Academy now has Red Jacket

[Capbyrd]

Dislike them or not, they're good for gun owners. We are NOT the target audience. There's no more BS on that show than there is on Fox or CNN. It's TV.

I don't necessarily think they are though. I think they build automatics and stuff and spew misinformation about ownership laws. They make it look like people just walk out with autos. I'd like them to spend a couple of minutes every once in a while going over the proper practices instead of gettin hitched or playin with tannerite.

[gjohnsoniv]

I mean I don't really have the time or money to be building my own rifles and such right now, though I do have some on the drawing board that I want to build. Just have to find time between a full-time job and being a full-time student. On the topic of RJF, the show really is not geared toward serious gun owners. I say that because ahve a feeling any of the guys on here who are tactical have built at least one of everything they have done on that show. Obviously with the exceptions of the things like Mark 19's and other similar items.

Edited March 13, 2012 by gjohnsoniv

[Capbyrd]

If the show is not geared towards gun enthusiasts, then they should spend even MORE time going over the legalities of everything. Because if they don't, then the casual fan is going to think they can legally do the same stuff. Then it makes us all look bad.

[gjohnsoniv]

You know the audience doesn't want to sit through them explaining BATF regulations and such. I agree with you but the audience doesn't want it.

[Capbyrd]

It doesn't have to be that intense. It could be as simple as having a customer walk in and ask about a project and then Will or Steph tells them that its legal but requires a couple of extra forms to be filed with the ATF and a 6 month wait.

[gjohnsoniv]

Yeah you're right. There was that one with the briefcase gun thing where the paperwork was mentioned.

[mikegideon]

It doesn't have to be that intense. It could be as simple as having a customer walk in and ask about a project and then Will or Steph tells them that its legal but requires a couple of extra forms to be filed with the ATF and a 6 month wait.

I think they did touch on that once. They do the "don't try this at home" thing, and mention licensing all the time. Guess they figure if bubba tries to go out and buy a machine gun, he'll learn soon enough. The show has an audience for a reason... it ain't a documentary.

Edited March 13, 2012 by mikegideon

[gjohnsoniv]

If bubba wants an auto I'm sure he can just go and make it in his garage. That's kinda my take on it as well though. A dealer will tell you what you have to do in order buy something. They aren't just going to sell a person a suppressor and say you fill out the paperwork on your own time.

Edited March 13, 2012 by gjohnsoniv

[mikegideon]

That's a good way for Bubba to wind up married to a big hairy guy

[gjohnsoniv]

Lol yup.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Yes. As a manufacturer (even for personal use), it has to have a serial number. If you make one for yourself, you have to engrave your name, location and serial number.

No you don't.

If you have a link I would like to read it as I have looked in the past and just spent about 45 minutes researching it just now.

There are no legal requirements for an individually made firearm to have a serial number. Not smart not to have one but not illegal either.

http://www.atf.gov/f...technology.html

Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.

A suggestion is not a law. Now it is suggested you add a serial number to keep an overzealous LE from taking you to jail but there is no legal requirement for an individual to add a serial number to a gun they made as an individual.

In every single guide book it says licensed manufacturers (an individual is not a licensed manufacturer) must mark but no where does it say individuals need to mark the receiver with a serial number. It is not smart not to but legally it is not required on firearms that an individual makes.

But remember this, if you decide to add a serial number it MUST meet the ATF requirements on size and depth or you could be in hot water as well.

If a gun has EVER had a serial number it is a felony to obliterate or destroy the serial number.

Only NFA items are required to have the individual maker's information.

Of course those who are in the business of manufacturing and selling firearms are licensed to do so so they are required to put their information on any firearms they make.

Dolomite

[Capbyrd]

"Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future."

Likely what I was going on. Basically, I feel that everything is always for sale. So why not go ahead and be on the safe side.

I'll just ahead and put this giant disclaimer here.

I am not an authorized representative of the BATFE or any legal resource. Anything I say can possibly be wrong. Do your own homework and don't blame me if you do something stupid.

[gjohnsoniv]

I don't have any plans of making my own firearms currently. I would like to build a bolt action .22 or .17 though at some point in the future, but I need someone to help me (don't own the tools required.) It's all confusing to me, I've read this and that, and more of that but never can get a straight answer.

[Garufa]

It is getting very confusing so let me attempt to clarify a few things.

It is prefectly legal to buy all the components to "build" an AR. The lower receiver must be transferred through an FFL as it is the "gun" and has a serial number.

If one wanted to build an AR from the ground up, order on-line and have transferred to your FFL of choice a lower receiver.

Then order or otherwise purchase everthing else you want to complete the rifle.

THAT IS NOT MANUFACTURING.

Put the parts together and you have rifle. No special engraving or forms are needed.

You can "put together" something of equal quality in your garage for several hundred dollars or less, legally using the exact same components. Except that "ferritic nitrocarburized" BS gas tube, heck, you could probably even find one of those if you really wanted.

And as there are exceptions to the rule, as I'm sure will be pointed out, very, very few people build (MANUFACTURE) guns from a solid block of aluminum, steel or what have you. Then ATF rules might start applying. If one is doing such I imagine they already know the rules, or damn well better.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Garufa

[gjohnsoniv]

No, no I understand the building up of rifles like AR's. It's more vague to me when they're talking about homebuilt rifles/handguns. Like if I were to go into my garage and build a bolt action rifle from stock material.

[Garufa]

No, no I understand the building up of rifles like AR's. It's more vague to me when they're talking about homebuilt rifles/handguns. Like if I were to go into my garage and build a bolt action rifle from stock material.

That really deserves its own thread. Feel free to start one if you have the means to actually build your own.

[gjohnsoniv]

It really does, I wasn't attempting to derail this one. If I had the equipment I would certainly try it, or the time. Being a full-time student and working full-time really gets in the way of my fun. Not that it's a bad thing.

Edited March 13, 2012 by gjohnsoniv

[Dolomite_supafly]

If an FFL buys a stripped lower and transfers it as a receiver he cannot assemble it as a rifle or pistol for sale without a manufacturer's license. A receiver is not a rifle or a pistol yet in the eyes of the ATF but when you change its status from receiver to any other definition it constitutes manufacturing and thus requires a manufacturing license.

For the individual doing this is perfectly legal providing they are not doing it with the intent to sell. Up until probably 3 years ago "receiver only" was not an option on the 4473. Now that it is an option FFL's need to be careful about building complete firearms from receivers and then selling them as rifles on the 4473.

There was a FFL who got into some hot water over this. He was transferring in "receivers" from S&W then using them to assemble them into "rifles". He would then sell the "receivers" as "rifles". And because he did not have a license to make "rifles" the ATF kicked him in the nuts. An FFL cannot build rifles from receivers without a manufacturer license.

Same thing goes for individuals. If they receive a lower receiver as a "receiver" on the 4473 it can be assembled into a rifle or pistol. If it is transferred in as a rifle (and some still do) it can only be assembled into a rifle. If it is transferred in as a pistol it can be built into either a rifle or a pistol. And remember once a rifle always a rifle, that is once it is configured as a rifle it cannot go back to pistol. There are some sporting exemptions like the TC Contender and a few others.

Dolomite

[gjohnsoniv]

Very interesting.

[Smith]

To "build" an AR you world have to get one of the 80% receivers or a block of aluminum and do the final drilling/machining yourself. Those do not require an FFL. AK flats likewise do not require an FFL until you put the slightest bend in it. Those are really the only ways to "build" an AK or an AR in your garage. Everything else is kit assembly where the "firearm" has already been registered with a manufacturer/importer.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Smith

[gjohnsoniv]

I wonder if anyone on here has built a rifle from scratch, I know someone out of all the members has. I want like I said earlier to build a bolt action something from stock. That's my goal at some point.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Dolomite, think I know the answer but wanted to make sure--

If a fella was to legally buy a receiver or stripped receiver from an FFL, filling out the 4473 and passing the background check and whatever. After that, wouldn't it be entirely legal to hire somebody else to add the rest of the parts and turn it into a complete working firearm? Would the hired third-party need any kind of manufacturing license to perform the service of assembling parts onto that legally-purchased receiver?

If I go to the gun store and buy a stripped receiver and then hire somebody to turn it into a fine firearm for my own use, that wouldn't break any laws would it? Or could that somehow get people in trouble without proper licenses?

[Dolomite_supafly]

Whomever you hire can make any corrections or do any work the owner can as long as the owner is present. That is you have to be present while they do the work and you cannot leave.

I know there are a lot of people who "lend" the parts to another for completion but if they are doing it as part of a business they do need the proper licensing. And as I said before those who are doing it as part of a money making enterprise rarely do just one or two.

If you plan on leaving the firearm to be assembled by someone else then they will need the proper licensing. It would also stand to reason if the shop is changing the status from a receiver to rifle or pistol they need a manufacturing license because he is making a firearm.

Dolomite

[Smith]

Whomever you hire can make any corrections or do any work the owner can as long as the owner is present. That is you have to be present while they do the work and you cannot leave.

I know there are a lot of people who "lend" the parts to another for completion but if they are doing it as part of a business they do need the proper licensing. And as I said before those who are doing it as part of a money making enterprise rarely do just one or two.

If you plan on leaving the firearm to be assembled by someone else then they will need the proper licensing. It would also stand to reason if the shop is changing the status from a receiver to rifle or pistol they need a manufacturing license because he is making a firearm.

Dolomite

Also note, the ATF classifies anyone who alters, enhances, or changes features of a firearm (while not changing classification) for profit - as a Gunsmith and needs the proper FFL for that as well.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Smith

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Thanks Dolomite and Smith. Didn't realize all that. There sure are a lot of ways to get in trouble! Knew for decades that there are lots of ways to get in trouble, but never ceases to amaze.