of hanging out on the board (it WAS raining today..with thunder even!) I met up with StrickJ. That guy is neat! He showed me 2 unorthodox weapons that I would have normally dismissed. I bought one and want the other....

one was a kel-tek p32 with an extended magazine. That pistol is wicked awesome! I hadn't had a chance to shoot one until I shot Strick's pistol. its an excellent close in pistol and much better for a carry pistol for Julez than a 2 shot 22 mag derringer...so I had to buy one. If you guys think THIS conversation is hairy...wait till she finds out I bought it. I think I'm going to be wearing my ass between my shoulders for a couple of days (with her footprint squarely in the middle of it)

I JUST spent 900 bucks for a Uberti Yellowboy in .45 LC... wait till she finds that I spent 360 bucks for ammo, and extended mag and the ps32 for her...

I did get it for her, but I'll still catch hell for buying another pistol so soon and breaking one of my spending rules.

The other weapon that I want is also a Keltek..its a sub2000....go figure!!

I shot strickj's .40 cal... I like it! Mark@sea was looking for a good trunk monkey..I think this would fit the bill admirably! The .40 is a bit hard on recoil but it's totally manageable! Best of all, it folds up pretty dang compactly.

I also noticed that strick carries a shotgun in a tennis racket case.. do NOT ask him to play tennis, it would be a pretty short match!

This may throw a wrench into my getting that DPMS panther when I come home next month..but I'll be careful to put away some money and make sure Julez is happy so that I can get it

Glad to be of service,my bills in the mail

I second Mikes idea of closing this thread.Theres some nosy folks here that have opinions of something they know absolutely nothing about.I support the staffs decision,and understand why what was done.

Also,I see no staff getting any different treatment then the rest of us.I dont know where that came from.Although,every other BB(like thr,to name one)does have ars hole staff that do get different treatment which is why I post here and not there.Keep up the good work

Now,whos up for a game of tennis

[towerclimber37]

I know what you mean! no worries though, at least I'm in the best half of the state, and I'll be able to make the meet next month!!! yay me!

I'd also like to add to EVERYONE: hang in there. Don't let this stuff get you down!! Life throws curve balls..we just have to find the right mitts to catch them with. Don't have hard feelings guys...do that thing where we all practice de-escalation.

me? I'm gonna ignore what I can't change, shoot as much as I can, enjoy what I can on the board and make it a point to argue with Rabbi as much as possible!

Mike, I think Julie will get over it, next week, I'm putting almost 400 bucks towards my brother in law's .44 henry (mark's putting up the other half and the fees)....so I'll be wearing the footprint for awhile...it's gonna take 5 months just to get the rifle built! It should be beautiful when it's done!

I look forward to getting you to teach me the best formula for that 51 navy percussion pistol that mark's giving me...that'll be on the next meet.

much fun will be had!