Wolves vs sheep.

[Will Carry]

The Alpha Wolf leads from the front. He has too. That's how wolves roll. If you try to lead a flock of sheep from the front, you will get nowhere. Sheep must be driven from behind by a dog. So if you want to be a good leader, you must know whether you are leading wolves or herding sheep.

[Guest NYCrulesU]

A. I only protect myself, my wife and my two children.

B. No one else past that matters much, unless they are a direct benefit or threat to A.

C. "Sheepdog" is the most ridulous and overused term ever thought of.

D. I'm neither a wolf or a sheep. Just a man with resolve, testicular fortitude and one helluva mean streak when needed.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

The Alpha Wolf leads from the front. He has too. That's how wolves roll. If you try to lead a flock of sheep from the front, you will get nowhere. Sheep must be driven from behind by a dog. So if you want to be a good leader, you must know whether you are leading wolves or herding sheep.

There is that aspect.

But what about Judas Goats?

Judas goat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A Judas goat is a trained goat used at a slaughterhouse and in general animal herding. The Judas goat is trained to associate with sheep or cattle, leading them to a specific destination. In stockyards, a Judas goat will lead sheep to slaughter, while its own life is spared. Judas goats are also used to lead other animals to specific pens and onto trucks. They have fallen out of use in recent times, and in fact are now illegal in the European Union but can still be found in various smaller slaughterhouses in the rest of the world.

[Guest bkelm18]

A. I only protect myself, my wife and my two children.

B. No one else past that matters much, unless they are a direct benefit or threat to A.

C. "Sheepdog" is the most ridulous and overused term ever thought of.

D. I'm neither a wolf or a sheep. Just a man with resolve, testicular fortitude and one helluva mean streak when needed.

Now that I can agree with. I always cringe when people talk about the "sheepdog" concept. I'm not a leader and I'm not a follower. I'm just one person who will make the decisions I need to to survive. Beyond that, it's a crap-shoot.

[Timestepper]

The Alpha Wolf leads from the front. He has too. That's how wolves roll. If you try to lead a flock of sheep from the front, you will get nowhere. Sheep must be driven from behind by a dog. So if you want to be a good leader, you must know whether you are leading wolves or herding sheep.

Meh, cute metaphor but it really only proves one thing: Whomever came up with it really doesn't know diddly squat about either wolves, sheep or people. The one thing you can always count on about stereotypes is that you can never really count on stereotypes...

[hipower]

Meh, cute metaphor but it really only proves one thing: Whomever came up with it really doesn't know diddly squat about either wolves, sheep or people. The one thing you can always count on about stereotypes is that you can never really count on stereotypes...

Well said.

[Caster]

I ain't leadin' and I ain't real interested in following. I have ideas on following small group types that IMMEDIATELY benefit me and mine. Other than that, I got a GED and give 'em hell attitude. Let's rock.

[TMF]

But what about Judas Goats?

Judas goat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hahaha, Judas goats! That made my day.

[Will Carry]

I do appreciate you guy's feedback. Some times negative feedback is more helpful than possitive feedback.

I am a leader, a group leader for the Process Mechanics Group at a pharmaceutical manufacturing plant. There are mechanics that show initiative, that are hungry and want to do the best job they can. Then there are lazy mechanics who will do just enough not to get fired. I have to lead the good mechanics from the front and drive the lazy ones from the rear. My goal is to have all good mechanics. It can get frustrating at times. It looks like one of my mechanics is getting ready to loose his job and I hate that more than you could know.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Will Carry

[Timestepper]

I do appreciate you guy's feedback. Some times negative feedback is more helpful than possitive feedback.

I am a leader, a group leader for the Process Mechanics Group at a pharmaceutical manufacturing plant. There are mechanics that show initiative, that are hungry and want to do the best job they can. Then there are lazy mechanics who will do just enough not to get fired. I have to lead the good mechanics from the front and drive the lazy ones from the rear. My goal is to have all good mechanics. It can get frustrating at times. It looks like one of my mechanics is getting ready to loose his job and I hate that more than you could know.

Once upon a time there were four people: Everybody, Somebody, Anybody and Nobody. They had a very important job to do. Now, Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it, but Nobody did it. Everybody was capable of it, Anybody could have done it and Somebody should have done it, but Nobody wanted to do it. So then Everybody blamed Somebody because Nobody did what Anybody could have done.

If there is a moral to this story, it must be to pattern yourself after Nobody. Because Everybody's human, Anybody can screw up from time to time and Somebody is bound to catch hell for it... but Nobody's perfect!

[Timestepper]

Oh, and it's possible to lead from the rear, just as it's also possible to push from the front. The key to being a good leader is to recognize that, make allowances for it and then incorporate it into your overall strategy of leadership.

...TS...

[Guest 1911Girl]

This is interesting my husband says he is a sheep dog same as a wolf?

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Re the fuzzy language, perhaps it is somehow useful to help people think about these things, otherwise such language would have fallen into dis-use? Seems many mixed metaphors that are inconsistent with each other.

Another metaphor-- Loners, those who march to the beat of a different drummer, those who neither desire to lead or follow-- Those are the black sheep!

Wonder if research has measured the percentage of loners in the population? It isn't all cut-and-dried, because there might be people who are (in terms of the metaphors) 3/4 sheep and 1/4 wolf, or 1/2 white sheep and 1/2 black sheep, or whatever.

People can be suspicious of loners. A loner tag could keep a fella from getting certain jobs, or watched closely for anti-social activity, or possibly even placed on a no-fly list. Maybe the majority of people expect folks to either lead or fall in line, and most folks don't trust the individuals who do neither? I don't know from personal experience, but somehow got the impression that for instance military boot camp can be a tough situation for a loner to find himself in.

Loners can't be especially rare. All my ancestors of which I'm aware were loners to some degree. One uncle was a literal genius with high school education from a small town. In WWII army they tried to make him an officer and he refused. He invented a couple of aircraft innovations and happily let his superiors take complete credit. After the war he went to college awhile and decided they weren't teaching anything he needed to know. Got a gig at a big aircraft company and repeatedly refused promotion. He said he only wanted to be responsible for the quality of his own work and did not want to be held accountable for anyone else's work.

Wife is the same. She was offered and dabbled with management for awhile then got out of it for similar reasons.

Loners in big organizations seem to work out better in small departments or niche occupations where they don't have to rely any more than necessary on other workers, to get the job done. Ideally jobs where they don't even have to talk to other workers any more than necessary. Places where as long as they do an excellent job they don't have to deal with either underlings or superiors.

And I would hazard a guess that a high percentage of sole proprietorship small businesses are loners.

[TN-popo]

Here's the original "Sheepdog" article written by Lt Col Grossman. If you get a chance to hear him speak, do it.

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

Within the context of victim/non-victim mentality, I think it's a great piece and many, apparently, misunderstand it.

It really has nothing to do with being a leader or a follower.

I suspect that the people who don't like it fall into two catagories.

1. They're Sheep with no motivation to change and are uncomfortable with the "mirror."

2. They're really Sheepdogs who never thought of themselves that way or who are untested.

The uniform you wear (or don't) or the job you do have nothing to do with being a Sheepdog. There are plenty of cops/military who are Sheep and have no business doing what they're doing (unfortunately, I work with some Sheep).

And, they're are plenty of people with "regular jobs" who are prepared and willing Sheepdogs.

Edited February 5, 2012 by TN-popo

[Guest bkelm18]

I suspect that the people who don't like it fall into two catagories.

1. They're Sheep with no motivation to change and are uncomfortable with the "mirror."

2. They're really Sheepdogs who never thought of themselves that way or who are untested.

The uniform you wear (or don't) or the job you do have nothing to do with being a Sheepdog. There are plenty of cops/military who are Sheep and have no business doing what they're doing (unfortunately, I work with some Sheep).

And, they're are plenty of people with "regular jobs" who are Sheepdogs prepared and willing.

I don't like the "sheepdog" crap because it's been misused and misquoted to the point of irrelevancy. I am what I am. I'm not going to label myself as a "sheepdog" or a "sheep". I'm a human with a large variety of options. If the time comes where I need to be a "doggy" or go "baahh", I'll do what I'll have to so that I get the desired results. If that makes me a dog or a sheep, I honestly don't care.

[Guest NYCrulesU]

I personally think anyone that runs around calling themselves a "sheepdog", thinking it's their "duty" to protect the "sheep" just because they have a CCW (or not) are complete asshats. If that offends some, oh well.

I have served my country as a combat vet in the US Army.

I have served my community as a LEO.

I fullfilled my duties in both.

I now serve my family. My ONLY duty and obligation in life is to my wife and two children. No one else.

I am a father, a husband and a man. I make decisions and weigh the consequences for me and mine. No one else.

I am no sheep, no wolf nor am I some ridiculous sheepdog. I'm an no victim nor am I an aggressor. I lack neither confidence or heart. I am just an average Joe trying to get by...

That said...I have incredible resolve and unbelievable will to survive....at all costs. I have a kill or be killed mindset. And wouldn't lose a seconds sleep doing whatever was neccessary to protect myself, my family and to make it to the next day.

If that meant throwing you in front of a bullet to save my child....well, I just wouldn't stand to close to me then.

My mindset has been tested many times as a soldier, as a LEO and even as a civilian. My biological father once pulled a knife on me and threatened my life...didn't turn out well for him as he didn't see the next day. I slept like a baby that night and every night since. When the SHTF...I wil have no problem doing what I need to do to survive.

I don't need to run around with some juvenile moniker like "sheepdog" to make myself feel special or tough. My life experiences are good enough for me. Thanks.

Edited February 5, 2012 by NYCrulesU

[TN-popo]

I personally think anyone that runs around calling themselves a "sheepdog", thinking it's their "duty" to protect the "sheep" just because they have a CCW (or not) are complete asshats.

I have served my country as a combat vet in the US Army.

I have served my community as a LEO.

I fullfilled my duties in both.

I now serve my family. My ONLY duty and obligation in life is to my wife and two children. No one else.

I am a father, a husband and a man. I make decisions and weigh the consequences for me and mine. No one else.

I am no sheep, no wolf nor am I some ridiculous sheepdog. I'm an no victim nor am I an aggressor. I lack neither confidence or heart. I am just an average Joe trying to get by...

That said...I have incredible resolve and unbelievable will to survive....at all costs. I have a kill or be killed mindset. And wouldn't lose a seconds sleep doing whatever was neccessary to protect myself, my family and to make it to the next day.

If that meant throwing you in front of a bullet to save my child....well, I just wouldn't stand to close to me then.

Easy there, Sheepdog.

Mentality is the key. Who you choose to protect is up to you.

[Guest NYCrulesU]

Easy there, Sheepdog.

Mentality is the key. Who you choose to protect is up to you.

If you need a cute moniker to make yourself feel better, more power to you. You and others like you can have it all to yourselves.

[TN-popo]

LOL...enjoy the SuperBowl.

[Guest mustangdave]

WOW...just wow...this thread hit a raw nerve somewhere...wolf...sheep...sheep dog....its just an analogy...and sometimes a very fitting one.

[Caster]

Wolf, sheep or sheep dog. Either one makes a decent meal when your belly growls.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Loners get grumpy too!

[Guest NYCrulesU]

Wolf, sheep or sheep dog. Either one makes a decent meal when your belly growls.

Very true

[bubbiesdad]

A. I only protect myself, my wife and my two children.

B. No one else past that matters much, unless they are a direct benefit or threat to A.

C. "Sheepdog" is the most ridulous and overused term ever thought of.

D. I'm neither a wolf or a sheep. Just a man with resolve, testicular fortitude and one helluva mean streak when needed.

Like him?

Edited February 6, 2012 by bubbiesdad

[Timestepper]

I guess, since we're using analogies and monikers (and since I took the time to re-read the entire original article referenced by TN-popo), then I must be a mountain lion...

That is to say that I am neither sheep, (I don't hang out with nor follow the herd, nor look to others for protection) nor sheep dog (I don't feel particularly obligated to protect the herd), nor wolf (I don't habitually prey upon the herd). Nope, I pretty much just go my own way and do my own thing and don't bother folks much, although I can be counted upon to protect my own and am not above socializing occasionally with others of like mind. Further, most won't even know I've been there until after I've gone, even though I don't necessarily go out of my way to avoid notice. I have led on occasion and done a fair job of it and I have also followed in the tracks of others when it was worthwhile for me to do so. But mostly I do what I need to do when I need to do it and I do it with the certain knowledge that I'm doing it to the best of my ability. I am not necessarily gentle, but neither am I overly aggressive and for the most part, I couldn't give two hoots what the rest of the world is doing as long as I am able to do what I need to do.

I am a traveler, but I travel more for the need of travel than because of the need to go where the food is, although I am not above going in a particular direction if I know an easy meal is to be had, or that a restful place awaits where I can lie around and rest in comfort for a few days until wanderlust once again out-weighs the need of security and comfort.

As to the O P... Well, I think I've already said as much as I need to say on the subject of leading/leadership by inferring that if his sheep aren't following him like they should then perhaps he needs to re-think where he's leading them from - a good sheepdog's job is never done, but smart dogs figure out other ways to do the same job no matter where they're at. Or maybe he needs to let the wolves eat a few to show the rest what happens when they don't follow his lead...

...Or maybe he needs a Judas goat?

:-\

...TS...