Thureon Defense 9mm Carbine for 3 Gun?

[MrBrian]

So I'm thinking about getting a Thureon Defense 9mm carbine rifle, but I didn't know if I would be able to use it as my rifle if I were to do the 3 Gun competition. In the competition I would be doing, it states that anything with a power factor (PF) of 150k or higher will work.

I didn't know if anybody had done a chrono test on the Thureon Carbine or not... I love that they accept Glock mags, and I love that it shoots 9mm, but I don't want to spend the money on one and then have to also buy a .223 AR as well, just to shoot 3 Gun... Should I just stick with a .223 AR and forget about the Thureon until later?

[Oh Shoot]

So I'm thinking about getting a Thureon Defense 9mm carbine rifle, but I didn't know if I would be able to use it as my rifle if I were to do the 3 Gun competition. In the competition I would be doing, it states that anything with a power factor (PF) of 150k or higher will work.

I didn't know if anybody had done a chrono test on the Thureon Carbine or not... I love that they accept Glock mags, and I love that it shoots 9mm, but I don't want to spend the money on one and then have to also buy a .223 AR as well, just to shoot 3 Gun... Should I just stick with a .223 AR and forget about the Thureon until later?

Got me intrigued.

Everything I've read indicates that 200 fps more is about tops, likely usually less, using normal target velocity 115 gr.

Looks like a 124 gr +p might be best odds. For example Rem Golden Saber claims 1180 fps, so 1180 x 124 = 146320, almost there already. Just 50 fps gain pushes that beyond 150.

Get kinda pricey if you have to use SD class carts to get there though; I assume you have to shoot a lot.

- OS

Edited February 21, 2012 by OhShoot

[~48_South~]

Why would you buy a thureon over a standard AR,just curious? From what I can tell one of those things are running around $800 and you can definitely get into a legit AR for around that price or hell I would buy an Arsenal AK. The Thureon looks like a $300 rifle to me,and even if it did cost $300 I would buy a Kel Tec Sub 2000 before I bought the Thureon.

[Dolomite_supafly]

If anyone would like I can meet them at the Norris range and you can chronograph your gun. I brought it out this weekend for a few to shoot across. It is really hard to judge velocity without one. I have never had ammunition meet a makers claims in a real gun. Even hand load data rarely matches. Most are off by at least 100 fps in centerfire rifle cartridges and 50 fps in centerfire pistol. Now I will say that rimfires tend to be pretty close but they are still off by a little depending on the platform shooting them.

There is a modest increase in velocity from the barrel length of a carbine. Not ure if it will be enough to meet your needs. I have a 16" 9mm carbine. If you want let me know the ammo you plan on using and I will buy some and shoot it across my chronograph. Although every gun is different you could get an idea of how far off you are to meeting your needs.

Dolomite

[Dolomite_supafly]

Are you sure the Thureon Defense guns accept Glock mags?

I looked at the website and all they mention is Colt style mags.

I think you might be thinking of the Just Right Carbine.

http://www.justrightcarbines.com/

They do look similar.

Dolomite

[Steelharp]

http://www.thureonde...ck&catid=2:news

For Glock mags.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Steelharp

[McAllyn]

Don't use 150 as your target power factor. You need to use 155 minimum to allow for variances in temp, elevation, and standard deviation for chronographs. Personally, I'd look at more of a 160 floor. But, even using 150, you'd need 1300fps for 115g bullets, 1200fps for 125g bullets, and 1020fps for 147 bullets. You'll be HARD pressed to find any of those rounds available from manufacturers. That kind of pressure from those rounds are going to be putting your cases under a great amount of stress, not to mention what it will do to the weapon itself.

The JR that Dolomite linked above is listed as blowback, I would assume the Thureon is the same. Running a 150+ pf load through a blowback carbine is going to wear out, if not wholly destroy, the internals pretty quick.

As recommended above, you would probably be much better served to spend your $800 on an existing AR that is good to go from the start with parts that are easily replaceable from literally hundreds of vendors instead of pigeon-holing yourself with a custom weapon that isn't assured to work for your application and can only be repaired by the manufacturer.

Don't get me wrong, I love 9MM AR's, I just wouldn't recommend one for 3Gun.

Mac

Edited February 21, 2012 by McAllyn

[Dolomite_supafly]

Thanks

I Just didn't see it on the website when I was looking around. I knew the JRC took Glock mags.

Dolomite

[1gewehr]

I think that this chart answers the question quite well.

http://www.saysuncle.com/2006/08/30/9mm_performance_with_barrel_length/

A 16" barrel with a pretty standard 115gr 9mm load will reach about 1600fps. That puts the PF above 180.

I know that I see about 1400fps with IMI 124gr through an 8" barrel on my Sterling. PF above 170. BTW, NATO spec 9mm ammo is a 124gr bullet at 1200fps from a 5" barrel. PF of almost 150.

[McAllyn]

Cool, I stand corrected. Admittedly, I've never shot 9MM rounds out of any barrel longer than 5", so the topic of velocities has never come up for me.

Mac

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Don't use 150 as your target power factor. You need to use 155 minimum to allow for variances in temp, elevation, and standard deviation for chronographs. Personally, I'd look at more of a 160 floor. But, even using 150, you'd need 1300fps for 115g bullets, 1200fps for 125g bullets, and 1020fps for 147 bullets. You'll be HARD pressed to find any of those rounds available from manufacturers. That kind of pressure from those rounds are going to be putting your cases under a great amount of stress, not to mention what it will do to the weapon itself.

The JR that Dolomite linked above is listed as blowback, I would assume the Thureon is the same. Running a 150+ pf load through a blowback carbine is going to wear out, if not wholly destroy, the internals pretty quick.

I know that I see about 1400fps with IMI 124gr through an 8" barrel on my Sterling. PF above 170. BTW, NATO spec 9mm ammo is a 124gr bullet at 1200fps from a 5" barrel. PF of almost 150.

Apologies for a slight detour for curiosity sake-- Not directly related to the "sensibility" of using a blowback 9mm for 3 gun--

Was googling about nato spec and it sounds "in the ballpark" that a 5" barrel would be about 124gn, 1200 fps, though there is slight disagreement. I haven't a clue. Looks like the M882 is sposed to be in that ballpark, and approved for use with M9 pistol. One Wikipedia entry implies that is in a 6" barrel rather than 5" barrel, but dunno.

Found one fella claiming to have chronographed military M882 in a M9 at 1175 FPS. Maybe it varies... Close enough for gov work.

As best have been able to tell, this level of performance seems to be either +P or "almost but not quite" +P.

Just curious-- Reckon it really is true that a steady diet of that power of ammo could prematurely age a "fairly well built" gun? Ferinstance, Beretta 92FS, Glock 17, CZ-75, or Beretta RX4 blowback rifle?