NFA Guide: What you need to know about Class III firearms

[Magiccarpetrides]

Well im looking at doing some trading with another member that has an SBR and was wantin to make sure i stayed legal.

[Guest jwp]

Let me know if you have any questions. I'm here to help.

[kckndrgn]

Quick question, when filling out a form 4 using a trust, will a copy of the trust paperwork need to be included with the form for when sending it in?

[Guest thorn]

Quick question, when filling out a form 4 using a trust, will a copy of the trust paperwork need to be included with the form for when sending it in?

Yes, I use this http://www.86th.org/?id=nfa-trust

Edited November 19, 2008 by thorn

[kckndrgn]

Question...

In looking at the above link,under the "faq" section it says this:

Q.Who in the Trust can possess the items?

A. ONLY the grantors are the legal owners of the property in the trust and as far as the BATFE is concerned, ONLY the grantors can have access to the property. The restrictions on posession of the Title II items are the same for the grantors as it is for an individual owner, i.e. they need to be with it or it needs to be locked up, etc. Many people feel they can make a corporation or llc substitute here and add other family members or friends as grantors, this is a very special and possibly impossible setup and such an approach should be handled by a lawyer.

I've heard that including other people (not spouse) as a trustee would allow them access to the NFA item(s) without you needing to be with them, the above "faq" seems to counter that claim?

Also, does anyone know of any lawyers in the Memphis area that have experience with setting up a trust for an NFA item? I looked at www.guntrustlawyer.com but they want $600 to start with and any changes to the trust are extra. I've got a copy of Quicken Willmaker, but I want to make sure all my t's are crossed and i's dotted.

Thanks

[Guest QuarkMartial]

I've got a question about the CLEO signoff. I've been wanting to build a SBR 9mm AR for a long time now, and I just started to price things out because I was under the impression that the CLEO would have to sign off on the forms no matter what (provided I pass all the bg checks and such), which would save me the trouble of making a trust for one NFA firearm.

I found the following law:

§39-17-1361. Execution of documents by sheriff or chief of police. —

The sheriff or chief of police of the city of residence of a person purchasing any firearm, defined by the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. § 5845 et seq., shall execute within fifteen (15) business days of any request all documents required to be submitted by the purchaser if the purchaser is not prohibited from possessing firearms pursuant to § 39-17-1316.

Which seems to say that the CLEO has to sign off on my Form 1 within 15 days, no matter what, since I'm not a prohibited person.

Is this true, or can the CLEO still "play hardball" with me? Should I still go with the trust?

[BimmerFreak]

You are correct, technically a CLEO should/shall sign off on your form unless they can provide documented reasons why you are not legally qualified to own an NFA item.

The fact that you dated the Sheriff's little sister 20 years ago, and didn't call her after she gave it up on prom night doesnt give him a legal reason to not sign your application. (but you should have called her...lol)

Keep in mind that the CLEO is not the approving authority, so unless he turns up REAL evidence that precludes you from ownership, he really doesnt have a choice in signing.

Now, we both know that there are some CLEOs that are less than supportive of the NFA process.

If you find yourself in this situation, the NFA trust may get your process started with less of a PITA factor.

The trust will bypass the CLEO signature, but I think there is another much more valuable aspects by going this route.

The trust allows you to add family members, corporate officers, and friends to the list of authorizes users of your NFA items.

Want to let you Dad use your suppressor? no problem!

Want your best friend to come pick up your full auto M16 and take it to the range? good to go!

So, look at both routes and decide which one is best for your situation.

*I know there are a ton of NFA owners that have secured the CLEO signature in Shelby County, so you should be good to go if you choose this route.

[Guest Gun Trust Lawyer- David G]

While most of your statements are correct. A trust does not allow you to add corporate members. A NFA trust can allow you to add co-trustees which are authorized to use and purchase Title II firearms.

Other benefits of the trust are protecting your family from issues like constructive possession and inadvertently transferring a NFA item. The NFA defines a transfer to include "loaning" so technically when you go to the range and let your friend use an item restricted by the NFA you are violating the law and risk forfeiture, 10 years in jail, and monetary damages of up to $250,000 (depending on the type of ownership).

A trust can also deal with incapacity and death. The problem with most trusts is they instruct the trustee's to do illegal things under the NFA, provide little or no guidance for the Settlors, trustees, or beneficiaries, and make most of the things we want to do with the NFA firearms a violation of the duties of a trustee under the trust's terms. If you are going to use a Trust you should consider a trust created for NFA specific items.

You are correct, technically a CLEO should/shall sign off on your form unless they can provide documented reasons why you are not legally qualified to own an NFA item.

The trust will bypass the CLEO signature, but I think there is another much more valuable aspects by going this route.

The trust allows you to add family members, corporate officers, and friends to the list of authorizes users of your NFA items.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Gun Trust Lawyer- David G

[Guest bgbrix3]

Just wondering why no mention of the instructions on the actual Form 1, that read:

 

i. Serial Numbers and other Markings. If an existing firearm is being 

modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number of the 

firearm into item 4g and the name and address of the original 

manufacturer into item 4a. Do not Alter or Modify the Existing

Serial Number . If the NFA firearm is being made from parts, your 

name and address are to be entered into 4a and a serial number you 

create is to be entered into item 4g.

 

Since the firearm is the part that has the s/n on it, e.g. the AR15 lower, why would there be any requirement to engrave any additional information on it?  Per the attorney that drew up my NFA Trust, he concurs with the form, no additional info required on the receiver.  Thoughts?

[FireMedic]

In summation the NFA act is a complete headache that we shouldn't have to put up with and it should be overturned or revoked? That was my take away from reading all of that....

[monkeylizard]

[GooseGrim]

Anyone else going on a year for ATF suppressor approval?

[Johnny Rotten]

 

[GooseGrim]

15 minutes ago, Johnny Rotten said:

 

I really came here for the memes, the gun community is just an added bonus

[CaneyRiverDog]

On 6/27/2008 at 12:21 PM, TGO David said:

I took the cheap route and used Quicken Willmaker software to draft my Revocable Trust naming both me and my wife as trustees and naming my children as beneficiaries should something horrible happen to the both of us. In the event that neither of them are 21 years of age, the NFA items go to an executor for safe keeping until they become of legal age.

Tennessee does not require that a Revocable Trust be registered with the court. So it is as simple as drafting the papers and signing them in the presence of a notary, then having the notary execute their duties and notarize the documents.

Hint: If you use Willmaker, export the document to a Rich Text File (RTF) and then bring it back into MS Word or similar software and edit it so that the name of the trust isn't just "Joe Blow's Revocable Trust" but rather "Joe Blow's NFA Revocable Trust" so that the document has a meaningful name that distinguishes it from any other trusts that you may establish later.

I simply searched for every instance of "Joe Blow and Jane Blow's Revocable Trust" in the document and replaced it with the NFA version as described above.

In order to activate the trust you should assign a piece of serialized real property to it. Some people take a single dollar bill, note the serial number of that dollar bill in the trust as the real property. Later property assignments are made by amending the document with the appropriate form.

I just added an old handgun of no practical value to our trust and established the trust in that fashion.

Hope that helps?

I am definitely interested in this route. All those that have the education to do this are either too liberal to want to help or too expensive to hire. Did you buy the actual Willmaker software? Quick google search shows I can get it for around $250 but hate to spend that money if I cant figure out what to do next. I have never heard of RTF, does that mean I'm already in over my head? Is there a premade form that I just retitle and add serialed items and beneficiaries? I have a really good notary that works with wills so that should be the easy part. I would appreciate more info and instructions to get this done. I've been wanting to get a trust before buying my first can. Thank you for your time

[TGO David]

On 3/9/2024 at 11:05 AM, CaneyRiverDog said:

I am definitely interested in this route. All those that have the education to do this are either too liberal to want to help or too expensive to hire. Did you buy the actual Willmaker software? Quick google search shows I can get it for around $250 but hate to spend that money if I cant figure out what to do next. I have never heard of RTF, does that mean I'm already in over my head? Is there a premade form that I just retitle and add serialed items and beneficiaries? I have a really good notary that works with wills so that should be the easy part. I would appreciate more info and instructions to get this done. I've been wanting to get a trust before buying my first can. Thank you for your time

Since then I had an attorney draft a Living Trust for me and my family.  I would go that route instead.