Post Office Parking Lot

[hammerdrop99]

I just read an article in the magazine from the USCCA (US Concealed Carry Assc.) that states the post office parking lot is considered part of the federal building and therefore having a firearm in your vehicle is a violation. They refer to people that were charged for doing so. I was under the assumption that as long as you don't carry in the building you are following the law. Has anyone else heard of this regulation?

[Lumber_Jack]

hmm, new to me. I was under the same assumption as you. I often leave my gun in the truck when I have to venture indoors. I'm sure someone more qualified will chime in.

paging Fallguy or Oh Shoot!!

[subsonic]

I know of several PO's in the Nashville are that are in strip malls, common parking lots with retail businesses. Don't see how they could enforce it regardless, especially if you're just using a driveup mailbox.

[monkeylizard]

Title 39 CFR 232.1 says postal property, not facility. This would seem to certainly apply for the stand-alone post offices, but I'm with subsonic on the strip mall POs, not that my opinion would matter to a federal prosecutor.

Title 39 CFR 232.1

(l) Weapons and explosives . Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

(p) Penalties and other law. (1) Alleged violations of these rules and regulations are heard, and the penalties prescribed herein are imposed, either in a Federal district court or by a Federal magistrate in accordance with applicable court rules. Questions regarding such rules should be directed to the regional counsel for the region involved.

(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated.

q) Enforcement. (1) Members of the U.S. Postal Service security force shall exercise the powers provided by 18 U.S.C. 3061©(2) and shall be responsible for enforcing the regulations in this section in a manner that will protect Postal Service property and persons thereon

Edited February 27, 2012 by monkeylizard

[Oh Shoot]

Title 39 CFR 232.1 says postal property, not facility. ...

Yeah, CFR's are "regulations" as opposed to USC which are "laws".

The PO doesn't fall under the Federal Buildings USC, otherwise they'd have post as per that law.

USPS is an "independent" agency under the federal gummit, not part of it per se.

The CFR penalty is a wrist slap compared to the USC penalty.

- OS

[Lumber_Jack]

Official purposes? I will say it again, "I officially don't want my ass robbed"!

[monkeylizard]

+1 to OS, but the USC says in a Federal facility pretty much all through it in regards to weapons where the CFR says property. I don't see how the USC would apply to parking lots, except maybe those with controlled access.

Edited February 27, 2012 by monkeylizard

[Oh Shoot]

+1 to OS, but the USC says in a Federal facility pretty much all through it in regards to weapons where the CFR says property. I don't see how the USC would apply to parking lots, except maybe those with controlled access.

Well, I'm no lawyer, but the USC for federal buildings also says they must post, otherwise you can't be convicted; I've never seen a PO posted as per the USC:

"Notice of the provisions of subsections (a and ) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection(a) or (e), as the case may be."

So would seem to me that PO's in general must not fall under the USC statute? I think the one downtown is posted, maybe even with guard and metal detector best I remember, but think it has other federal offices in there, so it may be both a "PO" AND a "federal building"?

- OS

edit: a single "b" turns into this on this software:

Edited February 27, 2012 by OhShoot

[Smith]

Post offices are posted at the indoor counter. I can't find the specific ruling but I was under the impression you could carry into the PO Box area as long as you didn't carry to the counter area. Thus the reason it is seperated by a door and a posting on the inside door.

[babelt]

Post offices are posted at the indoor counter. I can't find the specific ruling but I was under the impression you could carry into the PO Box area as long as you didn't carry to the counter area. Thus the reason it is seperated by a door and a posting on the inside door.

I would like to know if this is true, because the only reason I ever go into the post office is to go check by PO box and I hate taking my gun off.

[monkeylizard]

The USC doesn't apply to a PO according to 39 USC 410.

The CFR I quoted doesn't require posting and only applies to the PO and it says property, so that would mean that the CFR is violated by having a weapon on the property that is not for official business. I assume that shipping one to an FFL counts as engaging in the official business of the post office.

For reference, here's the USC, even though it doesn't apply to POs:

US Code Title 18

§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

( b Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

© A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or ( b, or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.

(d)Subsection (a) shall not apply to— (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;

(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

The parts in red could be read to include HCP holders. Does anyone know of case law that affirms or rejects this position (for non-PO buildings, I mean)? I suspect this is where the TN HCP of it providing a defense rather than making the act itself legal comes in to play since techincally we're not carrying for lawful purposes, but rather unlawful ones, but we have a defense to that unlawful carry. Right?

Edited February 27, 2012 by monkeylizard

[Oh Shoot]

I would like to know if this is true, because the only reason I ever go into the post office is to go check by PO box and I hate taking my gun off.

Well, you won't find that opinion in the federal statutes, so I'm sure it's not the case.

If PO's do fall under the federal buildings statute, btw, carrying a 2.5" blade or longer is the same crime as packing a heater.

- OS

[kwe45919]

............if they can't see it, how are they going to verify in a court of law that you were actually carrying a concealed weapon.........( seen bulges on belts are moot since almost everyone carries something bulky (cell phone/flashlights/ammo etc. on their belts these days....

[Guest bkelm18]

............if they can't see it, how are they going to verify in a court of law that you were actually carrying a concealed weapon.........( seen bulges on belts are moot since almost everyone carries something bulky (cell phone/flashlights/ammo etc. on their belts these days....

Why would you even be in court if they didn't see it?

[Smith]

NIce article by an actual lawyer. BTW most PO are privately owned and then leased to the government. http://rlwesquire.wordpress.com/2008/06/09/question-about-concealed-carry-in-a-post-office/

[Oh Shoot]

NIce article by an actual lawyer. BTW most PO are privately owned and then leased to the government. http://rlwesquire.wo...-a-post-office/

Funny how he totally fails to mention Title 39 CFR 232.1 where the PO is specifically addressed.

One tip top lawyer, all right.

- OS

[kwe45919]

Why would you even be in court if they didn't see it?

Why would one assume you aren't the type to carry a weapon? After all, it's just a bananna in my pocket oficer.......