You are the FTF buyer, any paperwork involved?

[Mike.357]

Well I just sold a pistol. I did not need a gun for self defense.

Imagine that, a guy from TGO is on the up and up and a everyday normal fellow.

Oh, dang, I forget to get a reciept

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Well guys you are playing with fire if you transfer any firearm without some kind of proof of where it came from or where it went.

Its simply like this. You buy a gun that is stolen then you can be charged with receiving stolen property right off the bat. What if you sell a gun, and and you do so to someone thats prohibited from owning a gun... or the gun you sold them ends up involved in a crime? Who do you think the local Police and ATFwill be looking for first?

I have two FORMER customers that come to mind that have both been involved in a world of hurt for buying and selling guns without some kind of paperwork. The first guy is/was a gun show whore, I mean every show he was there buying selling and trading. Well one day we received a ATF history ck on a gun he bought from us. It was actually from a local agent down in Brentwood... not the regular people in Va. We gave the agent the information on the customer. The next morning ATF, FBI and the local Sheriffs dept shows up at his door. They have a warrant, and start asking many questions about what he had been doing the last three weeks. The first item of business was where the Beretta 9mm SL# XXXXXX you purchased from Goodlettsville Gun Shop back in November??? He told them he didnt have it, he sold it at the gunshow... then they asked him "Do you have any kind of receipt to show who you sold it too"... he said.. and I quote" No, I dont have to have a receipt... I buy and sell at the gun show all the time... never have gotten a reciept for nothing"...

At that point the two ATF agents escorted him out and downtown to answer what winded up being about 6-7 hours of questioning. It was voluntary, btw... but he was really close to being charged with the murder of a police officer out of state. All this might have been prevented if he had gotten a reciept...

The other guy.. well he was a gun show and traders post whore. He had 15-20 ads in the traders post at any given time. He was charged and convicted of selling without a dealers license. What got the radar on him and got him caught is he purchased a stolen gun, then resold it and that guy traded it in at a gun store. So after the smoke had cleared he was up a creek and out of pocket for the gun he purchased and all the legal bills(it took all his retirement and he had to sell his house) and two years in the federal pen.

So my advice is... get/give a receipt for everything.

[dralarms]

.....and no tax, wholesale pricing, no TICS, ect.

BTW in response to concerns, I always carry my secondary on my hip. I generally trust folks, but I'm not stupid either.

Usually I take the gun in my holster along with the one that I am trading.

In addition to that, most of the time I have someone in the truck as backup.

Well guys you are playing with fire if you transfer any firearm without some kind of proof of where it came from or where it went.

Its simply like this. You buy a gun that is stolen then you can be charged with receiving stolen property right off the bat. What if you sell a gun, and and you do so to someone thats prohibited from owning a gun... or the gun you sold them ends up involved in a crime? Who do you think the local Police and ATFwill be looking for first?

I have two FORMER customers that come to mind that have both been involved in a world of hurt for buying and selling guns without some kind of paperwork. The first guy is/was a gun show whore, I mean every show he was there buying selling and trading. Well one day we received a ATF history ck on a gun he bought from us. It was actually from a local agent down in Brentwood... not the regular people in Va. We gave the agent the information on the customer. The next morning ATF, FBI and the local Sheriffs dept shows up at his door. They have a warrant, and start asking many questions about what he had been doing the last three weeks. The first item of business was where the Beretta 9mm SL# XXXXXX you purchased from Goodlettsville Gun Shop back in November??? He told them he didnt have it, he sold it at the gunshow... then they asked him "Do you have any kind of receipt to show who you sold it too"... he said.. and I quote" No, I dont have to have a receipt... I buy and sell at the gun show all the time... never have gotten a reciept for nothing"...

At that point the two ATF agents escorted him out and downtown to answer what winded up being about 6-7 hours of questioning. It was voluntary, btw... but he was really close to being charged with the murder of a police officer out of state. All this might have been prevented if he had gotten a reciept...

The other guy.. well he was a gun show and traders post whore. He had 15-20 ads in the traders post at any given time. He was charged and convicted of selling without a dealers license. What got the radar on him and got him caught is he purchased a stolen gun, then resold it and that guy traded it in at a gun store. So after the smoke had cleared he was up a creek and out of pocket for the gun he purchased and all the legal bills(it took all his retirement and he had to sell his house) and two years in the federal pen.

So my advice is... get/give a receipt for everything.

Dang that's terrible, but I'm not worried about that kind of crap. I have purchased, traded, and sold a bunch of guns over the last years and I am usually a good judge of people. Drove almost to your town once to buy a gun, only to find out once I got there that the nice person selling it was a cop, and a very nice person too. I have bought and sold to a bunch of people and about 1/2 ended up being in LE. I do try and verify they are a resident of TN and not a felon, that's all that's required by law. Even had one guy show me his handgun permit with out me asking before we did our deal. I don;t worry about the deals I have done FTF through TGO or any of the other boards.

I did do one deal (I bought 2 guns from a guy) and had bad fellings about it later since 2 months after I bought the guns he was gone, moved out of the house. I need to get the SN's run but haven't had the time.

[molonlabetn]

Another really good idea is to only carry a gun which you know has a clean history. I'd really hate to be involved in a justified shoot, only to find out that I had used somebody elses murder weapon that had been ditched at a gun-show, FTF second or third-hand.

I don't care if somebody doesn't want to sign a reciept, that's their business. But I won't take possession of a gun which I plan to use for self-defense if there isn't some verifiable point in time which I recieved it, and from whom... that's just the nature of the society we exist in, otherwise why even bother going to the trouble of paying for and registering a carry permit to begin with, if the odds of getting caught are so low?

[Mike.357]

I go along witth what dralarms said.

I do not buy and selll like a gun show whore. Those types are borderline gun dealers. And that is a totally different scenario.

If the gov't wanted me to have paper on a sale they would specify so in law.

About the only paper work I will worry about is that tonight I will pull the original reciept from the gun I sold today and mark on it that I sold it for cash and how much I recieved.

[Guest kwikrnu]

I think the examples above are extreme. Most people do not buy and sell like the gun show whore mentioned above. Most nice guns that someone would want are probably not involved in a crime. The first case glock mentioned was where police questioned a subject. That can happen to anyone about anything anyway my wife was booked at metro because she was driving without a driver license on her person(she had a valid license and she has never got a ticket, ever).

Edited April 17, 2008 by kwikrnu

[dralarms]

I go along witth what dralarms said.

I do not buy and selll like a gun show whore. Those types are borderline gun dealers. And that is a totally different scenario.

If the gov't wanted me to have paper on a sale they would specify so in law.

About the only paper work I will worry about is that tonight I will pull the original reciept from the gun I sold today and mark on it that I sold it for cash and how much I recieved.

Yep as a matter of fact, I'm selling one tomorrow FTF to a 20yr old:eek:. Don't tell the jack booted thugs, they might actually find out it's legal.

[DaveTN]

Is there any benefit to the BUYER for a contract for a FTF transaction.

I've thought about it and I don't see any benefit(s). Am I missing something?

It depends on where you go. I don’t know about <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State><ST1:pTennessee</st1:State> but in <st1:State><ST1:pIllinois</st1:State> possession of a stolen firearm is a felony. You go straight to jail.

Having a receipt may or may not keep you from getting arrested; but it would probably keep you from being prosecuted.

[Guest dotsun]

It depends on where you go. I don’t know about <st1:state><st1>:pTennessee</st1> but in <st1:state><st1>:pIllinois</st1> possession of a stolen firearm is a felony. You go straight to jail. </st1:state></st1:state>

Having a receipt may or may not keep you from getting arrested; but it would probably keep you from being prosecuted.

Just another reason to live in the great State of Tennessee.

[Guest GregRN]

I've never had a receipt for a FTF gun sell. But then again, I've only sold 3 guns in my life, and I know who bought them. Know them well.

[Guest Mugster]

I am more worried about getting whacked in the head from somebody I don't know.They already know I am coming to meet them with a chunk of change in my pocket or am bringing a gun to sell. Always feels a little weird to be checking out a gun for purchase in a gas station or Wally World parking lot also. I have decided taking a buddy with a gun also is the way to go. Anyone else have any precautions?

Yeah, its a good idea to take an armed buddy with you, imo. No telling who or what kind of weirdness you'll run into.

Its also a good idea imo, to give the serial number of a used gun to a dealer and let them run it, see if it comes up clean.

And no, I wouldn't require any info (license or reciept) assuming I ever sell anything. I swore an oath to never again buy a used gun, but assuming I did, I would't like giving a copy of my license to somebody or sign anything...but i might if i really wanted the thing. You just never know. 10 years down the road, after a nasty domestic violence situation in a state far away...the cops kick in a door, and cut open a safe...and find a copy of your driver's license sitting on top of 20 pounds of foot powder.

Edited May 1, 2008 by Mugster
more info

[Mike.357]

give the serial number of a used gun to a dealer and let them run it

I am curious why a FFL would even want to get involved in this?

I would not do it if I held a license.

[DaveTN]

Can an FFL even run a serial number that he is not submitting for approval on a sale? Do FFL’s have access to NCIC?

[xd shooter]

I have never sold a gun in fact I still have every gun I've ever owned, including my brother's guns after he passed. on the other hand for me to buy a gun FTF I would want some paperwork to help cover my butt. I am a trusting soul & usually a nice guy, but I know not everyone I meet is.

[Guest Mugster]

Can an FFL even run a serial number that he is not submitting for approval on a sale? Do FFL’s have access to NCIC?

I don't know. I always thought they called the sheriff's dept, which i guess i could do myself. I don't know anyone that works in law enforcement anymore though.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

i run serial numbers thru Goodlettsville Police Dept.... the gun and hte customer have to be in my store in order to run them.

[Fallguy]

Here is a link to a from on the state's website where a pawn dealer or FFL can submit a firearm(s) by fax to TICS to see if they are stolen. Not sure if a private citizen could use it or not.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

they cant thats for dealers only.

[Mike.357]

the gun and hte customer have to be in my store in order to run them.

G Meister is that a rule or just your policy?<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[GLOCKMEISTER]

well, we have to be in possession of the gun in order to run the serial number. Thats a rule via NCIC/TCIC... same goes for a police officer running it. Thing is if it comes back on the hot sheet they have to be able to take possession of the firearm and question the person bringing it in. Thus the reason its our policy to have the customer here as well.

[Mike.357]

Thats about what I was thinking Glockmeister.

Do you know if manufacturers are alerted to stolen gun serial numbers?

[Guest Mugster]

Thats about what I was thinking Glockmeister.

Do you know if manufacturers are alerted to stolen gun serial numbers?

They run them as a matter of course when they get them in. Or at least ruger does (for sure), and I'm sure its a common practice. Only makes good sense.

Out of curiosity, why wouldn't you run a check on a gun for somebody, assuming you had an FFL? I really don't understand the logic. Seems like a good idea all around. I completely understand wanting to keep a gun off the books if you are paranoid that way, but as far as I know they don't send an owners name in anyway on a check.

[Mike.357]

Out of curiosity, why wouldn't you run a check on a gun for somebody, assuming you had an FFL?

Okay, so you come into my fictional gun shop with a weapon. You want me to run the numbers on it for you. I run the numbers and find the gun is reported stolen. do I give it back to you? Do I call police for them to come speak to you? I am just not sure whats in it for me as a fictional gun shop owner. Why would I want to involve myself in something that does not aid my business? I do not take the financial risk of operating a business to get involved with stolen firearms. The police will be happy to run the numbers for you I believe.

[Guest kwikrnu]

The police will be happy to run the numbers for you I believe.

If you go down to the station and ask them to run a check on your gun they'll probably hold you up just for asking. Then if it is found the gun is stolen you'll probably be locked up. It is probably best just to hold on to the gun and not say anything unless you know for sure it was used in a crime and if you know for sure #1 why did you buy it? #2 why not just drop it into the lake?

[Mike.357]

If you go down to the station and ask them to run a check on your gun they'll probably hold you up just for asking. Then if it is found the gun is stolen you'll probably be locked up.

my guess is they will run the gun only if you present them the gun, not just a set of numbers. If it is stolen they will not give it back to you. Not so sure they will book you.

And this being the case why would I as a fictional FFL holder want to be involved.

Now maybe for an established customer who I have a standing relationship with. But certainly not for some schmoe off the street.