Wills - do you have one, if so how did you create it?

[kckndrgn]

The title says it all, and the question is brought up due to a recent death in my wifes family. My wifes aunt recently passed away and had a will created from an online site, don't know which one though. Well, the family went to a lawyer today and he basically said that the will is null and void due to it's language. Additionally, the lawyer said that only a person who is a lawer can be an executor for an estate.

This just does not sit well with me, not really sure where to look to find out the specifics. Needless to say, I have a will from an online site (legal zoom I think) and I need to verify that our will is going to be legal and binding.

Any information will be appricated, Thanks

[Guest Lester Weevils]

We have lawyers on here to give the factual answers.

Probate law is different in every state and it may even vary by localities in a state. I'm relating my experiences in TN here--

Long ago me & wife made wills with some software on a floppy disk (many people are not old enough to remember floppy disks). Printed and got em notarized as it said in the instructions.

Then after mom died and we went thru her probate, decided to update the wills and bought another software, maybe a revised version of the old floppy disk software. I believe it was called WillMaker. We bought it online for about $30, download only. That was maybe 9 years ago. We printed several copies on the laserprinter and had em notarized and we stashed one set of copies in the bank safe deposit box.

Maybe those wills are completely invalid for all I know, or maybe not. They are very simple. If one spouse dies, the other gets everything (which I think is the usual default even if there is no will). If both spouses die the daughter gets everything. If daughter is dead too, it goes to other close relatives. No ifs, ands, buts, or complicated exceptions.

Mom's will was prepared by a TN lawyer. In fact that will was prepared by one of the most talented and bitter man-hating lady lawyers who ever walked the earth, assuming a woman needs a lawyer to completely bankrupt her SOB ex-husband.

That professionally prepared will was very simple as well. Two pages max, double-spaced. Everything left to me and sis, split right down the middle.. Provisions for grandkids if me and sis had both croaked. Mom happened to have near as many bills as assets. She wasn't an irresponsible spendthrift in huge debt, but on the other hand she did not have a bunch of assets either.

The WillMaker wills look awful similar in phrasing and construction to mom's will prepared by an expert man-eating lawyer, so I can't see there would be a big problem but what do I know. The phrasing and construction is nearly identical. Maybe mom's lawyer used WillMaker too?

That is simple wills. If there is anything complicated at all on a will even a cheapskate foolish person like myself would hire a lawyer to do it.

Maybe in TN a person could probate an estate without hiring a lawyer. I got the impression that in TN it would be a whole lot easier to have a lawyer to do at least the most important filings. Might even be necessary, can't recall.

In some states it is quite possible without a lawyer, in case a private party has time to do it. Speaking of un-contested simple cases of course.

A friend's dad died in GA last year, and my friend did the entire probate in GA without a lawyer, just by asking people at the courthouse what to do, and then filing the papers they told him to file. My friend is a fine fellow and very talented but he is not exactly a scholar. He said the people in that county courthouse were very helpful with advice and instructions.

When Mom died I was named in the will as executor (assuming I wouldn't have croaked and would still be around to do the gig). Went to BooksAMillion and bought a book, think it was called something like Probate For Dummies. Or maybe The Executors Handbook. Something like that. Maybe it was two books.

Didn't want to just pick some stranger out of the yellow pages, so wife had an old friend who's hubbie was a lawyer and didn't seem to be an obvious jerk. We asked him, but he had recently took on a judge gig so referred to his brother, who was also an older fellow of very good temperament.

I paid the guy by the hour to prepare the papers he needed to prepare, and tell me how to do the things that were just footwork that didn't require a lawyer. It was a very simple probate, which helped of course.

Anyway, ended up paying the fellow more than I'd have wanted (didn't want to pay anything at all), but on the other hand it was cheaper to do the majority of it myself (under the lawyers instructions) and just have him do the stuff necessary.

Now if for instance me and sis had got in some big fight over the probate or the will, or if some remote in-law had tried to make trouble for some stupid reason-- Once stuff gets the least bit complicated you need a lawyer in the worst way.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[peejman]

The title says it all, and the question is brought up due to a recent death in my wifes family. My wifes aunt recently passed away and had a will created from an online site, don't know which one though. Well, the family went to a lawyer today and he basically said that the will is null and void due to it's language. Additionally, the lawyer said that only a person who is a lawer can be an executor for an estate.

This just does not sit well with me, not really sure where to look to find out the specifics. Needless to say, I have a will from an online site (legal zoom I think) and I need to verify that our will is going to be legal and binding.

Any information will be appricated, Thanks

I'd really like to hear some clarification on the above. I know for a fact that in TN, you do not have to be a lawyer to be an executor of an estate. That's nonsense.

[Volzfan]

I had to get my parents will redone a couple of years ago. The lawyer that did theirs had made mention twice about a surviving spouse. Told Dad that unless he had some relationship that I wasn't aware of that the will they had was junk.

It, to was simple. 50/50 with me and my brother. A lawyer on White Bridge Rd did the new ones on the spot in about 20 minutes and only charged either $125 or $150 to do them.

If you want his name shoot me a PM. Can't guarantee that price for you obviously.

[enfield]

I used a do-it-yourself kit from Dacy (probably no longer available) about 30 years ago. Printed it up on the old dot-matrix and signed and notarized. I DID learn that if you store your will in a safe-deposit box, it should be a jointly-owned box with your spouse. You should let someone know where the will is stored.

[Just2Honor]

IMO, best advice is to use an attorney to draw up your Will, Power of Attorney (legal), and Durable Power of Attorney (medical). Check the yellow pages for a firm that states they do wills. The charge is worth the piece of mind that it is correct for your state. Mine, the wife's, and her mother's don't required an attorney and my attorney would not have written it with one of us as the executrix if it violated the law.

Edited February 7, 2012 by RoadKill

[kckndrgn]

Thanks all, got a little more clarification this morning. Since the estate of the aunt is in the red, WAY in the red, the probate office said they must go through someone who is a PR, (my MIL couln't remember what PR stood for). But basically, everything that was owned needs to be sold in order to satisfy the creditors (for example a $10K+ bill to an ambulance service for an helo flight to the hospital). I think in a nut shell, there was some verbage wrong in the will, so my FIL who is the executor is going to give up that right and let it go to one of his sisters kids and let them slug it out.

In the end, no one is getting much of anything from the estate.

[midtennchip]

Thanks all, got a little more clarification this morning. Since the estate of the aunt is in the red, WAY in the red, the probate office said they must go through someone who is a PR, (my MIL couln't remember what PR stood for). But basically, everything that was owned needs to be sold in order to satisfy the creditors (for example a $10K+ bill to an ambulance service for an helo flight to the hospital). I think in a nut shell, there was some verbage wrong in the will, so my FIL who is the executor is going to give up that right and let it go to one of his sisters kids and let them slug it out.

In the end, no one is getting much of anything from the estate.

Well, this is where using a DIY will can be a problem. I don't know the circumstances of your aunt's estate, so I am not commenting on it specifically. The issues I see with DIY wills (or trusts, or any other legal document, for that matter) are as follows:

1. execution of the will (it requires more than just a notary);

2. there may be other options available that the DIY will didn't ask you (and you didn't know to ask); and

3. failing to include (or exclude) provisions that are specific to your needs.

In a case where there is significant debt, a will may not be the best option (or only option). Where there are minor children, a DIY will likely isn't going to do what you need it to do, either. Unfortunately, there are horror stories about DIY wills that easily could have been avoided with one visit to a lawyer. Simple wills (and in the case of minor children, simple wills with a trust) are not that expensive. But keep in mind, you really aren't paying the lawyer for the will. You are paying for the lawyer's ability to ask the right questions and make sure your wishes are actually carried out after your death.

[kckndrgn]

Well, this is where using a DIY will can be a problem. I don't know the circumstances of your aunt's estate, so I am not commenting on it specifically. The issues I see with DIY wills (or trusts, or any other legal document, for that matter) are as follows:

1. execution of the will (it requires more than just a notary);

2. there may be other options available that the DIY will didn't ask you (and you didn't know to ask); and

3. failing to include (or exclude) provisions that are specific to your needs.

In a case where there is significant debt, a will may not be the best option (or only option). Where there are minor children, a DIY will likely isn't going to do what you need it to do, either. Unfortunately, there are horror stories about DIY wills that easily could have been avoided with one visit to a lawyer. Simple wills (and in the case of minor children, simple wills with a trust) are not that expensive. But keep in mind, you really aren't paying the lawyer for the will. You are paying for the lawyer's ability to ask the right questions and make sure your wishes are actually carried out after your death.

Agreed 100% While my wife's aunt has no minor children the adult children are behaving like... well, we just won't go there.

As for me an my wife, well, we need a will and a living will.

Can someone recommend a lawfirm/lawyer in the memphis area?

[Bubba0031]

I've known for a long time that I would have to be my Mom & Dad's guardian as their age increased and their health decreased. I went to an elder care attorney and entered into a life care plan contract for each of them. This contract basically provides legal services, for all estate planning, health care issues, issues dealing with goverment agencies, nursing homes etc. for the rest of their lives. It does not provide for probate service after death or provide representation if they were to be sued because of some unrelated issue. This was a one time fee regardless of how much or how little service Mom & Dad may need and regardless of how long they live. The cost, $5000/person, may seem high but this firm has willingly volunteered help on several occasions. I actually beleive the service has been worth it.

As far as myself and my wife we used a local attorney for wills, POA & living wills at a cost of $250/person.

[DRM]

Several years back, before we took a trip out of the country - my wife and I used www.uslegalforms.com (Advertised on Dave Ramsey's show) to get *something* on paper. It might not be as good as sitting down with a lawyer, but it's better than nothing. We're now re-working things, and I intend to sit down with a lawyer to get new ones drawn up for us.

If just one of us dies - it's not that big of a deal since everything goes to the living spouse. It's what happens of (Heaven forbid) both of us die at the same time or before the second one can get a new will drawn up that things start to get messy, especially with my business and considerable life insurance I have in place to make sure the kids are taken care of.

[peejman]

Well, this is where using a DIY will can be a problem. I don't know the circumstances of your aunt's estate, so I am not commenting on it specifically. The issues I see with DIY wills (or trusts, or any other legal document, for that matter) are as follows:

1. execution of the will (it requires more than just a notary);

2. there may be other options available that the DIY will didn't ask you (and you didn't know to ask); and

3. failing to include (or exclude) provisions that are specific to your needs.

In a case where there is significant debt, a will may not be the best option (or only option). Where there are minor children, a DIY will likely isn't going to do what you need it to do, either. Unfortunately, there are horror stories about DIY wills that easily could have been avoided with one visit to a lawyer. Simple wills (and in the case of minor children, simple wills with a trust) are not that expensive. But keep in mind, you really aren't paying the lawyer for the will. You are paying for the lawyer's ability to ask the right questions and make sure your wishes are actually carried out after your death.

Care to elaborate on the highlighted parts?

[Guest mustangdave]

2 words...Legal ZOOM...worked like a charm

[midtennchip]

Several years back, before we took a trip out of the country - my wife and I used www.uslegalforms.com (Advertised on Dave Ramsey's show) to get *something* on paper. It might not be as good as sitting down with a lawyer, but it's better than nothing. We're now re-working things, and I intend to sit down with a lawyer to get new ones drawn up for us.

If just one of us dies - it's not that big of a deal since everything goes to the living spouse. It's what happens of (Heaven forbid) both of us die at the same time or before the second one can get a new will drawn up that things start to get messy, especially with my business and considerable life insurance I have in place to make sure the kids are taken care of.

I would hope that the life insurance is NOT affected by the will. That's one of those "questions" a lawyer would be asking that an online forms website might not.

[midtennchip]

Care to elaborate on the highlighted parts?

The notary is needed to notarize the signature of the witnesses to the will, not the signature of the person who is executing the will. If a will was only signed by a notary (and not by two witnesses), the will is invalid in TN.

Edited February 8, 2012 by midtennchip

[DRM]

I would hope that the life insurance is NOT affected by the will. That's one of those "questions" a lawyer would be asking that an online forms website might not.

Directly - no affect, the policies stand alone. Indirectly - yes, as it all applies to what happens to my business, our money, and our kids if we are gone.

[DRM]

BTW, thanks for the thread - it reminded me to make an appointment for tomorrow to meet with a lawyer to tidy up our estate planning and some business stuff as well.

[peejman]

The notary is needed to notarize the signature of the witnesses to the will, not the signature of the person who is executing the will. If a will was only signed by a notary (and not by two witnesses), the will is invalid in TN.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Thanks for the explanation, midtennchip. Yeah, that willmaker software instructed to tote two witnesses along and get it notarized, and that's what we did. Our bank notary was off work that day and we ended up finding one at a UPS store.

[MikePapa1]

Chip, has given very good advice here. I see bad DIY wills quite often. For what it costs to do a will package (a will, a durable POA, and a living will) from a lawyer you can certainly save yourself or your loved ones a great deal of money and hassle down the road.

[midtennchip]

Thanks for the explanation, midtennchip. Yeah, that willmaker software instructed to tote two witnesses along and get it notarized, and that's what we did. Our bank notary was off work that day and we ended up finding one at a UPS store.

Sounds like you got it done correctly (assuming the notary at the UPS store saw the witnesses sign your will).

[midtennchip]

Chip, has given very good advice here. I see bad DIY wills quite often. For what it costs to do a will package (a will, a durable POA, and a living will) from a lawyer you can certainly save yourself or your loved ones a great deal of money and hassle down the road.

Thanks, Mike. I'm sure we see some of the same issues. The biggest heartbreaker I've seen was a grandfather who intended to provide his entire estate to a special needs grandchild (his two children had enough money, so he didn't want to leave it directly to his kids). He used an online service and failed to get it executed properly (had only a notary's signature; no witnesses). His will was invalid and his estate was handled through intestate succession (for those who don't know what that is, it is the "default" that is in the TN statutes). The's guys two kids fought it out in court, but the special needs child didn't get what the man intended. On top of that, the will itself failed to provide for a trust to handle the special needs child's money. So, even if the will had been valid, it wouldn't have done what the guy wanted.

Another happened within our family in another state several years ago. Without going into specifics, the wills (both husband and wife) did not get properly executed and the thing really caused some problems between the families involved.

Moral of the story - Saving a few bucks now may cause a lot of problems for the ones you leave behind. You won't be here to deal with it, but you may leave a mess. Some of the online services are pretty good, but it's like any professional relationship. Your aren't paying a doctor or accountant for the actual pill or document, you are paying for KNOWLEDGE.

Edited February 8, 2012 by midtennchip

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Sounds like you got it done correctly (assuming the notary at the UPS store saw the witnesses sign your will).

Thanks for the good info, Chip

Yep the notary saw the witnesses sign. Am real ignorant but had just finished working thru mom's probate. The books I'd bought about probate had long sections discussing what a good will should contain. Wasn't going completely blind into making the revised wills. Though possibly I screwed it all up anyway. The experience and learning of the probate made me suspect the previous computer wills may not have been up to snuff.

Mainly wanted to do the computer will so I could take a stupid-long time thinking thru all the options, rather than a half-hour interview with the lawyer. Maybe some time will hire a lawyer to draw up something, but we're not talking about vast fortunes to be dispersed.

Anyway, unless wife gets run over by a truck, she's gonna get everything anyway. Some of her female relatives lived a crazy long time, outlasting their hubbies by decades, and were pretty good looking women even in their 90's (considering how bad a typical person in their 90's will begin to look).

[Luckyforward]

Willmaker 2011, now 2012