Liquor Bartering? What Liquors Age Well?

[subsonic]

Yep. The aging process happens in wood barrels. Once it's in the bottle, it it what it is.

I've been told otherwise from a few purveyors I've done business with over the years. They all said bourbon is done once bottled, but that scotch can still improve. All I know is that the 40 year old blended I sampled was transcendental.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Can't answer any taste questions about PGA. I don't drink it. As far as getting drunk on it vs. Vodka your math looks right.

Be aware, that some labels of pga are lower in proof than others. All aren't 190.

Thanks Mike

My taste buds must be substandard, being able to tell the difference in taste between cheap and spensive bourbons and scotches but so far have not been able to decide that any one definitely tastes better or worse. However, having not consumed vodka for a decade or two and not consumed PGA for at least four decades, in the interests of science I will do the experiment and report back.

While grocery shopping this afternoon I obtained relevant experimental materials-- 750 ml Smirnoff 21 red label 80 proof, 750 ml Golden Grain PGA 190 proof, Key Lime juice, not-from concentrate orange juice, not-from-concentrate grapefruit juice, tomato juice, tobasco sauce and worcestershire sauce. Unfortunately forgot to get any koolaid. Am guessing for this experiment that ordinary sugared koolaid would be preferable to artificially flavored koolaid which has an even more noticeable chemical bug-poison aftertaste.

Never cared for sweet drinks, but in the interests of science will revisit the topic. Long ago played music at a bar which stocked fresh fruit and would make margueritas from fresh-squeezed lime, screwdrivers from fresh-squeezed oranges, etc. I recall those drinks having an entirely different (and better) taste than typical fare made with bar mixes. Am not much a juice drinker but perhaps the not-from-concentrate juices will work a little better.

It will take a few days to complete all experimental phases, because one's taste buds are gone after about one drink. The initial trial will be an A/B comparison between equally chilled (in the fridge) 1 oz vodka neat vs 1 oz diluted potency equivalent of PGA. To determine (1) Can a difference can be detected, and (2) If a difference is detected, does one taste "better" than the other.

Followed by subsequent-days trials of screwdrivers, vodka(or pga) salty dogs, bloody marys and vodka(or pga) gimlets. And koolaid if I get out for any by then, and it happens to taste good enough to choke down. Will not try gatorade, because that stuff doesn't taste fit to drink IMO.

[Sheepdog]

My opinion on the value of liquor post-SHTF is that it's going to be low. Not because people won't want it, but because every redneck with an old water heater, old radiator and some copper tubing is going to be making it.

Weed will probably be cheap too, for the same reason.

[Oh Shoot]

My opinion on the value of liquor post-SHTF is that it's going to be low. Not because people won't want it, but because every redneck with an old water heater, old radiator and some copper tubing is going to be making it.

Weed will probably be cheap too, for the same reason.

Well then by God it won't be all bad!

- OS

[Guest 270win]

Everclear will probably last longer than you will. It is bad stuff. I knew a guy in college that drank Everclear and Kool Aid that he carried around in his backpack.

[peejman]

My opinion on the value of liquor post-SHTF is that it's going to be low. Not because people won't want it, but because every redneck with an old water heater, old radiator and some copper tubing is going to be making it.

Weed will probably be cheap too, for the same reason.

[Guest 270win]

Nice song about everclear and describes it quite well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqNXSJW6uns

[JAB]

...because every redneck with an old water heater, old radiator and some copper tubing is going to be making it.

Heck, give me a couple of glass jugs, some water, sugar, some type of fruit and a few weeks and I'll be able to get happy. It won't have the same antiseptic properties, etc. as distilled alcohol but it will be able to improve moods.

Then, again, my dad made and ran 'shine in the Lookout Mountain area when he was younger. I first learned to make wine from him. He used the old country method that simply uses yeast that is already present for fermentation. He also did sort of an 'open' fermentation where he just covered the glass jar he was fermenting it in with a cloth secured with a rubber band to keep stuff out of it. I eventually started using cultured yeasts and a home-made setup intended to work similarly to the way a carboy works. Mine got higher alcohol contents using that method (I haven't made any wine in a couple of years) but his method would probably be easier to manage in a post-SHTF world. Anyhow, I had him describe the 'shine making process to me in pretty good detail, once, just in case I ever needed to know. I've never done it, myself, but based on the information I got from him, I think I could figure it out.

Edited March 16, 2012 by JAB

[Guest Lester Weevils]

The other day Old dad was reminiscing about making wine and beer. He never distilled any spirits, that he will admit to anyway. I don't keep sugar in the house but Bureau of Labor Statistics quotes Feb 2012 retail sugar at $0.71 per pound so perhaps as long as it stays that cheap a person might save money making his own booze? If a person had the time and interest? Assuming that energy and other requirements stay cheap enough?

OTOH, considering that booze raw materials might get scarce after the end of the world-- Unless you happened to be a farmer, would it make sense to warehouse hundreds of pounds of sugar and other raw materials, compared to warehousing the booze itself? As the story goes about the post-revolution whiskey rebellion-- Remote Appalachian farmers were growing more corn than they could eat, barter, or transport to market. It was more practical to warehouse, transport, and sell the excess bulky corn after conversion into compact whiskey.

Had wondered about booze impurities and found a couple of good sites explaining the factors. Interesting stuff--

http://homedistiller.org/ -- Has sections explaining common spirits impurities and how to avoid it.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Wine_fault -- Explanation of wine impurities.

====

Progress report on experiments PGA vs Vodka--

Last night attempted to compare the unadulterated taste of 80 proof Smirnoff vodka against Golden Grain 190 proof PGA diluted to 80 proof.

One ounce of 80 proof vodka should contain 0.4 oz ethanol. Alternately, assuming a 30 ml ounce, 12 ml of pure ethanol. To achieve the same ethanol concentration from 190 proof PGA, unless I messed up the calculation, one would mix 12.6 ml of PGA with 17.4 ml of H20 to acheive the same 0.4 oz ethanol per ounce of fluid. I am not good at measuring and do not have graduated cylinders for precise measurement. First tried using a set of stainless steel kitchen measuring cups and a set of stainless measuring spoons but it was not working well. So I found a cheap plastic 30 ml Robitussin cough syrup measuring cup in the pantry with various ml graduations, and used it as careful as was able.

Dispensed 30 ml Vodka into one shot glass and dispensed as close as I could guestimate 12.6 ml PGA, topped off with filtered H2O to a level of 30 ml, into a second shot glass. Stirred up the PGA + alcohol mix for awhile, but it MAY be more difficult than one would expect to get that pure an alcohol to fully mix with water. Dunno.

Took multiple comparative A/B small sips from each shot glass. Waiting a few minutes between sips to let the tongue settle toward baseline. Neither the vodka or dilute PGA had any obvious unpleasant chemical tastes. Both had mostly a pure alcohol taste. Surprisingly, the Smirnoff vodka tasted a little STRONGER than the dilute PGA. The Smirnoff had a more obvious anesthesia effect on the tongue and more of an "alcohol burn" of vapors rising from the back of throat into the nostrils.

I couldn't determine that one tasted better or worse, though the Smirnoff tasted "stronger". Both were quite tasteless except for basic alcohol taste.

After a half hour testing both ounces to completion, and a half hour wait-- Was wondering if I had messed up the dilution of the PGA, or alternately if the PGA actually has a "milder" taste than the vodka. So I did a second trial of 30 ml vodka, versus 15 ml PGA and 15 ml filtered H20. Which should have yielded about 95 proof dilute PGA vs 80 proof vodka.

On the second trial, the dilute PGA had a stronger impression of alcohol than the vodka, but the vodka still seemed to have more "taste" if that makes any sense. Sips of the vodka gave a stronger impression of drinking alcohol, and more "up in the nose" alcohol burn, though the "95 proof" PGA mix did seem more potent.

Maybe a PGA+water mix requires more vigorous mixing than I could do? Smirnoff advertises this vodka "triple distilled, ten times filtered". It would seem odd if generic watered-down PGA happened to be "chemically purer" than the Smirnoff. But at equivalent concentrations the PGA did seem more tasteless.

====

So tonight tried sample screwdrivers made with not-from-concentrate orange juice. Separate cups. One cup containing 4 oz orange juice and 30 ml vodka. The other cup containing about 12.6 ml PGA, topped off to 30ml with filtered water, and 4 oz orange juice. Modest sips on both cups tasted like orange juice as best I could tell. No alcohol taste, and both tasted the same.

So I added another 30 ml of vodka to one cup and 30 ml dilute PGA to the other. A stronger screwdriver. Could taste a bit of alcohol, but both seemed about the same.

Finally added a third 30 ml of vodka to one cup and 30 ml dilute PGA to the other. It was now easy to identify alcohol taste, but didn't taste "strong" in either sample. The vodka mix tasted "a little more alcoholic" than the PGA mix but neither had unpleasant taste.

After A/B working thru both drinks for about an hour, it is possible to tell a slight difference between them, but can't decide which one is better.

So far, the PGA seems to have less taste than the vodka. Wonder if that means that the vodka has more impurities than the PGA? Or that I've managed to screw up the measurement and dilution? Or maybe the Golden Grain sample really is not the advertised 190 proof?

Any suggestions ya'll have would be welcome.

[xRUSTYx]

VERY fascinated by your experiment Lester

[Mike.357]

I am not following why you are watering down the PGA, why not just use less of it? Or just use equal quantities in your cocktails?

Smirnoff has a distinct taste, which I am sure they take pride in. Most vodka's have a distinct taste. Other than price point therir individual taste is what sets them apart from the others.

Looking forward to more of your reviews.

[Moped]

I'd look more forward to partaking in your experiments!

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I am not following why you are watering down the PGA, why not just use less of it? Or just use equal quantities in your cocktails?

Smirnoff has a distinct taste, which I am sure they take pride in. Most vodka's have a distinct taste. Other than price point therir individual taste is what sets them apart from the others.

Looking forward to more of your reviews.

Thanks Mike

From the orange juice test, it is beginning to appear that presence or absence of "fill water" would be below my taste perception abilities, which are at best average. Adding fill water would seem silly and useless just drinking the stuff recreationally. Perhaps people with better taste perception could tell a difference.

I'm just winging it and perhaps the reasoning is flawed-- If attempting to taste-compare equal alcohol concentrations--

A drink prepared with 4 oz OJ and 1 oz 80 proof vodka would actually be-- 4 oz OJ, 0.4 oz ethanol, and 0.6 oz water = 5 oz total. If attempting to exactly match the alcohol dilution in a PGA equivalent, fill water seems necessary to match the dilution. Without the fill water the PGA sample would be 0.4 oz alcohol diluted in only 4.42 oz of mixed drink.

A PGA sample prepared without the extra water would have a slightly higher concentration of alcohol per oz of drink, so a person with good enough taste buds might confuse alcohol concentration with "taste difference" when comparing the two drinks.

That reasoning is based on previous experience with perceived audio quality A/B testing. If two audio samples happen to be identical except that one sample is slightly louder, then most test subjects will pick the louder identical copy as sounding "better". So in order to evaluate any actual perceivable differences between different audio samples, the audio amplitude must be precisely matched between both samples. Otherwise the test subjects will pick the loudest sample as "best" and ruin the test.

A/B testing in audio has distinctions that sometimes test subjects can't hear a difference. Sometimes test subjects can hear a difference but can't decide which sample sounds better. Other times subjects can hear a difference and also reliably identify a sample which sounds better to them. It is not uncommon for a "less technically perfect" signal to be judged "better" than a "more technically perfect" signal. For instance sometimes people will prefer certain kinds of mild distortion over a cleaner version of the same signal.

So it wouldn't be surprising if people's taste preferences in booze might not always be correlated with "chemical purity". Been years since I drank any vodka and it is surprising how "tasteless" the stuff is compared to other booze. Which might imply that ferinstance smirnoff is more chemically pure than tequila or gin, even if it does have intentional impurities to get a characteristic taste?

It was difficult to taste 1 oz of smirnoff in 4 oz orange juice. I'm maybe wrong, but believe that it would be pretty easy to taste 1 oz of gin, white tequila, or white rum in 4 oz orange juice. And a no-brainer tasting 1 oz of Wild Turkey, Jack Daniels, or Johnny Walker in the orange juice.

Was just thinking that if PGA contains much concentration of "bad" impurities that one would most likely be able to taste them, but dunno if that is the case.

[mav]

Lester, your calculations look fine, and it doesn't take much mixing to mix ethanol and water since they are totally miscible. However, I don't know how accurate your measuring apparatus is. I have never seen any household items that measure in 0.1 ml increments. I would say the taste or alcoholic feeling of the vodka vs. the dilute pga has to due with how it was distilled or any additives put in either product.

Just don't try any methanol in your experimentation.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Lester, your calculations look fine, and it doesn't take much mixing to mix ethanol and water since they are totally miscible. However, I don't know how accurate your measuring apparatus is. I have never seen any household items that measure in 0.1 ml increments. I would say the taste or alcoholic feeling of the vodka vs. the dilute pga has to due with how it was distilled or any additives put in either product.

Just don't try any methanol in your experimentation.

Thanks Mav. Definitely no methanol in the plans.

A few months ago went looking to buy some graduated cylinders but walmart doesn't have any in the kitchen goods and I asked the pharmacist at RiteAid, who not only said they don't stock em for sale, but gave me a suspicious look like why would I want such a thing?

Friday web-searching, found a school supply webstore that sells a fairly inexpensive set of student-grade graduated cylinders and will order some just because it bugs me not to be able to measure kinda-sorta accurately. Same reason I like scales and micrometers-- Just because. Don't think I need high-accuracy spensive pyrex cylinders.

Using that stupid 30 ml plastic medicine cup, it has a marking for 10 ml and 15 ml, so I just marked a mid-line for 12.5 ml with a sharpie. Maybe close enough for rock'n'roll but probably not real close.

I have a not-too-shabby electronic scale accurate to 0.01 g. Possibly could make more accurate dilutions by calculating the desired weight of alcohol vs water, and getting the proper weights by adding fluid to a container with an eyedropper. For purposes of this little experiment it is probably overkill to go to that trouble.

Edit: On the miscible issue-- Was wondering because when adding water to the PGA, it gives pretty obvious "swirly refraction patterns" and they somewhat persist even after some stirring. But the PGA does not appear "oily" and has no oily taste.

Another interesting thing which may just be pour differences. Might double-check to see if replicable-- Shook up the OJ carton then immediately poured both sample cups 4 oz each. However, the OJ in the sample containing dilute PGA-- The orange juice pulp had a "clumpy" appearance on the surface, wheras the surface of the vodka sample looked "smooth". Was using stainless coffee cups so couldn't look for any appearance differences below the surface. The "clumpy" appearance of the PGA sample persisted even after vigorous stirring.

Unless there was just differences in the amount of pulp in each sample, maybe the PGA had some kind of affect on the behavior of the pulp. Dunno.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[mav]

Lester, if you are looking for accuracy, get some volumetric pipettes. You can get them on ebay, and they will be more accurate than a graduated cylinder and a heck of a lot cheaper.

On the OJ question, I have no idea. My initial thought would be the ethanol is destabilizing the dispersion in the orange juice, but since both samples contain the same amount of ethanol, that doesn't really make sense. Hmmm, I will just leave it at I have no idea.

[JAB]

Most vodka's have a distinct taste. Other than price point therir individual taste is what sets them apart from the others.

And, IMO, Luksusowa Potato Vodka - although it isn't particularly expensive - is the one that tastes the best of the limited brands I have tried. Otherwise, vodka to me is a 'mixing' spirit and I like that most have little flavor.

[Mike.357]

There are only a few tator vodkas in my market. They have distinct flavor too.

If you have not tried Vikingfjord I highly recommend it.

It is tator based

[hornett22]

Distilled spirits do not age in the bottle.

Properly packaged spirits will last for eternity with little to no ill effect on the contents.

If stockpiling for bartering in a shtf situation i would store the most economic liquor possible. If stashing for my own use i would stockpile what I like.

PGA is really no more of a fire hazard than any other liquor. I am in a warehouse full of liquor and fire is the least of my concerns. PGA does have quite a few uses aside from getting snockered too.

Sorry, meant to vote positive but large fingers on a smart phone got in the way. Liked the post. I usually like your posts.