Schools as polling places?

[JayC]

I just went and voted in the primary today, and a thought crossed my mind... Is the state of TN (or some subdivision of it) violating our right to vote by placing some polling locations in schools preventing HCP holder from being armed while voting, while placing some polling locations in private locations which allow carry?

Would a posted private location be some type of violation as well?

In all honesty I doubt anybody really cares, but with the grey area surrounding carrying of a loaded firearm even left in a vehicle in a school parking lot to go and vote, maybe being considered a felony... is the legislature disenfranchising HCP holders by placing polling locations inside schools?

[UncleJak]

I've often wondered this too. In this case, the school is not a school. It is a voting location and no students are present. The rules may still apply, but I don't know. Someone smarter than me needs to answer this one...

[Jonnin]

trade you a ghetto "rec center" where they honest to goodness had a sign that said "keep your pants up" and another "no hat's allowed" (yes, thats right, the hat owned something apparently --- the sign had a major typo to help edumacate the kids) for your no-carry school. Of course, I don't think you can carry at the "rec center" either, so its not much of a trade

they use whatever public buildings are available, with decent parking and access, no matter what the building is for. Some are schools. Some are churches that allow it because they are nice. You get what they have available. The root of the problem is not that you had to use a school, but that the school has the no carry nonsense rule.

[JayC]

I've often wondered this too. In this case, the school is not a school. It is a voting location and no students are present. The rules may still apply, but I don't know. Someone smarter than me needs to answer this one...

No there are students there... and even if they aren't it's still a school under 39-17-13xx

[JayC]

trade you a ghetto "rec center" where they honest to goodness had a sign that said "keep your pants up" and another "no hat's allowed" (yes, thats right, the hat owned something apparently --- the sign had a major typo to help edumacate the kids) for your no-carry school. Of course, I don't think you can carry at the "rec center" either, so its not much of a trade

they use whatever public buildings are available, with decent parking and access, no matter what the building is for. Some are schools. Some are churches that allow it because they are nice. You get what they have available. The root of the problem is not that you had to use a school, but that the school has the no carry nonsense rule.

The real problem is placing a polling station in an area that is off limits to 7-8% of the voting public. While other polling locations are in private (church) locations which allow carry.

In light of the MD carry ruling from this week, it would see this is a violation of a HCP holders voting rights?

[TMF]

No there are students there... and even if they aren't it's still a school under 39-17-13xx

Schools are closed today. There are no students unless they are with their parent that is voting. I just voted at an elementary school which is completely empty and my son is home because school is closed.

[Guest jkintn]

I'm confused...can you not leave a firearms locked in your car while on school property?

"© (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property."

[Raoul]

My experience is that any violation of our right to carry is unintentional. I was a voting official in my county for about 15 years and what I saw was that it's difficult to find really good polling places. I dislike schools due to the perceived danger of having lots of traffic in and out of the building which is a possible threat these days, but in many precincts there's no other option.

Here in Sullivan County the Election officers have been moving away from schools. This year early voting was at the NG armory here in Bristol and my polling place was moved to a city owned community center. I'm in favor of centralized voting places open for longer periods. No employer gives their employees time off to vote anymore.

[Raoul]

Schools are closed today. There are no students unless they are with their parent that is voting. I just voted at an elementary school which is completely empty and my son is home because school is closed.

Not in Kingsport or Bristol.

[TMF]

Not in Kingsport or Bristol.

Okay, I thought that was a standard for TN. I guess it's just here in Clarksville/Montgomery County.

[Guest jkintn]

Can someone explain the difference in B and C below? Looks like B outlaws guns on any school property but C makes reference to having one in vehicle.

39-17-1309. Carrying weapons on school property.

(a) As used in this section, "weapon of like kind" includes razors and razor blades, except those used solely for personal shaving, and any sharp pointed or edged instrument, except unaltered nail files and clips and tools used solely for preparation of food, instruction and maintenance.

B (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go armed, any firearm, explosive, explosive weapon, bowie knife, hawk bill knife, ice pick, dagger, slingshot, leaded cane, switchblade knife, blackjack, knuckles or any other weapon of like kind, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution.

(2) A violation of this subsection B is a Class E felony.

C (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection C for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

(2) A violation of this subsection C is a Class B misdemeanor.

Edited March 6, 2012 by jkintn

[JayC]

Schools are closed today. There are no students unless they are with their parent that is voting. I just voted at an elementary school which is completely empty and my son is home because school is closed.

Just curious, my kids don't go to public school, but why were schools closed today? There were students there, and the parking lot was full of teachers vehicles... I'm not talking about seeing a student here or there... but 30-40 walking in a single file line down the hall between classes.

Any chance that maybe your schools were closed but not all schools are closed today?

Even still it doesn't matter, under the law schools are not care zones 24/7/365. Even if the building isn't used for a school anymore, and is only offices for the school district it's still covered.

Edited March 6, 2012 by JayC

[JayC]

I'm confused...can you not leave a firearms locked in your car while on school property?

"©(1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property."

Look at 39-17-1309b1 right above it.. a felony and no exception for non-student adults... which my reading is the firearm must be unloaded, and separated from the ammunition, or you could be charged with intent to go armed, a felony in this case.

It's not easy to stop off school property, unload the firearm, separate it from the ammo, store it out of reach of all passengers... then drive onto school property, vote, drive off of school property again, and re-ensemble the firearm for carrying.

And it still doesn't change the fact that you're rendered unarmed while voting, which is not a requirement under the law... so why do some permit holders have to go unarmed while others don't while voting? Doesn't seem like equal access to voting if you ask me.

[JayC]

My experience is that any violation of our right to carry is unintentional. I was a voting official in my county for about 15 years and what I saw was that it's difficult to find really good polling places. I dislike schools due to the perceived danger of having lots of traffic in and out of the building which is a possible threat these days, but in many precincts there's no other option.

Here in Sullivan County the Election officers have been moving away from schools. This year early voting was at the NG armory here in Bristol and my polling place was moved to a city owned community center. I'm in favor of centralized voting places open for longer periods. No employer gives their employees time off to vote anymore.

It's a law that employers must allows their staff time off to vote. We had to make sure that all of our employees were given time off to vote if they wanted it.

Whether it's intentional or not, the state should be required to find a voting location that isn't a no carry zone.

[JayC]

That is the grey area I was referring to in my original post.

Can someone explain the difference in B and C below? Looks like B outlaws guns on any school property but C makes reference to having one in vehicle.

39-17-1309. Carrying weapons on school property.

(a) As used in this section, "weapon of like kind" includes razors and razor blades, except those used solely for personal shaving, and any sharp pointed or edged instrument, except unaltered nail files and clips and tools used solely for preparation of food, instruction and maintenance.

B (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go armed, any firearm, explosive, explosive weapon, bowie knife, hawk bill knife, ice pick, dagger, slingshot, leaded cane, switchblade knife, blackjack, knuckles or any other weapon of like kind, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution.

(2) A violation of this subsection B is a Class E felony.

C (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection C for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

(2) A violation of this subsection C is a Class B misdemeanor.

[Guest jkintn]

Look at 39-17-1309b1 right above it.. a felony and no exception for non-student adults... which my reading is the firearm must be unloaded, and separated from the ammunition, or you could be charged with intent to go armed, a felony in this case.

It's not easy to stop off school property, unload the firearm, separate it from the ammo, store it out of reach of all passengers... then drive onto school property, vote, drive off of school property again, and re-ensemble the firearm for carrying.

And it still doesn't change the fact that you're rendered unarmed while voting, which is not a requirement under the law... so why do some permit holders have to go unarmed while others don't while voting? Doesn't seem like equal access to voting if you ask me.

I found this on-line as well. I actually don't care about the few times I have to vote. Can a parent with a HCP, go to a school event (play, lunch, ballgame, etc) and leave the weapon locked in the vehicle?

"

Places Off-Limits Even With A Permit/License

ï‚· Any room in which judicial proceedings are in progress.

ï‚· Any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds,

recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of

education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration

of any public or private educational institution.

ï‚· It is not an offense for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if such firearm is contained within a

private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by such adult, or by any other person acting

with the expresses or implied consent of such adult, while such vehicle is on school property"

[Makiaveli]

In reference to the B/C section, I think C is there to make it legal for you to possess a legal firearm while you are in your vehicle. I think it is a example of "'legalese". Basically, they can elect to enforce C and let you go. Whereas if you caused trouble, they could enforce B (which might not stand up in court).

Not a lawyer, just pick up pieces here and there. Working Police IT support I get a lot of legal questions tossed my way (seems they think since it's a e-form on a computer, then it's a IT issue) and occasionally I even get to hear the actual answer.

[Guest 270win]

If you are not picking up or dropping off people at a school, about the only way to possess a firearm in your vehicle is if you do not have 'intent to go armed'. I unload my handgun and put it in the trunk before I go to a school. If you are picking up/dropping off people, there doesn't seem to be the requirement to not have 'intent to go armed'. It seems legal then to keep your gun loaded if just picking up dropping off. Dumb law that needs to be changed.

[Fallguy]

Schools are schools 24/7.

Any polling place is off-limits to 92-93% of the public simply because they don't have a HCP, so not sure how much of an argument you could have about moving a polling place from a school until it is truly a right to carry in TN.

As said, I doubt polls were placed at schools to try and prevent carry at the polling place. Many states have laws against carry at a polling place no matter where they are, TN could simply do that too if they wanted.

[Jonnin]

I think I have found the problem!

The intent to go armed is not a crime: it is a right granted by the 2nd.

That makes these laws a violation.

The problem, then, is not the school or other voting facility, its the illegal law!

[Guest 270win]

All the polling places stick these 'no guns' signs up in Shelby County. They are not required to but they do. A lot of the places you can see the signs before you walk in, some you can't really notice them. It is silly that Shelby County election commission pulls that when it is not necessary under state law.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

I went & voted early in Clarksville & you have to go to the election commission to do it. The building itself is legally posted on the front door. I had to leave my gun in the car. I thought it was kind of silly how I had to give up one right to be able to exercise another......

[JayC]

I went & voted early in Clarksville & you have to go to the election commission to do it. The building itself is legally posted on the front door. I had to leave my gun in the car. I thought it was kind of silly how I had to give up one right to be able to exercise another......

Even that isn't as silly as a school... atleast with a government building you're only unarmed long enough to vote (still unconstitutional imho)... when the polling place is a school... you have to stop get out unload and lock the gfirearm up... drive onto school property, go in vote... drive off of school property reload your firearm and go about your business... it's a real hassle.

[Fallguy]

Makes me glad I always early vote at the election office.

[Just2Honor]

Jonnin-While I, and many others, share your obvious flustration, it is the law. Our HCP is only a defense against the crime IF you are following the laws pertaining to it. I don't see much hope for changing it any time soon as we can't even get a decent "parking lot"bill through the legislature. On a better note, it appears more and more county electrion officials are moving the polling places out of schools due to security concerns by the school, parking issues, etc. Unfortunately that isn't always possible, particularly in rural counties where building options are limited.