Ammo Rotation

[Guest FroggyOne2]

HE FOLLOWING TRAINING ADVISORY WAS FORWARDED FROM GWINETT COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT - LAWRENCEVILLE, GA

In September of this year a GCPD officer was involved in a situation which quickly became a use of deadly force incident. When the officer made the decision to use deadly force, the chambered round in his duty pistol did not fire. Fortunately, the officer used good tactics, remembered his training and cleared the malfunction, successfully ending the encounter.

The misfired round, which had a full firing pin strike, was collected and was later sent to the manufacturer for analysis. Their analysis showed the following: ".the cause of the misfire was determined to be from the primer mix being knocked out of the primer when the round was cycled through the firearm multiple times". We also sent an additional 2,000 rounds of the Winchester 9mm duty ammunition to the manufacturer. All 2,000 rounds were successfully fired.

In discussions with the officer, we discovered that since he has small children at home, he unloads his duty weapon daily. His routine is to eject the chambered round to store the weapon. Prior to returning to duty he chambers the top round in his primary magazine, then takes the previously ejected round and puts in back in the magazine. Those two rounds were repeatedly cycled and had been since duty ammunition was issued in February or March of 2011, resulting in as many as 100 chambering and extracting cycles. This caused an internal failure of the primer, not discernible by external inspection.

This advisory is to inform all sworn personnel that repeated cycling of duty rounds is to be avoided. As a reminder, when loading the weapon, load from the magazine and do not drop the round directly into the chamber. If an officer's only method of safe home storage is to unload the weapon, the Firearms Training Unit suggests that you unload an entire magazine and rotate those rounds. In addition, you should also rotate through all 3 duty magazines, so that all 52 duty rounds are cycled, not just a few rounds. A more practical method of home storage is probably to use a trigger lock or a locked storage box.

FURTHER GUIDANCE FROM ATF FIREARMS TECHNOLOGY BRANCH:

The primer compound separation is a risk of repeatedly chambering the same round. The more common issue is bullet setback, which increases the chamber pressures often resulting in more negative effects.

SOD RECOMMENDATION:

In addition to following the guidance provided above of constantly rotating duty ammunition that is removed during the unloading/reloading of the weapon, training ammunition utilized during firearm sustainment and weapon manipulation drills, should also be discarded if it has been inserted into the chamber more than twice. This practice lessens the likelihood of a failure to fire or more catastrophic results.

[Garufa]

That's for posting. Obviously a professional with training does not understand what I took to be common knowledge, at least as far as the bullet set back goes.

Great reminder for everyone.

[Oh Shoot]

That's for posting. Obviously a professional with training does not understand what I took to be common knowledge, at least as far as the bullet set back goes....

Yeah, but I must admit, I've never hear of internal primer failure before.

- OS

[Parrothead]

Interesting.....do we have any information on the ammo? Article states they sent 2,000 rounds of Winchester duty ammo to the factory for tests (kinda like asking a chef if the food is good) and all rounds fired without issue. Can i assume this was Winchester ammo?

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Never assume anything, but it might be a good presumption that it was as you said..

[Jonnin]

Interesting. It makes sense, the primers when they come apart seem to have a powdery substance held in place by some thin metal sheets folded up over the stuff.

Also interesting was the bullet setback issue, which I can only imagine is a very large boom if using police duty ammo, which I would guess is the top end of pressure to start out.

[peejman]

I've always rotated and checked OAL due to set-back concerns. Never considered the primer failing.

[walton6467]

How do you dispose of a bullet with a setback issue?

I've had this happen from doing exactly the same thing as in the OP's story. Cycling the gun for cleaning or showing it off, or just storage and re-using the same bullets over and over. I have a shelf in my office with three or four of these "too short" 9mm rounds, where the bullet has been pushed down into the casing too far.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

How do you dispose of a bullet with a setback issue?

I've had this happen from doing exactly the same thing as in the OP's story. Cycling the gun for cleaning or showing it off, or just storage and re-using the same bullets over and over. I have a shelf in my office with three or four of these "too short" 9mm rounds, where the bullet has been pushed down into the casing too far.

Maybe this way would be overkill or maybe not the best way--

One way would be to use a bullet puller to take it apart. If you are not reloading, pour the powder out in the yard for a few grains of fertilizer, spray wd-40 down in the case on the primer and get it good and wet, then toss the bullet and case in the trash. WD-40 seems real good to ruin a primer.

That is one reason for the advice against keeping a carry weapon excessively lubed. If lube manages to soak into the primer you can have a dud. An old policeman told me a story how at one time he liked to over-lube his pistol until one day he had to dispatch an animal in persuit of his duties, and the round went pop rather than bang.

The cheap inertial bullet pullers-- In my experience it usually takes a few whacks to completely pull a bullet. I've wondered if it would make any sense to try just partially pulling the bullet so it is too long, then reseat and recrimp to proper OAL. Maybe there is something wrong with that idea.

[Guest nicemac]

The cheap inertial bullet pullers-- In my experience it usually takes a few whacks to completely pull a bullet. I've wondered if it would make any sense to try just partially pulling the bullet so it is too long, then reseat and recrimp to proper OAL. Maybe there is something wrong with that idea.

There may be something wrong with the idea, but I have done it. As long as it is the proper OAL and not over-crimped, I am unsure how it could be an issue.

[peejman]

How do you dispose of a bullet with a setback issue?

.

I have a really nifty bullet puller... it's called pliers. Yank the bullet, pour the powder on the sidewalk, light it and enjoy, then toss the case and bullet. Someone will probably say that's not especially safe. In truth, I've only done it 3 or 4 times. If you had the proper reloading tools, you could probably reset the OAL.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Pliers. Simple and elegant!

In addition to killing the primer with wd-40, some folks just load the empty case in a firearm and set off the primer. That is maybe the best way to deactivate a primer if you want to reload the case. Wouldn't want lube down in the case and it is said if you decap enough live primers that eventually something WILL go wrong.

[billyscott]

Good post. Info I was not aware of. But why doesn't the LEO just put his gun in a lock box?

[Makiaveli]

Good post. Info I was not aware of. But why doesn't the LEO just put his gun in a lock box?

He gets a cop's salary and has kids. That means he can't afford a lock box

**EDIT** That said, just hit me that I do the same thing with my home defense pistol. I only chamber a round when the wife "hears something", but then I just reload the round into the mag and stash it again.

Good excuse to go to the range and fire off a few rounds

[gregintenn]

Is this a good place to extoll the many virtues of the revolver?

[Guest Lester Weevils]

...A more practical method of home storage is probably to use a trigger lock or a locked storage box...

The trigger lock suggestion in the article is interesting. Have never read a recommendation to use a trigger lock on a loaded pistol. Have many times read warnings NOT to use a trigger lock on loaded guns, and the warnings seem to make good sense, for most designs of trigger lock.

Have seen tough plastic locks which enclose the entire pistol. Kinda like locked-on kydex holsters. Maybe that kind would be safe on a loaded pistol?

[billyscott]

gregintenn, I agree. I got a few semi autos and I love to shoot them but for personal protection and home protection, I have revolvers.

And I had a lock box given to me. Some friends bought a house and found it, didn't know what it was, and asked me if I wanted it. I said Yeah, had two keys. That's where the guns go if kids come over.

[BigJim]

Is this a good place to extoll the many virtues of the revolver?

[peejman]

The trigger lock suggestion in the article is interesting. Have never read a recommendation to use a trigger lock on a loaded pistol. Have many times read warnings NOT to use a trigger lock on loaded guns, and the warnings seem to make good sense, for most designs of trigger lock.

Have seen tough plastic locks which enclose the entire pistol. Kinda like locked-on kydex holsters. Maybe that kind would be safe on a loaded pistol?

I wouldn't dare put a trigger lock on a loaded gun. They typically require some amount of fiddling to get them on/off (the cheap ones I have do). That'd be an ND waiting to happen.

As for a lock box being "safe". Not really. If the gun fired, the case might slow the bullet down a little, but certainly wouldn't contain it. But then... guns very rarely fire themselves. My home defense pistol moves from my pistol safe (little more than a lock box) to the nightstand and back every day. It's cocked, locked, in a holster, and only gets unloaded when I take it to the range.

[gregintenn]

Why is teaching children safe gun handling practices never advocated by anyone but me?

[RichardS]

Why is teaching children safe gun handling practices never advocated by anyone but me?

I firmly believe in such education. However, my wife still does not like the idea of my guns being accessible to the kids when I'm not around. I also worry about what their curious friends who do not respect firearms might do so mine stay locked up. I hope I'm never in a home defense situation where I do not have time to open the pistol safe but realize that is a risk/tradeoff associated with my setup.

On the original topic - good discussion, I've learned from it. I will not plan to rechamber a round more than once or twice before it gets used up at the range.

[Oh Shoot]

,,, good discussion, I've learned from it. I will not plan to rechamber a round more than once or twice before it gets used up at the range.

Some reasons I settled in on 9mm Golden Sabers few years ago was Knoxville police use them (then, at least, dunno now), they have plenty adequate performance, and I got good deals on them for a time and stocked up. AND that they seem particularly resistant to bullet setback from many re-chambers.

But like you, rethinking that now.

- OS

[Garufa]

FYI, KPD has been using .40's for many years, maybe still Golden Saber I dunno, but not 9mm.

[Oh Shoot]

FYI, KPD has been using .40's for many years, maybe still Golden Saber I dunno, but not 9mm.

Yeah, I just meant the brand only, bad syntax.

Plus as we all know, 9mm shows you're really a good guy citizen not wanting to really hurt anyone like the police have to do.

- OS

[peejman]

Why is teaching children safe gun handling practices never advocated by anyone but me?

Depends on how old the kids are. Mine know nothing of safe gun handling practices because at 1 and almost 4 years old, I don't think they're ready though the 4 yr old is getting close. When the time is right, I intend to use this philosophy... Cornered Cat - Disarming Kids' Curiosity About Firearms