Storm Shelters in East Tennessee

[JReedEsq]

OK, Here goes. I've been trying to convince my wife that worrrying too much about tornadoes in East Tennessee might be a little paranoid but I'm losing the arguement. Knowing how cautious the folks on TGO are you guys will probably all take her side. Our house is on a slab. No basement. We had it built in 2007 and at the time were convinced a slab was the say to go to avoid mold issues. I'm sure you construction minded folks are aware that water can get into basements and crawl spaces where the HVAC system might be which then circulates mold spores all over the house to make people sick. Anyway our house is on a slab and I don't want to move anytime soon. We are in the school zone we want, in a nice part of town, and I would prefer 5 garages to two, but I can live with two for now. Do you think it's paranoid to get a storm shelter in TN? Is a windowless, ground floor room good enough? I've found a few sites online where people either have pre-built steel rooms bolted to the slab in their garages, or you can have the slab cut so that a hinged rollback door opens to stairs to a room large enough for 4-6 people. According to the info I've found these things cost about $4,000-$5,000. Another option would be to have a room added to the back of our house and have it built with steel reinforced walls and no windows. Finally, I've been told there are folks who can add reinforcements to a room of our choice which would have to be either our pantry (underneath the steps to upstairs and large enough to fit 4 of us and the dog, but it would be a little tight) or our downstairs bathroom. The rest of the downstairs rooms have windows. I'd appreciate information from anyone on TGO with construction experience. I'm certain there are contractors or engineers on TGO. First, would cutting into the slab possibly destabilize the house? The set Second, does anyone know of a contractor in East Tennessee with experience with projects like this? For something this specific, I'd like to know they would be closing supervising the work and not just sub-contracting it out.

Here's one option:

http://tswstormshelters.com/customerphotos.html

BTW, anything that takes up room in the garage is not an option. I've got 8 bicycles, hiking/backpacking/camping equipment, lawn care stuff, 1 mid-size car, and 1 mid-size SUV in there already. It's jam packed.

Edited March 4, 2012 by JReedEsq

[VERO1]

Do you have room in the yard for a tornado shelter? There is a company around our area that sells a unit that looks like a fiberglass septic tank with stairs and door,air vents etc. Tthey are buried underground of course.They aren't for long term stays and I think they offer different sizes. Not sure if this route would be cheaper for you.

[TripleDigitRide]

I'm probably part of the minority, but I am more fearful of being stuck in a storm shelter (especially an underground model) after the door is blocked/covered by debris than I am of an actual tornado.

I've seen some that appear to be built and designed better than others, but you need to be careful because I don't think the storm shelter industry is very regulated, if at all. Put some serious thought into the design and functionality of the shelter, before, during and after the storm.

Edited March 4, 2012 by TripleDigitRide

[JReedEsq]

I'm probably part of the minority, but I am more fearful of being stuck in a storm shelter (especially an underground model) after the door is blocked/covered by debris than I am of an actual tornado.

I've seen some that appear to be built and designed better than others, but you need to be careful because I don't think the storm shelter industry is very regulated, if at all. Put some serious thought into the design and functionality of the shelter, both before and after the storm.

Some of the models we've looked at have an option to somehow send out GPS locating info. I'm sure that's an additional option somehow. As for giving it some thought... I've been concerned about this for almost a year now. My wife's younger sister was at the U of A last year when they got hit HARD. She knew people who were initially declared missing. The building next to hers was demolished. There were reports of assaults etc... Much of the initial reports turned out to be exagerated. Anyway, I don't want to devalue my house. I'm sure somepeople would look at a $6,000 shelter just an extra closet. I've told my wife that I'm sure it's like a pool. You could spend tons of money on it to ad just a little value to your house. The "in the garage floor" model looks most appealing to me but I've got to be sure it wouldn't somehow destabilize the house. Otherwise, I'm leaning toward checking into a windowless storage room behind my garage. And having that built with steel-reinforced walls.

[JReedEsq]

I realize now I should have posted this on the "Survival & Preparedness" board. My apologies.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Some relatives had an AL farm with a back-yard concrete storm shelter which doubled as a root cellar-- Floor to ceiling shelves of canned goods, hanging nets of onions and baskets of taters, as best I recall. Visiting in the 1950's I thought the shelter was great. A perfect place for a kid to play or "get away from it all" and read. Their shelter looked ancient even in the 1950's. Definitely not something they had recently built.

Wife mentioned storm shelters yesterday. We have some slopes on the property. At our location it might work best to cut into a slope rather than make a fancy hole in flat ground. For one thing it ought to have better drainage. If it did spring a leak on the uphill side, then at least water would drain out the door on the downhill side. If a flat-land shelter sprung a leak it would be the equivalent of a covered swimming pool. However nowadays with a battery sump pump maybe no big deal? Or one of those fancy fiberglas shelters mentioned above.

Our old house has a full basement built on a slope. The front basement is fully underground and the back of the basement is ground-level. Should be relatively safe cowering in a front corner of the basement unless the house falls in rather than blowing away.

Had earlier talked about building a reinforced concrete "safe room" with either a vault door or a four-foot steel door, occupying a quarter of the basement on the underground side. Alternately, maybe going all the way across the uphill side. Was thinking maybe concrete block, with the holes in the block filled with concrete and rebar. That is fairly sturdy and within my do-it-yerself skill level. It would take awhile to sledge-hammer such a wall for purposes of theft and ought to be relatively storm-proof. Haven't quite decidedthe best way to "roof" such a sub-room in the basement, but haven't given it much thought. Might be difficult to do a concrete pour up under the first floor rafters, without making some kind of big hole in the side of the foundation.

[Oh Shoot]

6 million folks in TN. What's the average killed by storms each year? Maybe 5 or less?

Compare with a thousand or more yearly traffic fatalities.

Odds are near astronomical against being snuffed by storms.

- OS

[Caster]

6 million folks in TN. What's the average killed by storms each year? Maybe 5 or less?

Compare with a thousand or more yearly traffic fatalities.

Odds are near astronomical against being snuffed by storms.

- OS

Oh sure, take your chances when you're 900 years old.

J/K

Seriously, it only takes one. Also, if you go ahead and make it a panic room, you've just moved out ahead of the pack by two steps.

[K191145]

I'm probably part of the minority, but I am more fearful of being stuck in a storm shelter (especially an underground model) after the door is blocked/covered by debris than I am of an actual tornado.

I've seen some that appear to be built and designed better than others, but you need to be careful because I don't think the storm shelter industry is very regulated, if at all. Put some serious thought into the design and functionality of the shelter, before, during and after the storm.

I would much rather have an above ground safe room with a strong metal door that opens to the inside of the room, not only for storms but maybe fire and burgler proof to store some valubles. And the occasional tornado. I believe you can construct a small room strong enough to handle most anything.

[peejman]

I'm in a similar situation, I have a crawl space. Our current "storm shelter" is the laundry room, which is the only room in the house (one level) with no exterior walls. I understand your concern about basements and mold. I really wanted a basement (for storm shelter and general man-cave reasons), but it seemed like 9 of 10 houses had some sort of moisture problem. And no one but me seemed to think it was a big deal.

If I were building a house, I'd definitely put in some sort of storm shelter/panic room. If the expense of installing one isn't a big deal, devaluing the house would be of very little concern. I'm a bit leery of the under garage, post-construction version. Big brother has blocked the installation video in the link you posted, but the "one day install" comment has me really suspicious.

I think a coworker's wife sells storm shelter type rooms. I'm waiting for a response from him at the moment.

[JReedEsq]

I think a coworker's wife sells storm shelter type rooms. I'm waiting for a response from him at the moment.

If you don't mind. Post it up here or PM me when you get a response. I'm also wondering if I can't have someone come in and add reinforcements to an existing room in our house. Our "under the stairs" pantry already is stocked with food. Everything I know about construction I learned in the one summer I worked for a guy in Murfreesboro who flipped houses. There was one college student and we took a lot of crap because we were told we weren't worth teaching anything because they knew we wouldn't be doing that job long-term. Anyway I know just a little about wall construction and it seems like the cheapest option would be to rip out the drywall and add in some sort of steel reinforcements and then put drywall back over it. The issue I see would be the ceiling. I'm not sure how you could pour concrete or add heavy steel to the ceiling. Again, if I was confident in my knowlege I wouldn't pose the question, but it seems to me that this could be done for a fraction of the $4-6k of these other alternatives.

Edited March 5, 2012 by JReedEsq

[peejman]

If you don't mind. Post it up here or PM me when you get a response.

http://www.tnstormshelters.com/ - appears to be exactly the same as what you posted above, just an east TN version.

I'm also wondering if I can't have someone come in and add reinforcements to an existing room in our house. Our "under the stairs" pantry already is stocked with food. Everything I know about construction I learned in the one summer I worked for a guy in Murfreesboro who flipped houses. There was one college student and we took a lot of crap because we were told we weren't worth teaching anything because they knew we wouldn't be doing that job long-term. Anyway I know just a little about wall construction and it seems like the cheapest option would be to rip out the drywall and add in some sort of steel reinforcements and then put drywall back over it. The issue I see would be the ceiling. I'm not sure how you could pour concrete or add heavy steel to the ceiling. Again, if I was confident in my knowlege I wouldn't pose the question, but it seems to me that this could be done for a fraction of the $4-6k of these other alternatives.

In my mind (I'm not a construction expert, though I am an engineer) reinforcing an existing room would involve gutting it, building a relatively heavy steel box to fit within the existing house structure, installing it, and then finishing around it to hide it. Basically, exactly what the link calls a "safe room". It'd effectively be a "stand alone" box, not really connected to the house, other than being bolted down. You'd lose or have to relocate your pantry.

Since you're on a slab, bolting it down to the slab would be relatively easy. Don't let the "10,000 lb bolts" marketing hype fool you. The bolts will rip out of the concrete long before they'll break.

Having thought a little about the garage version... That seems like it would be hard to get into in a hurry unless you've got a really big garage. My cars fill up my garage. To get into it I'd have to open the bay door, back the car out (and sacrifice it to the weather), close the bay door, then get the family into the shelter. Not exactly a fast process. If you knew that a storm was coming, I suppose you could leave the car out.

They also seem rather small. Not a big deal for a raging thunderstorm where you're only in it for a few minutes, but for something like a hurricane that could take hours to pass by, it might get a little stuffy inside.

[oldogy]

Depending on your local zoning, amount and topography of the property, would a 'guest house" or another garage with basement be an option. This is something the wife and I have discussed. The reinforced basement would become the safe room with the wife's studio above. But, we're looking at $25K--$30K with this project.

oldogy

Edited March 6, 2012 by oldogy

[peejman]

I had another thought regarding the underground version.... what if it floods? Perhaps you don't live in a flood prone area, but I bet a lot of people in Nashville thought that before 2 years ago. A flash flood of couple inches of water in the garage would fill that shelter up real quick. I don't see any mention of that and the doors don't appear to have any sort of seal. No ventilation either. Perhaps I think too much.

[JReedEsq]

PJ,

Thanks alot for posting with the local companies info. My garage is really similar in size/style to the ones in the pics so it is possible that it might be accesible with a car in the garage if the the car is pulled all the way forward and the door is at the end. This is appealing to me since it wouldn't take up any room. My house is near the top of a hill so flooding shouldn't be an issue. This model is appealing because it wouldn't take up any room, but I am still concerned about cutting into the slab possibliy de-stabilizing things. One thing this website mentions is bolting a safe room to a patio. I think this would end up being expensive b/c my wife would insist on building a patio room around it to preserve the appearance of our back yard. You can also just roll the unit into a garage, but I'm absolutely not giving up any garage space. The biggest mistake we made when we had our home built was not to go bigger in the garage. I guess we've got a lot to think about.

Edited March 6, 2012 by JReedEsq

[peejman]

PJ,

Thanks alot for posting with the local companies info. My garage is really similar in size/style to the ones in the pics so it is possible that it might be accesible with a car in the garage if the the car is pulled all the way forward and the door is at the end. This is appealing to me since it wouldn't take up any room. My house is near the top of a hill so flooding shouldn't be an issue. This model is appealing because it wouldn't take up any room, but I am still concerned about cutting into the slab possibliy de-stabilizing things. One thing this website mentions is bolting a safe room to a patio. I think this would end up being expensive b/c my wife would insist on building a patio room around it to preserve the appearance of our back yard. You can also just roll the unit into a garage, but I'm absolutely not giving up any garage space. The biggest mistake we made when we had our home built was not to go bigger in the garage. I guess we've got a lot to think about.

No sweat on cutting through the concrete to install it. There shouldn't be any structural load on the floor in the middle of the garage. The hole is far enough from walls that connect to the floor. My concern there would be back fill and drainage. They'll dig a hole for it, which necessarily will be bigger than the box. Then they've gotta back fill and around it with something and compact it, else the dirt will slowly fall down and fill it up, out from under the slab. Any decent contractor should know that... I'd assume these folks do as well.

There may be some plumbing in the floor. If you've got a plumbing layout from the construction process, that will tell you. Assuming the plumber actually put the pipes where the drawing said to.

Edited March 6, 2012 by peejman

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Peejman's link above has a 12 minute install video. They side-fill and top-fill with concrete.

JReed's link also have videos but haven't watched them yet.

The interior safe room looks great for new construction. Old folks can slip and fall or have trouble with steep stairs. Same with kids and sick folk sometimes. Above-ground would have advantages in that regard.

Otherwise I like the outdoor in-the-ground shelter though you would have to go outside to get in the shelter. Peejman's link shows the outdoor in-the-ground shelter that has a "cap" extending out of the dirt a couple of feet. It mentions concrete construction, unless they are just talking fill-concrete on a steel or fiberglass box. Sparse description of the outdoor shelter. A better description is probably available elsewhere.

The outdoor in-the-ground shelter looks more resistant to a few inches of flash flooding, but a couple of feet of water, no way Jose.

We live halfway up a ridge. We can get an inch or two water if the sewer system gets overloaded, of water passing thru on the way to low ground. But we ain't gonna get standing water except if it is time for the old man with his boat full of zoo animals. Folks at the bottom of the hill would have more worries in that regard.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[peejman]

Peejman's link above has a 12 minute install video. They side-fill and top-fill with concrete.

Good to know. As I said, Big Brother has blocked the videos and I haven't remembered to watch them at home yet.

The interior safe room looks great for new construction. Old folks can slip and fall or have trouble with steep stairs. Same with kids and sick folk sometimes. Above-ground would have advantages in that regard.

Otherwise I like the outdoor in-the-ground shelter though you would have to go outside to get in the shelter. Peejman's link shows the outdoor in-the-ground shelter that has a "cap" extending out of the dirt a couple of feet. It mentions concrete construction, unless they are just talking fill-concrete on a steel or fiberglass box. Sparse description of the outdoor shelter. A better description is probably available elsewhere.

The outdoor in-the-ground shelter looks more resistant to a few inches of flash flooding, but a couple of feet of water, no way Jose.

We live halfway up a ridge. We can get an inch or two water if the sewer system gets overloaded, of water passing thru on the way to low ground. But we ain't gonna get standing water except if it is time for the old man with his boat full of zoo animals. Folks at the bottom of the hill would have more worries in that regard.

Agreed... I like the above ground, inside the house version best... though planning for it in a new construction sure would make things easier than trying to install one later.

As for being safe living on a ridge... a friend lived way up on the side of a hill. Several years ago a hurricane remnant passed through and we got several inches of rain in a day. The 8-12 ft high retaining wall around the side of his driveway collapsed and he ended up with 1-2 ft of mud in his garage. His insurance company called it flood damage and refused to cover it.

[Guest BungieCord]

Rocket City Rednecks build a D-I-Y, low skill, low cost, above ground tornado shelter to withstand an F5 (full episode).

And if the RCRN's had been fans of the Myth Busters, they'd have know

would have made it even more impact resistant.

If cost were no object, I'd prefer an underground model, accessible from inside the house. Then it could double as a convenient wine cellar and storage for my humidor.

[peejman]

The spray-on bedliner episode was amazing. I was really impressed.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Agreed... I like the above ground, inside the house version best... though planning for it in a new construction sure would make things easier than trying to install one later.

As for being safe living on a ridge... a friend lived way up on the side of a hill. Several years ago a hurricane remnant passed through and we got several inches of rain in a day. The 8-12 ft high retaining wall around the side of his driveway collapsed and he ended up with 1-2 ft of mud in his garage. His insurance company called it flood damage and refused to cover it.

Thanks peejman

Had occasionally thought about getting a flood insurance rider (supposedly not expensive though I haven't priced it). In case of foundations compromised by a rainstorm of the century or whatever. Maybe any insurance company would try to get out of such liability calling it "flood damage" even if one isn't really flooded by the water, as in lots of standing water.

Rocket City Rednecks build a D-I-Y, low skill, low cost, above ground tornado shelter to withstand an F5 (full episode).

And if the RCRN's had been fans of the Myth Busters, they'd have know

would have made it even more impact resistant.

If cost were no object, I'd prefer an underground model, accessible from inside the house. Then it could double as a convenient wine cellar and storage for my humidor.

Thanks BungieCord for the link. Watched the full episode. Had seen references to the show but hadn't watched. Expected it to be truly bad as are most reality shows. But looks fairly interesting based on that episode. Though padded with too many scripted difficulties, as are most of the reality shows.

They can only do so much with a 24 minute show, but would have liked to have seen more door construction details. It would also have been interesting to see more details of "idiot-proof strong" mounting the door to the concrete. Concrete is strong but brittle. I don't recall seeing them bury mounting anchors deep in the concrete but maybe they did.

In the sudden strong vacuum from a twister "near center hit" I wonder if the door frame or other details could be compromised by internal pressure, unless there is adequate but weather proof venting? Equalize pressures quick enough to avoid structural damage?

Would have been interesting to see a few 2X4 test-firings aimed point-blank at the door rather than the wall.

Perhaps as alleged in the show, weight alone would resist the shelter becoming airborne, but I'd be inclined to better trust it with some concrete-filled anchor holes a few feet down, with rebar connecting up into the floor and walls. Dunno nothin about it and maybe that would be overkill.

It is encouraging he used rebar-and-concrete-filled concrete block. That's what I'd figured using if I build a safe-room in the basement. When trying to figure out a way to stabilize the downhill backside of my ancient block shop building against erosion and settling, had thunk up that method then researched it on the web. Discovered that the technique is a traditional way to make an extra-strong wall in some situations. Usually people will just make overkill solid pours instead.

I liked the method for behind my shop because you don't have to waste any material building rugged concrete forms, and that location would be a bitch to pump concrete in from a truck. With rebar-concrete filled block, there are no forms at all and I was able to do it a little at a time with a concrete mixer and quickrete.

They were using some kind of squirt adhesive or caulk to lay the block before the concrete pour. Wasn't described in the video. Wonder what kind of adhesive, and if that is an accepted standard method nowadays? Or just a fudge to get the block laid quick for testing? When I was making the foundation reinforcements, tied each row of block together with horizontal pieces of rebar and wire mesh, using the same quickrete used to fill the block. I only laid it one row of block at a time, then filling with concrete and letting it set. That much per day was enough to tucker out an old guy.

I'd wonder if it is trouble getting a dense enough solid pour down a 6 foot narrow hole in the concrete block. One good thing about filling one row at a time is it was easy to fill with concrete and make sure there were no voids. I dug three foot holes and poured the footing, with 6 foot sections of rebar sticking up out of the footing where each concrete block hole would be. Then after the footing set up, thread blocks down over the rebar and use a round garden stainless steel "dirt scoop" to ladle concrete into each hole out of my concrete bucket.

It was slow and took a long time, but only an hour or two per day. If some kind of squirt adhesive would sufficiently hold the block, it would be a lot faster than tying a bunch of horizontal rebar and wire mesh together between the block rows.