9mm vs 45

[Guest bigbuck_tn]

If you really get down and look at it you are only talking about 0.10 inches difference in diameter and even if a hollowpoint expanded to 100% of it's initial diameter you have 0.71 (for 9mm) and 0.90 (for 45ACP).

So 0.19 inches difference. Hmm... Almost 1/4 of an inch.

Are you good enough of a shot with a 45 that you could make that theoretical 0.19 in count?

And if it doesn't expand you are only talking about 1/10th of an inch difference. Can you make 100 thousandths of an in count under pressure?

On average for a given sized gun you will have around 50% more rounds than you will in the same sized gun in 45.

My opinion, you should shoot a caliber that you know you can hit a target roughly the size of an 8 1/2" X 11" piece of notebook paper repeatedly at the distance from the target you would feel like you need to shoot a target rather than running away.

Assuming exact shot placement bigger, heavier, faster is always better.

Put it to you this way. If you were standing at the free throw line and could win $1,000,000 for every basket you could hit would you rather have a 22% larger basket to throw it in or 50% more attempts to make the shot on a regulation sized basket?

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Terminal ballistics interests me...and I have my ammo preferences.

Having said that, I've been in LE since the early 90's and have seen many shootings with many different calibers (most courtesy of the Metro Nashville housing projects).

With service pistol sized calibers (9MM and above), I've come to the conclusion that caliber doesn't mean much. Shot placement is everything.

I've seen people dropped from a 9MM and I've seen people virtually unfazed by .45ACP.

Aggressive human beings are not impressed with being shot with handguns unless something very vital is hit...hopefully several times.

I'm issued a .45ACP. I choose to carry a 9MM.

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=237

Edited April 17, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[The Rabbi]

I'd agree.

There are so many variables (caliber, bullet style, placement, physical condition of shootee, clothing worn, temperature, etc) that any of them might make a difference at the margin, other things being equal. But other things are never equal.

[Smith]

I used to reference Chuck Hawks site, but you have to pay membership now to see some of the charts. Some of the research he had gathered, from many of the well know ones, showed "one stop shot" in .45's was like 92% and 9mm was 88%. These were based Police shootings nationwide.

He also made a good point as follows, http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2.guns.htm

"Because it is not as fat as the popular .40 and .45 caliber cartridges, a double stack pistol for 9x19 can hold between 50% and 100% more cartridges. The slight energy advantage held by the larger caliber per shot (345 ft. lbs. for the 124 grain 9mm slug compared to 370 ft. lbs. for the 230 grain .45 slug) does not come close to making up the difference. The shooter with a 15 shot 9x19 pistol in his hand controls 5175 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy, which he can deliver to any number of targets between 1 and 15. The shooter with a 7 shot .45 ACP pistol can deliver only 2590 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy to between 1 and 7 targets. This is one very good reason why the U.S. Army adopted the 9x19 and the Beretta M-9 pistol in 1985.

All during the post-WW II years from 1945 to the 1990's there were a tremendous number of articles and books written by supposed experts alleging the superiority of the .45 ACP over the 9x19. These assertions were usually based on theoretical models of stopping power (like the Cooper "short form") that suggested a large .40 or larger caliber bullet had some intangible advantage in stopping power irrespective of the actual energy delivered. These theoretical models seriously over estimated the stopping power of the .45 ACP and seriously underestimated the stopping power of the 9x19. Assertions that .45 ball (FMJ) ammunition was 90% effective in achieving one shot stops were common. The truth revealed by the 15 year Marshall-Sanow study of thousands of actual shootings is that standard 230 grain .45 ball ammunition is about 62.89% effective, and 9x19 115 grain ball ammunition is 62.26% effective in achieving a one shot stop.

More important to civilian and police shooters is the effectiveness of the best bullets in the calibers, which for most purposes are expanding JHP bullets. The top load for the 9x19 is the Cor-Bon +P 115grain JHP, which is 91% effective in achieving a one shot stop. (For comparison, the top load for the .45 ACP is the Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shok, which is 92% effective.) The 115 grain +P loads from Federal, Remington, and Winchester are all close, averaging about 89% one shot stops.

The effectiveness of the 9x19 goes down as the bullet weight increases and velocity decreases. The best 124 grain JHP loads average about 81-84% one shot stops, and the best 147 grain JHP load delivers about 76% one shot stops.

Remington ballistics tables (Federal and Winchester are similar) for the standard 115 grain JHP load show a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1155 fps and a muzzle energy (ME) of 341 ft. lbs. The trajectory of this load shows a midrange rise of .9" over 50 yards, and 3.9" over 100 yards. The 9x19 is one of the best auto pistol cartridges for long range shooting."

[Guest mikedwood]

I chose the 9mm so I can afford more bullets there by increasing my amount of training ammo and as a result time by roughly 40% . I use WWB ammo to train with, I have shot other stuff but the WWB is about the same as anything else in it's price range as far as I can tell.

My real fear wouldn't be the stopping power of the bullet but having a flier or a missed shot hit an innocent person. That's just me. I would think in most cases a 9mm would be more than adequate. I have known a few guys to drop a deer with a .22 magnum. The danger of most bullets seems to seriously degrade over internet forums and shop talk. All bullets have a vast potential to be dangerous if placed properly on target.

I do have a Springfield 1911 A1 .45 and I love it. It's a nice gun. It doesn't find it's way out of the safe near enough.

[dcloudy777]

With the state of expanding bullet technology becoming so advanced, the difference in effectiveness among all of the popular defense chamberings has almost become statistically insignificant. Shot placement is still way more important. I carry a 9mm during the summer months, and don't feel the slightest bit undergunned. Of course, the 10mm I carry the other 8 or 9 months of the year smokes the 9mil or the .45 anyway.

DanO

Edited April 19, 2008 by dcloudy777

[tmck]

I have never shot the .40...what is the recoil compared to the 45 and the 9mm? In my opinion there is lots of difference in the recoil of the 45 and the 9 mm.

TMc

[Guest nraforlife]

Heck a .22 will put someone down with the right shot placement. .40 cal here as I have owned 9mm and 45 and like both rounds but the .40 works best for me as far as punch and recoil.

[Guest jackdog]

Recoil is not that much different between .40 and 9mm. If anything the .40 has more of a flip upwards where as the 9mm seems to be more straight to the rear. Either one is easy to control with a little practice. As far as getting back on target I find that i'm faster with the .40 than I'am with the 9mm. But I have shot at the very least a 10 to one ratio of 40 versus 9mm.

[Guest dotsun]

I have never shot the .40...what is the recoil compared to the 45 and the 9mm? In my opinion there is lots of difference in the recoil of the 45 and the 9 mm.

TMc

I haven't shot much .40, mainly 9 and 45. The few times I have, the recoil always seemed a little quicker and snappier, but that could just be me.

[Guest darkstar]

I used to shoot a lot of .40, it is a "snappier" recoil i.e. more muzzle flip than a 9 or even a 45 ( to me a 45 is more of a "push" kind of recoil). It's not un-manageable by any means...just different.... I've gone to 9mm as I can shoot more for my $$$ and it is easier for me to get a follow up shot off as the muzzle flip isn't as pronounced.

[Guest tcampbell]

Thanks to all of you for your replies.

[Marswolf]

I also find the 40 S&W snappier. And I find the 9mm more accurate. But that's probably to be expected.

Still, I carry a USP 40 for open urban use and 92SB Beretta (9mm) for field use outside of urban areas. Also a 9mm H&K P7M8 for concealed urban carry. Backup is a P3AT.

I have never carried 45 ACP, but that is a good choice for commies coming over the berm. It will pass for urban use too,

But I prefer the 40.

[Mike.357]

Why not just carry a .357 mag and be done with it?

[Guest NoLimitSoldier]

9mm for life.

[Guest kwikrnu]

This is just my personal experience but due to the lower recoil of the 9mm I feel I shoot better with it than with a .45.

Both my wife and I shot better with my .45 than my 9mm. Much has to depend on the handgun and the ammo.

[Guest 2HOW]

Why not just carry a .357 mag and be done with it?

Cause its a wheel gun ? and the rounds power has been surpassed by the 9mm+p+ and the .40 and the 10mm and the .45+p and did I say its a wheel gun.

[The Rabbi]

Cause its a wheel gun ? and the rounds power has been surpassed by the 9mm+p+ and the .40 and the 10mm and the .45+p and did I say its a wheel gun.

'Cause it's a wheel gun is a reason TO carry one. Six for sure (maybe 7 today) and all that.

As for power, it is vastly superior to the 9mm +P+. How many people carry 10mm?

IN any case, the facts on the ground are that the .357mag is the gold standard of "stopping power". That is why SIG named their cartridge ".357SIG" even though "9mm magnum" would have been more appropriate.

[Guest Grout]

9mm Magnum was already taken.It was chambered in the LAR Grizzly if I am not mistaken.

[Moped]

Cause its a wheel gun ? and the rounds power has been surpassed by the 9mm+p+ and the .40 and the 10mm and the .45+p and did I say its a wheel gun.

You know the nice thing about a wheel gun? They never break or lose their magazines and they have no safeties to fool with. Lose the magazine and the best 17 round uber auto becomes a single shoot. Wheel guns may not be sexy, but they are darn near always reliable! somemore!

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Well, honestly I will sell you what ever you want. But you guys think about this, Im sure you have heard of the "double tap"..... two to the head or body. Well that was, at least I was told, developed by British SAS during WW2.... because they didn't have enough "stopping power" with 9mm hi powers.... and they didnt have enough 1911 45's to go around... So they figured two 9mm's was as good as one 45 auto... so they say .... "SAS" developed the tactic of shooting two 9mm rounds to the aimed point of impact.. which was supposed too equal the same knock down as one 45 acp...

So I honestly I believe if someone is trying to hurt me, Im going to hit them with the biggest thing I can get... in a handgun accurately thats 45 auto...

Again I will sell you what ever you want... But name an elite force or law enforcement agency that still uses 9mm to put down humans? Remember, its all about stopping the threat.... and going home alive!

Something to think about huh?

[Tacblack]

"why bother...it won't do anything but p**s'em off".

The dead people from round the world are going to be glad to hear this:)

[cadillacdude1975]

one you have carried and shot a .45 acp and a .357 sig, muzzle flip and recoil is nothing with a 9mm or a .40 cal. the .40 feels like a bb gun to me.

[deerslayer]

I prefer a .45, but I usually carry a .40, but I don't feel undergunned with a 9mm. If that makes any sense, you have problems, too.

[Guest Grout]

I've always been able to shoot a 45 ACP faster and more accurate than any 9.