Anyone harvest timber?

[broox]

Does anyone here cut down trees and sell them to a sawmill? I live in Nashville and have started daydreaming of buying 20-30 acres out in the middle of nowhere to play on and build a little cabin and take the kids on the weekends. I hoped I could make a little money selling some timber. I know there are companies that will buy your standing timber, but where is the fun in that? I would love to cut some trees down and haul them off. Anybody have any thoughts or experiences???

[ls3_kid]

Does anyone here cut down trees and sell them to a sawmill? I live in Nashville and have started daydreaming of buying 20-30 acres out in the middle of nowhere to play on and build a little cabin and take the kids on the weekends. I hoped I could make a little money selling some timber. I know there are companies that will buy your standing timber, but where is the fun in that? I would love to cut some trees down and haul them off. Anybody have any thoughts or experiences???

I have looked (very little) at planting Black Walnut trees before due to how much you can get per acre for the lumber (or from what I hear you can get). You can have 436 black walnut trees per acre with 10x10 foot spacing and with 10x8 spacing you 545 trees per acre. I haven't found an average price per tree (as I would have no desire for the actual walnuts) but I have heard a good round number that an acre of Walnut trees can bring $1,000,000 bid. I was told this by a tobacco farmer outside of Nashville.

If you plant let's say the 545 trees per acre (and you can actually get $1,000,000 for the trees) then that is $1800~ per tree. (with letting them grow for 40 years). Which would also equate to $25,000 per year over the course of the given time. Then you have to minus the cost of the acre, seeds/saplings, work, and watching after the trees. My biggest worry would be somebody stealing them.

Like I said this is vaguely looking over/hearing information. I don't know how reliable this is but it seems, if true, a good investment/idea.

[Murgatroy]

Does anyone here cut down trees and sell them to a sawmill? I live in Nashville and have started daydreaming of buying 20-30 acres out in the middle of nowhere to play on and build a little cabin and take the kids on the weekends. I hoped I could make a little money selling some timber. I know there are companies that will buy your standing timber, but where is the fun in that? I would love to cut some trees down and haul them off. Anybody have any thoughts or experiences???

I was raised in a family of loggers. I am the one that left and went off to college and starved for nearly a decade while they all raked in the money.

Things have changed a bit now.

Pulpwood is where the money is now, there is no money in lumber.

Have you taken into consideration of how you would load and haul the timber? Granted, my family (we ran four different cut crews) had the money in equipment. We had skidders to drag it out with, we had front end loaders to load it with, and we had log trucks to haul it to the mill. We cut both lumber and pulp. It was nothing to spend $10k a month just in fuel.

Lumber is what you build houses with, pulpwood is what you get paper from.

I spent a good chunk of my youth learning to run the equipment, but sadly I never learned the business aspect of it. I do know that the bottom fell out of it, and the only reason my cousin isn't bankrupt is that all the equipment was paid for before is father passed.

I honestly don't see where the money is to be made in it as a start-up hobbyist. To cut the timber to the point where you can haul it out with a 4x4 you just cut it too short to be used as lumber. A decent boom truck would run you over $8k to haul it out with, and that doesn't even take felling it or getting out to a landing into account.

If you want to buy a few acres, sell the standing timber and then get a percentage of it back in lumber to build with, there are several outfits that will do that, sadly I have been out of it so long that I don't even have any contacts left.

Just from a jaded point of view I don't see any profit in it at a hobbyist level.

[Rightwinger]

My father had a company that was supposed to drag the wood out with mules but then had to use a tractor so that lowered the profit. He was doing "select cut" not clear cut and he got some cash out of it but the tax implications cut even more of that out. As stated above, the wood is worth something but unless its something in high demand, easily accessible and in amounts to make it worth it, it really isn't that big a cash income. If you can do a lot of the work your self and just have it hauled you might make it very worthwhile.

Our land was all downhill for the loggers and we wondered what made it so hard for them to not use the mules. They ended up putting such deep ruts in the road to our cabin that we had to ask them to come back and drag the road, which they did, begrudgenly, and minimally. If you hire it out, be prepared for a much lower profit margin. The company you use makes a big difference as well.

My brother had some bottoms clear cut on his land and they had to skid load everything up hill to decks on the ridges, but the better run/managed company worked harder and got him more profit, albeit for a larger tract of land. Your mileage may vary.

[Lumber_Jack]

I'm a forester, have a BS in Forest Resource Management and have been in the consulting business for 8 yrs. I've read some truths, halve truths and falsities in the posts above.

First off the is considerable more money in sawtimber than pulpwood. Maybe not for a logger, but for a landowner, is much more. it is true that prices have fallen dramatically since the early 2000s and is directly tied to the housing market. I don't think I have ever heard of anyone ever bidding 1 mil dollars for an acre of timber, that is just a flat out exaggeration. Plus that timber was probably grown in a much more fertile range for walnut, like Missouri. Planting hardwood trees is a risk, they are expensive to buy, plant and maintain, it's a case of "have money to make money"

Now on to the OPs original question. Yes you can cut down trees and haul them to the mill. But as an inexperienced seller you would be at the mercy of the mill. You would be surprised how the prices vary from species to species. Plus you have no way of knowing if they are scaling accurately, and paying market prices. Also make sure you contact the mill and ask of they are taking 'gatewood' which is wood delivered which they have not previously bought themselves. If not, you could waste a lot of time and energy cutting an hauling wood for nothing.

At the very least you would need a stout tractor and a good truck and trailer just to get a few butt logs to the mill.

You're not gonna get rich off 20-30 acres by any means, but you don't have to accept that fact that you have to push the trees over and burn them to clear land. Those trees do have value and you can capitalize on that with a little elbow grease, sweat, and ingenuity.

If you have never felled a tree before, I would suggest getting some training. And I don't mean actual running of the saw, but actual techniques of felling trees. It can be VERY dangerous. Often it's not a matter of 'if' you get hurt, but 'when'.

When looking for a tract to buy, ask when the last time it was logged, if they say anything less than 30yrs ago, I would assume the timber value is low. Trees take a long time to grow and often times cutting is a one generation pay check. Never just assume that because it has trees that it has timber value.

Just some thoughts, I can add more as things come to mind

Sent from my Mom's basement

Edited January 17, 2012 by Lumber_Jack

[Lumber_Jack]

Oh and if you hire a certified forester, I guarantee you will get a higher price for your timber than doing it yourself. Even with the 8-10% fee a forester would charge. A logger and sawmills goal is to buy at the lowest price to maximize their profit. If you have no gauge of the market you will have no way to determine if your being compensated fairly. (disclosure: this is not calling loggers crooks, it's just the way the buisness works)

This is also not a self promotion, I have no skin in the Nashville area.

Sent from my Mom's basement

[Guest Patty]

Buy a Band Saw Mill, set it up on your place, drop them trees nearby, saw them up, stack'em leave them to dry, move the mill do it all over again. Soon as you can move the sawed lumber into a dry area, like a barn. Won't be long and it will become work instead of fun. lol

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I'm a forester, have a BS in Forest Resource Management and have been in the consulting business for 8 yrs.

Here is a silly question-- On my suburban back acre of woods (growing on a slope) maybe the previous owner back in the 1940's planted some oaks and black walnuts back there. There seems a geometric pattern to the oldest trees.

Ain't gonna cut it. Just curious. The oaks are big but the black walnuts are not big. I doubt the black walnut trunks are even a foot thick and they've been out there at least since moving here in 1982, possibly much older.

Is that pretty scrawny for old S.E. TN black walnut trees, or pretty typical? They don't look like they would make many board feet if cut and sawed.

[ls3_kid]

I don't think I have ever heard of anyone ever bidding 1 mil dollars for an acre of timber, that is just a flat out exaggeration. Plus that timber was probably grown in a much more fertile range for walnut, like Missouri. Planting hardwood trees is a risk, they are expensive to buy, plant and maintain, it's a case of "have money to make money"

Yeah like I said I have not done that much looking into this. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Lumber_Jack]

Here is a silly question-- On my suburban back acre of woods (growing on a slope) maybe the previous owner back in the 1940's planted some oaks and black walnuts back there. There seems a geometric pattern to the oldest trees.

Ain't gonna cut it. Just curious. The oaks are big but the black walnuts are not big. I doubt the black walnut trunks are even a foot thick and they've been out there at least since moving here in 1982, possibly much older.

Is that pretty scrawny for old S.E. TN black walnut trees, or pretty typical? They don't look like they would make many board feet if cut and sawed.

Sounds pretty typical for a dry site. Your looking at a minimum age of 30ish maybe 40ish if they were planted when you moved in. Aspect has a lot to do with growth and moisture availability. So is it facing south or southwest? Large 18-22" walnut growing on a good fertile site would take probably 60+ years, on a dry site 80-100+ yrs.

It's interesting that the oaks are bigger. I would have to assume they were natural growing, and/or much older. Oaks are more forgiving of dry sites than walnut though for sure.

Just a side note: if you have not heard of Walnut Twig Beetle. Read up, they are in Knoxville and probably mobile. You can take steps to check for the bugs, but if they are already there it may be too late, death is inevitable. PM me I can help you learn more.

Sent from my Mom's basement

[Lumber_Jack]

Yeah like I said I have not done that much looking into this. Thanks for clearing that up.

Stories get out of hand easily. I certainly have no evidence that bids haven't been that high, but I can assure you you won't get that in middle TN

Sent from my Mom's basement

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Sounds pretty typical for a dry site. Your looking at a minimum age of 30ish maybe 40ish if they were planted when you moved in. Aspect has a lot to do with growth and moisture availability. So is it facing south or southwest? Large 18-22" walnut growing on a good fertile site would take probably 60+ years, on a dry site 80-100+ yrs.

It's interesting that the oaks are bigger. I would have to assume they were natural growing, and/or much older. Oaks are more forgiving of dry sites than walnut though for sure.

Just a side note: if you have not heard of Walnut Twig Beetle. Read up, they are in Knoxville and probably mobile. You can take steps to check for the bugs, but if they are already there it may be too late, death is inevitable. PM me I can help you learn more.

Thanks, I'll read about the Walnut Twig Beetle.

The area between residential streets is wooded all the way up the street. Several parallel residential streets go approx East-West on top of small ridges going uphill West to a bigger North-South ridge.

The ground slopes down behind my street's houses. My street's back yards terminate into a strip of undeveloped woods in a little valley between ridges. Then the undeveloped woods climb a slightly steeper slope on the other side of the little valley until it terminates into back yards of the houses on the next street on the next ridge. I think that big wooded area between streets was never developed because streets in the little valleys would flood all the time and people wouldn't want houses built on steep slopes.

So my little acre of woods has the downhill side facing about South. It makes sense that the slopes would be "dry" with such good drainage. Hadn't thought about it.

Its an older neighborhood subdivided about the 1930 era, but real close to downtown. Haven't tried to estimate the wooded acreage on a map, but that strip of woods has got to be 20-40 acres in the valley going up the hill between streets. I bought the tiny old neighboring house to get another 3/4 acre of woods but haven't got around to fencing that yet so the dogs can play in it. None of the neighbors seem interested in their backyard woods. I never see anybody out there except occasional kids. If I was wealthy I'd try to buy all the neighbors out of their half-acre or acre of woods all the way up the hill. One could have a nice big piece of private woods practically downtown.

Anyway a few years ago when I was out back locating property pegs and clearing a chainlink fence line (so me & the dawgs would have a place to play)-- Buried in the underbrush was ancient rusty remnants of a collapsed barbed wire fence. The old guy who built the house back in the 1940's apparently had a barb-wire fence. Old dad guessed maybe the guy kept horses. Horses seem more likely than cows or sheep and a farm-style barbed wire fence wouldn't be useful for people or dogs.

Lived here a long time without noticing the pattern of the trees. Maybe it is accidental, but there is a straight line of oaks following the top property line and they are all about the same size. Couple of feet wide or better. Similarly there are dogwoods and black walnuts farther down the slope that look roughly geometric layout. There are new volunteer trees that obscure the pattern, and if the guy planted the trees some of the old ones have probably fallen down since.

Apologies wasting so many valuable bits on rambling trivia.

[Guest pfries]

Had mine well part of it selective cut a number of years back, got a few quotes. Called a friend in the forestry service and he got me almost double the original quotes. I am looking at doing it on some more of the property in the next year or two. As far as planting.... well I have let mother nature take care of her own I am not doing it for profit if you will it is just an added bonus.

[Lumber_Jack]

Had mine well part of it selective cut a number of years back, got a few quotes. Called a friend in the forestry service and he got me almost double the original quotes. I am looking at doing it on some more of the property in the next year or two. As far as planting.... well I have let mother nature take care of her own I am not doing it for profit if you will it is just an added bonus.

Natural hardwood regeneration is far more reliable and cost effective than planting. I garantee if you cut, trees will grow back. That's the natural system at work.

Sent from my Mom's basement

[peejman]

If anyone wants black walnut seedlings, come to my house in the spring. One of my neighbors has a big tree and the critters just love to plant the acorns. I typically pull hundreds of them out of my flowerbeds.

I love the idea of 20-30 acres to play on, but I'd cut the bare minimum necessary to build what you want. Seems like there's a shortage of "mature" forest around here. Hard to find a stand of trees more than 24" in diameter.

[Lumber_Jack]

Seems like there's a shortage of "mature" forest around here. Hard to find a stand of trees more than 24" in diameter.

This is true, since about 1890 most of the southeast has been logged repeatedly.

However, remember diameter is not a direct correlation to age. Trees can be 100yrs old and 10" in diameter. Although the transverse idea is true, that trees that are 24" are probably old (unless you are in a river bottom like Mississippi Delta)

Sent from my Mom's basement

[dlm37015]

logging is like learning to play pool it cost to learn .with that said i buy and sell red gum trees .they grow in swamps

[runco]

Bookmarking to read later today.   I am updating my forestry plan for my homestead (seriously).

[gregintenn]

Logging is a dangerous and technical profession. I've known several guys who've logged all their lives and yet somehow wound up under a tree.

 

This is a job best left to professionals.

 

If you'd like to make some cash off your labor, cut up and sell firewood from the treetops the loggers leave behind.

[Mike.357]

I work with a guy who earns his living buying lumber rights on tracts of land.

 

I am not so sure you can get anyone to log 20 or 30 acres.  And the dollar amounts I have read here seem like fallacy.  Granted my knowledge is from listening to him talk about his job and about cruising woods all day long to bid on lumber rights and the dollar amounts he mentions.

 

I am not so sure lumber companies who cut trees use chainsaws much.  It is highly automated with equipment that can cut, strip and make short work of a tree.  They probably aren't interest in small tracts.

 

LJ knows what he is talking about.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Mike.357

[gomer pyle]

Logging is a dangerous and technical profession. I've known several guys who've logged all their lives and yet somehow wound up under a tree.

This is a job best left to professionals.

If you'd like to make some cash off your labor, cut up and sell firewood from the treetops the loggers leave behind.

You beat me to it. If you want a hobby and something for your kids to do outside, this would safer and more affordable(i.e. Equipment).