CCW in church with ND

[DaveTN]

The CCW holder with the ND in the Florida church was a law abiding citizen and was not charged in the shooting. The shooting would never have happened if his firearm had a magazine disconnect. If Florida had banned guns in churches as in several other states then the law abiding CCW would not be showing off his firearm to begin with. I realize that there is nothing you can do to stop shootings by criminals other than a better justice system with severe punishment. If you think by carrying a firearm in church you can stop criminals yourself you are delusional. I personally witnessed a church shooting when my father, the minister of a Baptist church in Mississippi, was preaching and a man walked down to the pulpit with his dog on a leash holding a gun and ordered everyone out. He then shot his dog and then himself. In Mississippi you can not CCW in church but if it was allowed I don't believe it would have stopped him or could have been much worse with someone shooting a choir member or my dad by accident.

I am all for the 2nd amendment but it refers to the right of people to own firearms. It is up to each state to regulate it. I believe anyone who carries a firearm in public should be better trained than what I have seen in my HCP class.

No he wasn’t a law abiding citizen; if that was the case the young woman would not be in the hospital. Does Florida not have laws against reckless or negligent acts? He hasn’t been charged yet, but that doesn’t mean he won’t be; he needs to go to jail. He will almost certainly he destroyed financially from the civil case.

Carrying a firearm is a tremendous responsibility. If someone gets shot because you un-holstered your weapon; it’s on you.

ND/AD both exist. Whether someone pulled the trigger or a mechanical malfunction (like a slam fire) caused the discharged will not matter to some of those that defend the gun no matter what, there are AD’s. If you drop the slide and have an AD and it goes through the floor or ricochets off and kills someone it becomes an ND. If you decided to do your own trigger jobs, drop in triggers, or otherwise Bubba a carry gun, or buy a gun that is notorious for mechanical failures; you may well find yourself in jail or in civil court.

Of course remember it’s impossible for a mechanical device to fail; you must pull the trigger. (See how stupid that sounds when you see it in print) So if it ever happens to you, you will know that you pulled the trigger.

Edited February 16, 2012 by DaveTN

[Guest RevScottie]

“If Florida had banned guns in churches as in several other states then the law abiding CCW would not be showing off his firearm to begin with.â€

This fellow would still have experienced an ND because he failed to follow basic firearms safety. It would have happened in his home, at the range, or somewhere else.

“If you think by carrying a firearm in church you can stop criminals yourself you are delusional. “

Call me delusional then. While I agree there may not be an opportunity to stop an attacker in a crowded auditorium because of the risk to bystanders your ban on guns in church would mean that the pastor could not protect himself when in his office or attending to other things on the church grounds. That’s just a ridiculous idea. If more churches where reaching the outcasts of society as Jesus did maybe you would have a different view of your safety at church.

[JGunner]

I agree that I may not be able to stop a BG from doing harm in church (or at a movie theater, or the store, or wherever). However, if I am not allowed to carry while in church, that opens up a whole other set of problems outside of the church. I either have to leave my gun at home on Sunday morning, which leaves me without a weapon when I stop for coffee / gas on the way to church, or I have to leave my gun in the car, which I just don't feel comfortable doing. If I have a weapon outside my home, the absolute safest place for that weapon is on my person, in a holster. (I have plans to install a small safe in my vehicle, just haven't done it yet. Even with a safe the weapon would be more secure if it was with me.)

Bottom line is that in this country we have the 2nd Amendment in place, and it is my RIGHT to carry, and have an option to defend myself if I find myself in harm's way.

This has been a good thread to follow. It is unfortunate that such a horrible incident is what has sparked the discussion. I gotta get back to studying, take care everyone.

[daddyo]

“If you think by carrying a firearm in church you can stop criminals yourself you are delusional. “

Call me delusional then. While I agree there may not be an opportunity to stop an attacker in a crowded auditorium because of the risk to bystanders your ban on guns in church would mean that the pastor could not protect himself when in his office or attending to other things on the church grounds. That’s just a ridiculous idea. If more churches where reaching the outcasts of society as Jesus did maybe you would have a different view of your safety at church.

Isn't this typical of a gun hater? No facts, just insults. If they can't intelligently debate the issue, they ALWAYS resort to questioning your intelligence or your sanity.

[Caster]

Call me delusional too. You think God is going to rush down and save you because you asked him to? Ppffttt. He gave you two hands and a brain so you can do things yourself and so he doesn't have to wipe your runny nose every time you get the sniffles. You can give thanks for the mental and physical abilities we are blessed with and then put them to use instead of convincing yourself that hiding under a blanket will make the monsters go away. King David probably carried his sword to Temple with him, and he said it best: Blessed be the Lord my strength which teacheth my hands to war and my fingers to fight.

I know people like you. Good people at heart, but if you want to talk about delusions, look in the mirror. You're the type like some of my family who say "Only people who are looking for a fight, carry guns everywhere they go." You might be an alright fella, I'm sure you are but I said it before your priorities are out of whack. All the peace, love and live and let live hippies can unite and it still will not change the fact that the strong eat the weak.

[Guest nicemac]

1. When you serve on a jury.

2. When a criminal breaks down your front door.

3. When you are in fear of great bodily harm and not likely to harm a bystander.

4. Call 911

I don't mean to be trite but you should respect other peoples view even if you don't agree.

I am sorry, this position is almost the perfect definition of "anti gun or a Brady nut."

[Guest NYCrulesU]

I am sorry, this position is almost the perfect definition of "anti gun or a Brady nut."

Agreed. No way a normal supporter or permit holder thinks this way.

[MiddTennTaco]

I like "The gun went off" part.

When it is a car wreck "the driver failed to notice the red light" or "The driver lost control"

With a gun it is "the gun went off" not "The owner accidentally depressed the trigger" or something.

Apparently, guns are magic things that shoot of their own accord.

+1

A local news channel reported that a semi-automatic handgun was used in murder-suicide. One of the comments below the article said something along the lines of ~Wow calling it a semi-automatic hand gun to make guns sound more scary and dangerous. Most handguns ARE semiautomatic. What would have been better was if the murderer used a single fire bolt action handgun, then it would have been interesting.~

[BryanP]

There is nothing wrong with selling firearms that have different safety mechanisms. If you want one with a mag disconnect safety or a loaded chamber indicator or a grip safety then you should be able to buy one, but I don't see a reason to make it mandatory. Me, I carry a revolver. I never wonder if there's a round in the chamber and the only safety is the heavy DA trigger + the one between my ears.

[eapking]

This has been one of the best threads in a while. Sadly it began with such an easily avoidable tragedy.

This was an ND by an idiot, plain and simple. If he doesn't get charged, that in itself will be a crime.

[Makiaveli]

1. When you serve on a jury.

2. When a criminal breaks down your front door.

3. When you are in fear of great bodily harm and not likely to harm a bystander.

4. Call 911

I don't mean to be trite but you should respect other peoples view even if you don't agree.

I support your right to think this way, but don't expect me to be happy when you advocate taking away my rights. As to respecting your views, no I don't and based on my beliefs about why you think that way, I won't respect your views.

Also, #4? Seriously? What exactly is 911 going to do? Listen to your description of the guy killing you? If the crime doesn't meet the standards of self-defense, then there is no point in discussing it here. If you see some kids vandalizing a car, then yea call 911. Whether or not you have a gun is moot as you can't use it in that situation. If you see someone being murdered, then it becomes an issue.

[Tnscooter63]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/02/18/woman-20-dies-after-freak-us-church-shooting/

The girl died and I wasnt aware the person looking at the gun to purchase was her fiancee. So sad..

[chances R]

This may have been addressed already and I just over looked it so sorry if this is a repost.

Did anyone ask why he had the gun at church to show someone? Does that seem a little ironic to anyone else? Why not just leave it in the car and show it outside where people aren't right on top of each other? Why go in a closet to begin with if you felt it was ok to bring a LOADED gun into a church and be playing with? I do not carry at church because I feel like I am safe in my church. If you do not feel safe enough to go in and worship without being armed maybe you should find a new church.

Just my opinion.

In a perfect world, that hopefully would be anywhere you are, but 'gun free' zones are target areas for those wanting to create chaos. It is well documented that churches have been targets; presumably because of those folks not having the means to readily defend themselves. In one case, a parishoner used their own firearm to shoot the attacker. Look now at the security at the large churches....only the naive would think this is a safe place. The Bible also addresses this, so it is nothing new.

Additionally, to wear out the cliche` freedom is not free....as long as this remains a free country, we will have blood-shed, unfortunately some of it accidental. We can only be diligent in our education and safety; and more strongly punish the criminal element rather than putting them back on the street to proliferate.

[Guest NYCrulesU]

Sad, tragic ending to a story of stupidity.

I carry in church, as do many members of the church I attend.

This story just reminds me of why I have such a low tolerance for stupid people and morons.

When I see people fidgeting with or fiddling with their gun, taking it out to show people...etc....I typically get pissed and this is why. Shat happens. One second your Mr. Cool showing your gun to someone else. You think you are Mr. Gun Pro and you are "educating" some sheep....next thing you know someones daughter is dead.

Plain and simple...you carry? Great. I pray you train and are confident in your skills. But for the love of God...KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF IT TIL IT'S TIME TO USE IT!

Damn GI Joe, Range Master wanna-be's, Youtube heroes.....complete morons.

[eapking]

Plain and simple...you carry? Great. I pray you train and are confident in your skills. But for the love of God...KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF IT TIL IT'S TIME TO USE IT!

This.

[LCPfraTN]

....This story just reminds me of why I have such a low tolerance for stupid people and morons.

When I see people fidgeting with or fiddling with their gun, taking it out to show people...etc....I typically get pissed and this is why. Shat happens. One second your Mr. Cool showing your gun to someone else. You think you are Mr. Gun Pro and you are "educating" some sheep....next thing you know someones daughter is dead.

Plain and simple...you carry? Great. I pray you train and are confident in your skills. But for the love of God...KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF IT TIL IT'S TIME TO USE IT!

Damn GI Joe, Range Master wanna-be's, Youtube heroes.....complete morons.

My sentiments exactly, and because of this, I do support some sort of safety training requirement or other proof of having some safe gun handling knowledge. No different than the requirements to prove you know how to safely drive a car (whether you do or not is another issue) or understand hunting safety, etc. I am in disagreement with everything else that True Grit has stated. If we made certain that all gunowners were aware of proper gun handling and safety, then there shouldn't be the need for most other gun laws. If you commit a crime or do something as stupid as the gunowner in the story that started this thread, then you should be punished, but don't punish the rest of us with stupid laws that the bad guys are going to ignore anyway. I just think if we focused on the safe handling aspect of gunownership, everything else would take care of itself (wishful thinking on my part).

It does bother me when I see someone at a gun shop looking to buy their first gun, and it is clear by their comments and questions that they have absolutely no idea how to handle any gun, yet they can buy it if they pass the background check. (Don't get me started about the background check. That just makes the bad guys look elsewhere to find their guns.) I'd feel better if a first time gun buyer had to at least show some knowledge of gun safety and operation. After that, you can't fix stupid.

[Guest bkelm18]

Never ceases to amaze me how many people feel there should be requirements to be met before one gets to exercise their rights.

[daddyo]

Never ceases to amaze me how many people feel there should be requirements to be met before one gets to exercise their rights.

Wonder if they would feel the same way if the state required training or a license to exercise their First Amendment rights? Don't have a permit? Keep your mouth shut or face felony charges.

And I don't understand why the Second Amendment seems to be the only guaranteed right in the Constitution that really isn't.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

And I don't understand why the Second Amendment seems to be the only guaranteed right in the Constitution that really isn't.

Thats what I wanna know!! You have all these Flea Party people whining about their First Amendment rights being violated..... Dont they know that there wont be a First Amendment for long if the Second Amendment isnt around?

[Smith]

The location of the ND is irrelevant. I've preached with a gun in the pulpit on several occasions, when necessary, and you couldn't have caught me in the office of the inner city church I pastored during the week with out it on me. Very sad story indeed, but people are people no matter where they are. You can legislate safety of thought.

[JGunner]

The difference between a right and a privilege is where the whole car argument breaks down. Driving a car is a privilege, whereas owning a firearm is a right. At least this is my understanding, I don't believe driving a car is guaranteed anywhere in the constitution.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

The difference between a right and a privilege is where the whole car argument breaks down. Driving a car is a privilege, whereas owning a firearm is a right. At least this is my understanding, I don't believe driving a car is guaranteed anywhere in the constitution.

It should be a right. Its gotten so watered down over the years now that its pretty much ended up as just being a privilege.

[G27]

I support stronger background checks, closing the gun show loophole, stricter CCW requirements, no guns in bars and churches, stiffer penalties for carrying firearms without a permit and safer guns that have lower capacity magazines, magazine disconnects and manual safeties. I see no need for high capacity for SD.

I am not anti gun or a Brady nut.

Wow.

With 'friends' like you, who needs Brady?

[G27]

I'm sorry but I think now you are just trolling.

Gotta be. No way a real gun owner is this, well, libtarded.

[Makiaveli]

The difference between a right and a privilege is where the whole car argument breaks down. Driving a car is a privilege, whereas owning a firearm is a right. At least this is my understanding, I don't believe driving a car is guaranteed anywhere in the constitution.

Sure it is. Its the part where all powers not given to the govt are reserved for the people. Then we allowed the "general welfare" section to be used to reduce the need for you to think when choosing a barber or a mechanic.

FTR, I am a highly irked Libertarian, so YMMV when it comes to interpreting the Constitution