Anyone heard from Frank at ETS????

[Marswolf]

Well, I can't speak to any hard feelings and how things were done, since I wasn't involved it that matter. However, I'm glad Frank has now turned the raffle over to another group. I'd say that whatever turmoil came with the TGO action, it did Frank a great favor. Sounds like it is set up the right way now.

Maybe Frank could start to dig the hole to bury the hatchet. I think Eddie has explained why they did not approach Frank. It doesn't sound to me like it was from lack of any testicular fortitude. Contact works both ways.

[Mike.357]

Frank made TGO a more interesting place to be and his input is sorely missed.

there, fixed that for ya

[R1100R]

Verbal Kint,

We all have opinions. I respect yours. That is what these boards are about. Just you out of curiosity, you mentioned sticking up for your brother. Is that person a moderator?

[Guest bkelm18]

Verbal Kint,

We all have opinions. I respect yours. That is what these boards are about. Just you out of curiosity, you mentioned sticking up for your brother. Is that person a moderator?

I believe Tungsten and VK are brothers.

[towerclimber37]

Tungsten and Verbal Kint are brothers. I don't think that even entered into the equation here. even if it did, I'd say that they both acted in the best interests of the board. That being said, I DO miss Franks' input!

I can understand his chagrin. this really IS a non issue guys.

I would hope that Frank will come back to the board as he is missed by us all.

[Guest Rando]

I was at the show mid-day on Sunday and talked to Frank for quite a while as did others, the only bad vibes I felt from him was that nothing was selling, so the afore mentioned turn away must have happened after that. I think it was handle a little wrong in dropping his vendor status and such, he should have been talked to about the raffle and had all of that ended if it was viewed as a possible problem. I understand that he was not banned from the site but still his toes were stepped on and it will be sore for a while, but the fact that someone that had something to do with it acted as they did at the show was a bit of bad judgement as I see it. I dont know what was exchanged between Admin. and Frank behind the TGO site and since it didnt involve me personnaly I gues it really isnt any of my buisness. I just think the members and such of this site and all like it need to stay tight for the world seems to be agin us and it helps greatly to have our TGO friends and family to lean on and learn from. I have picked up quite a bit from Frank in just a few meetings and appreciate the time he spent serving his country and his time sharing his knowledge on and off the board so I hope any hard feelings can be worked out.

just my two cents wanted or not, have a good day all, Rando;)

[Guest Boomhower]

I'm all ears.

Feel free to PM me privately if you would rather.

We all have opinions. Whether it be about this issue or something else on this board. I think your reading to far into my post, but since you asked.....

Personally, I think this whole issue smells from both ends. I do not know all the details, and I highly suspect that I never will. As others have stated, it does not directly involve me, so I should just keep my nose clean of it. However, each and every time this issue is brought up, the admin staff here at TGO feel the need to reiterate their position on this matter. Why?? A decision was made, and a mild explanation was given to the members. I personally did not agree with revoking Franks vendor status, but the decision was not mine to make. I was away from a computer the entire week that this raffle thread happened, so the only thing that I do know about is what happened afterwards. It just seems to me that a decision was made far to quickly. I understand TGO not wanting to be involved with all the legality aspects of the raffle, and that is fine, Verbal Kint has explained that part the clearest of anyone as to date, but revoking vendor status, which ultimately lead to Frank suspending himself from TGO (and rightfully so IMO) was a bit extreme I thought.

Futuremore, I think things are beginning to become to PC here on TGO. It appears to me that the one thing that we all hate the most, is now being imposed upon us. Big brother and censorship. I understand that you have to set out guidelines, and this is a family friendly board, but now we can't joke and carry on like we used to without having our post deleted. This has only recently started, and I don't see the concern behind it. And this is not the only thing that's been happening. The whole atmosphere of TGO has changed. I think people are afraid of being slapped on the wrist, therefore they are not posting like they use to. I know I'm not the only one seeing this, but I can only speak for myself.

TGO used to be a place where you could come and hang out of the evening or on the weekends and be post whores having a great time talking and ribbing each other. Now, you post something and if it doesn't get deleted, you may wait for 2 or more days to get a response. Didn't use to be that way, and that just tells me that a lot of the veterans of this site have lost interest, myself included.

With all of that being said, I'm only giving my opinion. Take and do with it as you wish. I still enjoy the TGO community, and a large number of the members in it, and for that reason, you will find me here daily if I am within arms reach of a computer, and have a few min. to spare. I know things change, but I really hope TGO can find it's roots again (whatever they might be). The same roots that drew me in when I joined back in March of 07.

[Guest utarch00]

That is unfortunate but purely his prerogative. I should note that he was never asked or told to leave TGO; we simply could not maintain that association with him in light of what our attorneys advised us were possible snares in that raffle.

To each his own, I guess.

I guess when you tell him you do not want to be associated with him, he takes that as you do not want him around. At least that is the way I would take it.

I stopped by and talked to Frank today and he saw you at the show. And evidently when you saw him you and the mrs. and Tungsten and his mrs. took a hard left and walked in the other direction. Although he did mention that redhead1911 waved to him.

This sounds certainly sounds like you do not want to be associated with him.

Honestly, what hatchet? You guys keep bringing personal feelings into this matter, all while hashing up an issue that's best left alone. The moderators have consistently stated that there was and is no ill will towards Frank and that they still welcome him here on the forums... just not in the vendor status that he once held. So again, what hatchet? If there is any animosity between the two parties, it doesn't lie here, and I'm not sure exists at all (until a party stands up and voices it themself).

It's really easy for me to stick up for my brother, as easy as it is for friends of Frank to stick up for Frank. But, as I said previously, let's leave personal feelings out of it and look at the facts.

The raffle idea involved gray areas, that were cautioned against when the board admin inquired about the legalities of the event. This site is personally owned and operated, and any potential repurcussions of illegal or questionable activities will come back and squarely bite the owner (Tungsten) in the ass. This website is housed and maintained at his place of employment through agreement with said employer. Ergo, not only is Tungsten put in a potentially liable condition... but so is his job for that matter, if the government (which it has all too cleary proven to do) chose to intervene and go on a witch hunt. Even if everything turned out A-OK, it still has an impact on the job environment. How would your employers react if the BATF, or other agencies, came knocking on the door because one of your hobbies may or may not have been involved in federal misconduct or at the very least questionable proceedings. I'm sure they'd love you for it!

Would you be willing to jeopardize your freedoms, occupation, and family's well-being on such a gray area -- let alone the continued operation of this forum for all of you to use? Would you even take the slightest chance of risking any of that??? I seriously hope not.

I'm sure Frank was on the up-and-up, and the raffle once fully conceived would/could be a good thing. I truly do. His past record here stands to support that. But when a legal professional warns you that you may be risking the site's wellbeing, as well as your own, it's time to sever the connection with that activity. Swiftly and effectively.

That's what TGO did. They pulled his vendor status, made a public statement saying that the raffle would not be honored here and that TGO had no part in it, and never once told Frank that he was unwelcome here or that he needed to leave.

Call it a CYA (Cover Your A$$) tactic, if you will.

If you still feel that Frank was wronged, or TGO acted out of line, you're entitled to your opinion. But stirring all of this up again is pointless. Guessing how one side or the other feels really holds no water, and just further fuels the fire. If Frank wants to comment, awesome. If he want's to come back, awesome! I, also, really enjoyed his posts and found them worthwhile. If he want's to distance himself, I personally think it's a shame... but totally understand and honor that decision as well.

Let's not keep re-hashing this issue and making it into something it's not. There's a lot of rumors being generated from this, second hand information being tossed around, and very few people know the entire details. Heck, I don't even know the full story.

Let it rest and move on.

It certainly sounds like you are bringing feelings into it, since a blood relative is involved. Don't get me wrong, I would stand behind my brother, too. I don't think anyone is saying that the admin shouldn't cover their butts, but I think they should have contacted Frank, privately, voiced their concerns and let him pull the plug, and nobody's feelings would have gotten hurt. I think we all also appreciate what the admin is doing to keep up this board and I would not want them to get in trouble with Federal heat.

We all have opinions. Whether it be about this issue or something else on this board. I think your reading to far into my post, but since you asked.....

Personally, I think this whole issue smells from both ends. I do not know all the details, and I highly suspect that I never will. As others have stated, it does not directly involve me, so I should just keep my nose clean of it. However, each and every time this issue is brought up, the admin staff here at TGO feel the need to reiterate their position on this matter. Why?? A decision was made, and a mild explanation was given to the members. I personally did not agree with revoking Franks vendor status, but the decision was not mine to make. I was away from a computer the entire week that this raffle thread happened, so the only thing that I do know about is what happened afterwards. It just seems to me that a decision was made far to quickly. I understand TGO not wanting to be involved with all the legality aspects of the raffle, and that is fine, Verbal Kint has explained that part the clearest of anyone as to date, but revoking vendor status, which ultimately lead to Frank suspending himself from TGO (and rightfully so IMO) was a bit extreme I thought.

Futuremore, I think things are beginning to become to PC here on TGO. It appears to me that the one thing that we all hate the most, is now being imposed upon us. Big brother and censorship. I understand that you have to set out guidelines, and this is a family friendly board, but now we can't joke and carry on like we used to without having our post deleted. This has only recently started, and I don't see the concern behind it. And this is not the only thing that's been happening. The whole atmosphere of TGO has changed. I think people are afraid of being slapped on the wrist, therefore they are not posting like they use to. I know I'm not the only one seeing this, but I can only speak for myself.

TGO used to be a place where you could come and hang out of the evening or on the weekends and be post whores having a great time talking and ribbing each other. Now, you post something and if it doesn't get deleted, you may wait for 2 or more days to get a response. Didn't use to be that way, and that just tells me that a lot of the veterans of this site have lost interest, myself included.

With all of that being said, I'm only giving my opinion. Take and do with it as you wish. I still enjoy the TGO community, and a large number of the members in it, and for that reason, you will find me here daily if I am within arms reach of a computer, and have a few min. to spare. I know things change, but I really hope TGO can find it's roots again (whatever they might be). The same roots that drew me in when I joined back in March of 07.

Well said Boomhower. I certainly have not been here as long as others, but since I have been here the atmosphere has changed. You can not go anywhere on this board without seeing a Legal Disclaimer everywhere, but it is a necessary evil for the admin to cover their butt. I still enjoy this place and would like to for a very long time.

[R1100R]

I am new to this board. But I have noticed that if you are a moderator you receive

different treatment. Not so much in the last week. I really like this board.

+1 on the last two post.

Edited April 27, 2008 by R1100R

[Rightwinger]

They went and saw a lawyer, now there is trouble.

Mr. Spock would say:

Lawyers = Evil

(sorry to our 2A friendly lawyers who post here)

[Guest bkelm18]

Wow, a lot of people here seem to be making a mountain out of a mole hill about something they know absolutely nothing about.... As Tungsten has stated before, this board is not a democracy, it is a privately owned board and the owner(s) can do what they wish if they think it's in their best interest. My vote: drop it. You probably don't know the whole story and you probably never will. So just let it go and move on.

[Smith]

The problem with lawyers, and I've been in these situations, is that they are completely selfish in their counsel. By that i mean they don't care about others on the other end. When your dealing with friends there are nuisances that have to be accounted for that the law doesn't recognize.

I don't really know either side, but it seems that one side went black and right on a gray issue and then the other side responded in kind. Personally I think they were both extreme, but hindsight is 20/20. If it were me, I don't know that i could have handled it differently. You know what they say, everyone's and expert except those involved. Good luck to everyone involved in mending fences.

PS - Maybe TGO could ease up a bit on the legalities, disclaimers, etc., etc. and wrap all that up in the user agreement.

[Rightwinger]

So if you do something and for whatever reason, you disappear from here you wouldn't want the people who have developed a friendship with you to wonder why, to seek answers??

I agree that this is a privately held board, but on the very, very PUBLIC internet. When you put your stuff out there for everyone to see, it looses some of its private features.

Think of it this way, you and your wife can do what ever you want in your bedroom and if someone looks in, they are a peeping tom.

If you do the same things in the backyard, or a public park, everyone looking at you then are WITNESSES

To me, TGO was correct in wanting to ensure they would not incur the wrath of the boots, er.....BATF. Frank was fine in wanting to handle a NFA transfer. The problem was the raffle which both parties had issues with. That and running to fast to come to what they thought was a "best decison". Ask 5 lawyers a question and you get 5 different answers and one of them asked one of the other 5 in back channel discussions and got a different answer that time!

What it boils down too is pride now. Tungsten should personally ask Frank to come back. Frank should come back. Lawyers should be put back on hold/retainer till next issue comes up.

Back to the race

[Fallguy]

I am new to this board. But I have noticed that if you are a moderator you receive

different treatment. Not so much in the last week. I really like this board.

+1 on the last two post.

I'm curious as to what different treatment you think the moderators receive.

[TGO David]

All that said, I got the feeling today that you guys deliberatly avoiding him left him questioning whether or not you had any balls.

I wouldn't know Frank from Adam. So I never saw him at the show nor did I even spot his booth. So, if you have any further questions about my balls I'd gladly let you inspect them up close.

In the meantime, thanks for jumping to conclusions.

[Rightwinger]

wow

[TGO David]

What it boils down too is pride now. Tungsten should personally ask Frank to come back. Frank should come back. Lawyers should be put back on hold/retainer till next issue comes up.

Back to the race

Your assumptions are really starting to piss me off. Just so we're clear about that on the front end and there aren't any misconceptions about it.

Someone else pointed out that the membership at large does not and will not ever know the full details of what happened to cause us to distance TGO from ETS, Inc. That is a very clear, concise statement. It's not up for discussion and we are actually doing Frank a very big favor by keeping it that way. But apparently by taking the high road, we're also somehow subjecting ourselves to the scorn of a few disgruntled people here who think that we've gone all "Big Brother" or something. Give me a break. I guess it's true that no good deed goes unpunished.

TGO is not an Incorporation. We do not enjoy complete separation of personal liability from things said or done the way that a corporation and its corporate officers might. So it's a very safe statement to make when I say that I'm going to err on the side of safety each and every time something comes up that might somehow jeopardize the lives and livelihood of me or any of the moderators who volunteer their time to help provide a nice atmosphere to talk shop in. If that somehow rubs you the wrong way... tough. Start another forum. Run it however you want. Walk a few miles in our shoes, then bitch all you want about how we do things. Until then, your Monday Morning Quarterbacking is unappreciated and comes across as a complete slap in the face to all of us who pour our time and energy into TGO.

Finally, I'm not going to personally ask Frank to do anything. It's not my place to do that. I handled that matter as discretely and professionally as possible given the circumstances and given the need for TGO to publicly distance ourselves from what State law enforcement could have easily construed as being an illegal game of chance for profit.

Frank removed himself from TGO by his own free will and choice. He wasn't banned and nor was he so much as asked to leave. Yes, his vendor status was revoked but I refunded the $100 contribution he made to TGO with money out of my own pocket.

Somehow it still seems to me that we did the right thing despite the fact that you and a few others want to bitch about it. Perhaps you'd all be singing a different tune if it were YOU who were in our position or if it was YOUR money that was used to refund Frank's contribution to TGO.

And trust me... we don't even begin to break even with our operating expenses from member donations from month to month. We don't have money sitting around in a fund to do things like refund vendor donations. That was gas money. Grocery money. Money I could have used to buy ammo or clothes or paid a bill.

I've said all I'm going to say about this issue. Anyone who doesn't appreciate what we're trying to do here or thinks they can do it better knows where the door is.

[Fallguy]

Well said Tungsten.

[TGO David]

One last parting thought...

MolonlabeTN made several attempts to get Frank to clarify the wording of the auction thread. Frank never complied. That's why we sought the counsel of an attorney who advised us to distance ourselves from that matter as quickly and thoroughly as possible.

Only then did we pull the plug. It was the prudent thing to do to protect ourselves and to ensure that there would still be a TGO for the people who enjoy being here. The alternative was to ignore the warnings and jeopardize everything.

The choice was clear and I am still very certain that we made the right decision.

[Mike.357]

yall are acting like a bunch of babies, I about can't stand it anymore.

I perfectly well know my options.

[TGO David]

Am I not supposed to be offended by the accusations being lodged against me and the moderators???

Someone needs to outline the rules of engagement for this sort of thing. Apparently I'm wrong for feeling the need to defend myself against some of the utter BS that's been posted about us.

[Mike.357]

wanted to add one more thing,

+1 to Boom's post

[Guest Jason F.]

Futuremore, I think things are beginning to become to PC here on TGO. It appears to me that the one thing that we all hate the most, is now being imposed upon us. Big brother and censorship...

TGO used to be a place where you could come and hang out of the evening or on the weekends and be post whores having a great time talking and ribbing each other. Now, you post something and if it doesn't get deleted, you may wait for 2 or more days to get a response. Didn't use to be that way, and that just tells me that a lot of the veterans of this site have lost interest, myself included.

I actually think you are fairly far off the mark on this. Maybe that is what you percieve or experinece but it is certainly not what I have experienced. More to the point none of the other members I know personally have ever expressed similar comments. I have been a member of the board since it was started. I registered within days of it going live and I have seen only minor changes in the feel of the board.

The changes I have seen are all for the better in my humble opinion. I have noticed increased vendor involvement both in offerings of sale items/services but also in intelligent discussion. I have seen an increase in member involvement in local meetings and events which I think is great. I have seen an increase of intelligent discussion about gun rights and the political issues going on in Tennessee. Those political discussions are not exactly looked upon favorably on most internet forums. In fact many forums go well out of their way to restrict and control such political discussions. I think it is outstanding that we can have those discussions here and I have seen very little moderator involvement as long as they remained civil.

I will admit I personally know Tungsten but we are certainly not close friends. I have seen or talked with him maybe a half a dozen times in about as many years. I do not feel that I cut him any proverbial slack just because I have meet him. With that said I have never seen him act in a manner I thought to be not in the best interest of the general membership of the board but I have seen him take a beating from small numbers of members who like to do nothing other than stir the pot over what amounts to a non issue. As an admin and moderator on boards for my other interests I can tell you it is a thankless pain in the butt job you only do because you really feel it benefits others.

I have left various internet boards over the years because their culture or general feel changed over time. I have seen boards fall apart due to internal debates and battles between bands of members. Trust me when I say TGO has very little of this and that is a good thing.

[Rightwinger]

Tungsten

You have Urse quoted as posting what I said about "its about Pride" and that I think you should ask Frank to come back. Just so that's clear, I said it, Urse did not.

Now, hopefully to fill in the context that we all know gets lost when posting text, with none of the feeling, gestures or other attributes we humans use to communicate. I think both sides of this were "correct" in their portion of what they saw and did. I also think it happend really fast and without the much needed communication between the parties before a final resolution was envoked. That being said, you have posted often that he was not asked to leave. The only thing that was needed was "distance" between TGO and Franks raffle. I think that was accomplished by both sides, just not here! Frank is still acting as the POC for the raffle but it will be conducted in a state where it is legal. TGO is safe from prosecution as the raffle will not be conducted here on this site or in this state. All is well except a core member is no longer here. All I asked that is if everything is as stated...why not ask him to rejoin us so that the whole place benefits. I hate to use the term "closure" as its reeks of PC to me but to talk to the guy costs you nothing. To have him back brings us a excellent source of info not easily accessed. It would finalize that there is no ill will between the parties and it would end this thread! Thats all I was asking and hoping for.

I've seen folks punted off sites for their beliefs (I am one, no longer allowed on 1911.org because I wouldn't change my screen name for a greek turd), for cursing, for racism, etc. Frank pulled out because of perception. Your upset now because of perception. How do you correct false perceptions?? You fill in the blanks with facts and actions that leave no room for interpretation.

He might never want to come back, that's his perview. I just think it would go a long way with everyone to say, no harm, no foul, lets get back to the business of posting about Glocks and 1911s with the occassional AOW question thrown in and have him available for comment.

I have used up all my big words today. I apologize if I have stepped on any toes or upset any apple carts. I just want it all reset to the day before it all happend.

RW

[Urse]

Your assumptions are really starting to piss me off. Just so we're clear about that on the front end and there aren't any misconceptions about it.

Someone else pointed out that the membership at large does not and will not ever know the full details of what happened to cause us to distance TGO from ETS, Inc. That is a very clear, concise statement. It's not up for discussion and we are actually doing Frank a very big favor by keeping it that way. But apparently by taking the high road, we're also somehow subjecting ourselves to the scorn of a few disgruntled people here who think that we've gone all "Big Brother" or something. Give me a break. I guess it's true that no good deed goes unpunished.

TGO is not an Incorporation. We do not enjoy complete separation of personal liability from things said or done the way that a corporation and its corporate officers might. So it's a very safe statement to make when I say that I'm going to err on the side of safety each and every time something comes up that might somehow jeopardize the lives and livelihood of me or any of the moderators who volunteer their time to help provide a nice atmosphere to talk shop in. If that somehow rubs you the wrong way... tough. Start another forum. Run it however you want. Walk a few miles in our shoes, then bitch all you want about how we do things. Until then, your Monday Morning Quarterbacking is unappreciated and comes across as a complete slap in the face to all of us who pour our time and energy into TGO.

Finally, I'm not going to personally ask Frank to do anything. It's not my place to do that. I handled that matter as discretely and professionally as possible given the circumstances and given the need for TGO to publicly distance ourselves from what State law enforcement could have easily construed as being an illegal game of chance for profit.

Frank removed himself from TGO by his own free will and choice. He wasn't banned and nor was he so much as asked to leave. Yes, his vendor status was revoked but I refunded the $100 contribution he made to TGO with money out of my own pocket.

Somehow it still seems to me that we did the right thing despite the fact that you and a few others want to bitch about it. Perhaps you'd all be singing a different tune if it were YOU who were in our position or if it was YOUR money that was used to refund Frank's contribution to TGO.

And trust me... we don't even begin to break even with our operating expenses from member donations from month to month. We don't have money sitting around in a fund to do things like refund vendor donations. That was gas money. Grocery money. Money I could have used to buy ammo or clothes or paid a bill.

I've said all I'm going to say about this issue. Anyone who doesn't appreciate what we're trying to do here or thinks they can do it better knows where the door is.

Could one of the "Moderators" please fix this post. The quote in said post is being attributed to me but is actually a quote of Rightwinger.

Originally intended to bring the tension between TGO Admin and ETS out in the open with hopes for a resolution. Who knew there was so much underlying animosity from other board members.

As far as your invitation Tungsten....hmmmm......your newly married right?..........you think the wife would lend em to you for that long.