Academy now has Red Jacket

[gjohnsoniv]

Does anyone actually know whether they lost their FFL? I've only heard the rumors but haven't put forth any effort to verify anything.

[Oh Shoot]

...

And yes Will did lose his FFL, the company was made into a LLC that was shared by 3 of the employees one of whom left, and the reason he lost his FFL is 2 or so firearms were "Stolen" and they said they "Threw Away" some recievers rather than disposing of them properly.

AgainTMZ and arf.com's regurgitation of the rumor don't make it true. The only validation of said claim were Facebook post supposedly by Vince who later claimed his account was hacked and he didn't make the post.

I've read Will's response that discredits TMZ and have yet to see anything to validate the rumors except broad conjecture on gun forums by people who seem to get jollies from seeing people destroyed.

...

Their attorney says pretty much the same thing as what 48 South just did.

Story from Baton Rouge TV station:

http://www.wbrz.com/...ute-tmz-report/

That a couple of guns were stolen, they disposed of "receiver flats" they messed up (which I guess are "stripped lowers", even though their attorney says they weren't "guns", but of course they are as far as BATF is concerned) and didn't note any of this on their records, and made a deal with BATF to shut down the existing FFL.. All before the TV show even started, and by then they had another FFL with a different folks as principals.

So what's the big deal? They screwed up their record keeping and got caught. Happened to a couple of TN based FFLs too, eh?

- OS

[~48_South~]

AgainTMZ and arf.com's regurgitation of the rumor don't make it true. The only validation of said claim were Facebook post supposedly by Vince who later claimed his account was hacked and he didn't make the post.

I've read Will's response that discredits TMZ and have yet to see anything to validate the rumors except broad conjecture on gun forums by people who seem to get jollies from seeing people destroyed.

I have no dog in the fight but I hate to see peoples livelihood and character be destroyed by internet/TV voyers who are more familiar with their mothers basement couch than the "top tier" AR's they dumped thousands into so they can have the approval of the cool kids.

Not specifically directed at you 48.

I personally think he got off rather easy, I mean how many Federal gun laws can you or myself get caught breaking(Accident or not) and still be able to walk the streets free much less still OWN and BUILD firearms...

As far as 100% proof he lost his FFL I cant give you that but he is no longer the OWNER of Red Jacket,rather just an employee. Yes Sabre Defense in Nashville has been in trouble a couple of times I think, once for pretty much the same thing as Red Jacket and then maybe another for illegally exporting firearms to Europe? I could be wrong on that but Im pretty sure thats what happend.

Edited March 13, 2012 by ~48_South~

[Dolomite_supafly]

I'm going to jump in here for RJF and make some excuses for them. Even though I am a critic of theirs we need to realize they are exposing the country to firearms and exposure removes the scariness for some. They have no doubt brought people into the firearms community that never would have joined.

First they were AK guys, that is all they did and were very well respected for doing it. And for a long time that is all they knew. And then somewhere along the line, no doubt the producers recommendation, they get into AR's. To them their AR might be new and novel because they have never dealt with AR's before. And one more thing, diversification is a good thing. They are getting into a market that is getting ready to go full retard again like in November of 2008.

And as far as anything that is not an AK being built on the show it is the producers that are steering the decision to build it. And think about this, there are very few true custom shops and they are now one of them. I am lucky in that Predator Custom shop is indeed that, a true custom shop. They will build anything, no matter how far out of the norm, and jump headlong into as if it were their own.

Now onto the particular model that is being sold at Academy. It is Academy that sets that price. Let me say it again, Academy sets the selling price not Red Jacket. Yes you can get comparables for cheaper right now but not for long. We are heading into the days of $1,500 basic carbines and anything remotely decked out being $2,500. It is worth $1,200? To somebody it is and that somebody is probably taking into account the name and the television show. Just that same way most Leupold owners pick their optics for the first time, because of the name. Ot those who drive a Escalade when a Yukon is the same under all the glitz.

As far as the paperwork screw up it happens. Any shop that hasn't had an issue with its books at some point either hasn't been in business very long or hasn't sold a lot of firearms. The screw up might have been during an inspection or just some screw up someone at the shop caught before the ATF inspected. Now those screw ups might not be a lost firearm but errors on the books does happen to most.

And to those who think billet is better it is not. It just looks different. It is milled out of a single block of aluminum. Standard lowers are forged which makes for a harder, more durable lower. And with everything being CNC anymore a standard forged lower is going to be just as in spec as a billet lower. And remember this, milspec is the minimum standard and a billet lower does not meet it. Billet lowers are not forged. There is a reason for it. Do I like billets? Yes I do but billet is not better than forged.

Just a few thoughts

Dolomite

Edited March 13, 2012 by Dolomite_supafly

[Guest A10thunderbolt]

I think Red Jacket is a good way to make gun's more main stream. I don't think they are any better at building ARs as anybody can be though.

I just recently bought my first AR, I wanted something cheap to play around with, but I also wanted one brand new. The prices actually went up while I was looking, I lucked out and got a brand new DPMS for $780.00, most other stores had them for $800-$900. Now I know some of you will say I got ripped but I couldn't find anything brand new and cheaper at the time.

The gun shoots great. No problems so far and I was amazed at how easy parts and accessories are to get and change out.

[McAllyn]

I think Red Jacket is a good way to make gun's more main stream. I don't think they are any better at building ARs as anybody can be though.

I just recently bought my first AR, I wanted something cheap to play around with, but I also wanted one brand new. The prices actually went up while I was looking, I lucked out and got a brand new DPMS for $780.00, most other stores had them for $800-$900. Now I know some of you will say I got ripped but I couldn't find anything brand new and cheaper at the time.

The gun shoots great. No problems so far and I was amazed at how easy parts and accessories are to get and change out.

Off topic, but if you paid a price you're comfortable with for an item you enjoy, screw anyone who thinks you got ripped off.

Back on topic, S&W M&P15 mid MOE lists for $1259 in almost the exact same configuration except it's mid length and comes with a VFG. Barrel is a 1:8 5R. I'd go for the Smith, but that's just me, everyone gets to pick how and where to spend their money.

This is how we (as a society) operates. We pay $200-300 extra for a purple tool box with flames on it that says West Coast Choppers, we pay $10-20 extra for cheap sunglasses that say OCC, and we pay $20-30 for a license plate for the front of our vehicle with our favourite sports team's logo. It is what it is. We work to make money. We make money to spend money. It's your money, do with it what you will and give it to whom you please.

Mac

[Smith]

I personally think he got off rather easy, I mean how many Federal gun laws can you or myself get caught breaking(Accident or not) and still be able to walk the streets free much less still OWN and BUILD firearms...

As far as 100% proof he lost his FFL I cant give you that but he is no longer the OWNER of Red Jacket,rather just an employee. Yes Sabre Defense in Nashville has been in trouble a couple of times I think, once for pretty much the same thing as Red Jacket and then maybe another for illegally exporting firearms to Europe? I could be wrong on that but I'm pretty sure thats what happened.

What Sabre did and what happened at Red Jacket are worlds apart. Sabre was selling and moving guns intentionally on a large scale without tracking them properly through the ATF and State Department. It's like comparing Bernie Madoff with an average Joe IRS audit where they didn't check the right box. I hadn't seen the news report and I've searched high and low. As far as "flats" they are referring to AK flats that are not firearms till they are bent and there were two reported guns stolen between 2001 and 2008. Of Course the ATF gets to interpret that so it's hard to say. Will actually still holds the trademark to Red Jacket as well as being the owner of several entities under the Red Jacket moniker, just is not listed under the LLC portion that the show records. I believe he is the one listed under RJ International and a couple others. He and his lawyer both claim he is not prohibited from holding an FFL and chose to not be listed on the LLC for various business decisions. Know ones know for sure so I'll leave it with that.

For some reason I keep getting drawn into this drama and I don't even watch the show! It's like the car wreck I can't help but watch.

[Oh Shoot]

... I hadn't seen the news report and I've searched high and low....

Referenced [5] off Wiki page as source:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Sons_of_Guns

As far as "flats" they are referring to AK flats that are not firearms till they are bent...

I don't know the legal status of them, never even heard of them before, but I can't buy one, must be some sort of federal accounting regarding them.

Off topic to the topic, but I had never heard of this little gaffe either, quite a hoot, but quite a disruption too:

"Dallas Fort Worth airport incident

The Sons of Guns production company made the evening news when its staff member, showing a "colossal error in judgement" on the anniversary of the September 11 attacks, parked a rental truck containing automatic weapons and pyrotechnics outside the Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport while waiting for a colleague. Part of Terminal B was closed for several hours while the FBI investigated but found no wrong doing.[12]"

http://www.nbcdfw.co...-129620573.html

- OS

Edited March 13, 2012 by OhShoot

[Smith]

Referenced [5] off Wiki page as source:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Sons_of_Guns

I don't know the legal status of them, never even heard of them before, but I can't buy one, must be some sort of federal accounting regarding them.

Off topic to the topic, but I had never heard of this little gaffe either, quite a hoot, but quite a disruption too:

"Dallas Fort Worth airport incident

The Sons of Guns production company made the evening news when its staff member, showing a "colossal error in judgment" on the anniversary of the September 11 attacks, parked a rental truck containing automatic weapons and pyrotechnics outside the Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport while waiting for a colleague. Part of Terminal B was closed for several hours while the FBI investigated but found no wrong doing.[12]"

http://www.nbcdfw.co...-129620573.html

- OS

You can buy AK flats all day long ... from Tapco! http://www.tapco.com/products/ak_modern/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=66

As to the second story, that's just funny. I can imagine the panic and sheer terror at the Airport. I think the one thing most folks forget to take into account is that the these guys from the backwoods of Louisiana. They are simple good Ol' boys who got thrown into the spotlight. Kinda like filming some the backyard BB Q's around here.

[Oh Shoot]

You can buy AK flats all day long ... from Tapco! http://www.tapco.com...od&productId=66

Learn me. I can buy them, but I can't make a receiver out of them? So why would I buy them?

- OS

[Capbyrd]

Learn me. I can buy them, but I can't make a receiver out of them? So why would I buy them?

- OS

Why can't you? Its perfectly legal to make your firearms. Its the same as buying an 80% receiver and finishing it. You just can't make it full auto.

[Oh Shoot]

Why can't you? Its perfectly legal to make your firearms. Its the same as buying an 80% receiver and finishing it. You just can't make it full auto.

Well, I guess that's right come to think of it. I can make them, but just can't ever sell them unless I had a federal manufacturing license to make them in the first place, that the idea?

- OS

[Capbyrd]

You can make them for personal use. If, a couple of years later, you decide to sell, then thats legal. But you can't make them with the intent of selling them.

[Oh Shoot]

You can make them for personal use. If, a couple of years later, you decide to sell, then thats legal. But you can't make them with the intent of selling them.

Ah IC, thanks.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Well, I guess that's right come to think of it. I can make them, but just can't ever sell them unless I had a federal manufacturing license to make them in the first place, that the idea?

- OS

Actually you can sell any firearm you have made. It just can't be built with the intent of selling it. And before you ask how would they know intent realize this, most people who make guns to sell rarely sell just one. If you made and sold just one you have done no wrong, make and sell a dozens and you are in a heap of trouble.

Same goes for taking legally transferred AR lowers and making complete firearms. You must have manufacturers licensing in order to assemble AR lowers for sale as complete firearms. Again, one time is not an issue it is when people do it as part of a money making business. You cannot buy a dozen stripped lowers and assemble them into firearms to sell without a manufacturer's license.

There was a local shop that got into hot water for buying stripped S&W lowers then assembling them for sale. ATF told him to stop it.

Dolomite

[gjohnsoniv]

Wow this whole thing is very confusing with RJF.

[gjohnsoniv]

What do you have to do in terms of serial numbers on ones you have built, Using flats as an example. Do you have to put one on if you sell it, or would that be if you were only selling to an FFL?

[Capbyrd]

Yes. As a manufacturer (even for personal use), it has to have a serial number. If you make one for yourself, you have to engrave your name, location and serial number.

[gjohnsoniv]

Gotcha. Any particular way to do the serial number? Or can you just put XXXX1 or whatever?

[Capbyrd]

I'm not up on the rules to that point. I wouldn't know what to tell you.

[Oh Shoot]

Here are the engraving rules from BATF for manufacturers and importers and NFA items. I couldn't find what they are for an individual, and it doesn't seem to specifically mention that in these statutes, but perhaps apply also? . As you would imagine, they are quite detailed.

http://www.atf.gov/f...n-overview.html

- OS

Edited March 13, 2012 by OhShoot

[Magiccarpetrides]

This is typical reaction to anything that was not mainstream but is now. "I want them to succeed they are a great (fill in blank with any profession), then the (blank) succeeds and gets commercial success, now the (blank) is a sellout and too commercialized". We root for the underdog until they no longer are and then curse them for the success they have achieved...its just the way of things.

[Capbyrd]

Except noone is cursing their success. Look back at the reasons that I gave for me disliking them.

[mikegideon]

Dislike them or not, they're good for gun owners. We are NOT the target audience. There's no more BS on that show than there is on Fox or CNN. It's TV.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Here are the engraving rules from BATF for manufacturers and importers and NFA items. I couldn't find what they are for an individual, and it doesn't seem to specifically mention that in these statutes, but perhaps apply also? . As you would imagine, they are quite detailed.

http://www.atf.gov/f...n-overview.html

- OS

In an earlier thread someone posted links to "build your own gun from bare metal" forums. Was surprised that it is legal to make one from scratch. My impression went back to even in the 1950's and 1960's when kids and adults would get in trouble building zip guns. But zip guns are often the AOW category.

I read one of the gun-building forums because it is interesting to read DIY projects. Got the impression from that forum that a private citizen does not specifically need a serial num for a self-made gun, except if he later sells the weapon. Though it is strongly suggested good practice to attach serial numbers.