Makes a Difference Where You Defend Yourself

[oldogy]

So as to not hijack the current thread about the guy who non lethally defended his property in New England.

This is from the Orlando Sentinel about an elderly widower in Daytona Beach who shot and killed an intruder.

The chief of police commended the guy for doing what the court system could not do, take the guy off the streets.

oldogy

Elderly widower shoots, kills intruder Daytona: Elderly widower shoots, kills intruder during burglary in Daytona Beach - OrlandoSentinel.com

[Guest Kamikaze]

Good riddance. Bottom line, if he hadn't been breaking and entering he would not have been shot. Cause and effect in action. Maybe if breaking and entering became more risky people would quit doing it. I might not have shot through the door personally, just to be safe, but you can bet my pistol grip Mossberg 500 will be aimed center mass when it opens.

[Guest xTastyx]

Yeah I saw this on the news, I think its a risk associated with this guys chosen profession. Downside to burgling? (if that's not a word it should be) Dying in some old man's driveway from a gut shot.

[Guest BrianJ]

Yeah, I would have waited for the door to open before shooting but kudos to this guy for protecting himself.

[Guest lostpass]

I see the family is complaining that he didn't deserve it. I suppose they're right. I'm going to guess that the guy wasn't a super evil serial killer and just a thief. Is shooting someone over property worth it? Probably not.

But the guy who shot him doesn't know he is a "good" guy with drug problems or something, all he knows is that someone is breaking into his house. You might be the nicest guy in the world but if I don't know that and you're busting into my house I'll assume you are there to harm me and I will harm you first. I won't say he got what he deserved but he got what I would have given him. He had a dangerous job, I'll suppose "illegal jobs" will be on discovery next year...

[Guest kcb37]

Best to assume someone means you harm when they break in. What happens when they think you are not home and what do you know your there.

A simple theft can go real bad real quick.

Can't say I would do much different other then waiting for the door to open. But my doors stay locked unless I am in the room of said door and my wife is on her way home. Someone opens that door they mean harm to me, my wife, or my kid. If they get in my house god help them.

Not saying I will shoot anyone, but there is a line of the saftey of myself and more importantly my family.

[daddyo]

The minute someone leaves marks on the door from trying to pry it open, that's when I'm going to open fire. No judge is going to look at that and say "you had no right to defend yourself".

I'm not waiting till he gets the door open so he has a better chance at winning the contest.

[Guest airborne1525]

I see the family is complaining that he didn't deserve it. I suppose they're right. I'm going to guess that the guy wasn't a super evil serial killer and just a thief. Is shooting someone over property worth it? Probably not.

But the guy who shot him doesn't know he is a "good" guy with drug problems or something, all he knows is that someone is breaking into his house. You might be the nicest guy in the world but if I don't know that and you're busting into my house I'll assume you are there to harm me and I will harm you first. I won't say he got what he deserved but he got what I would have given him. He had a dangerous job, I'll suppose "illegal jobs" will be on discovery next year...

My property is worth your life if you decide to take it with force. Intentions (such as they were only stealing) should no longer matter in our society the moment a person willfully crosses the line of the law for the purpose of taking advantage of another's life, property, or value system.

We just had an incident in Knoxville where a veteran police officer shot a shoplifter inside the Walmart lost prevention office. Oh how his family and friends cried out claiming he was a food guy trying to turn his life around and was only stealing light bulbs and his life shouldn't have been taken over light bulbs. Yet they don't want to talk about the facts, he resisted the officers, after being tased, he still managed to pull a gun on the officer with only a few feet between them. IMO we are lucky that our city did not have to bury to of our finest.

Read the first link before looking at the second and see if you agree that the officer was lucky to go home that night.

http://m.knoxnews.com/news/2011/nov/16/knoxville-police-identify-man-killed-in-walmart/

http://www.wbir.com/news/article/199143/2/KPD-shows-video-clears-officers-in-deadly-Walmart-Magnolia-Ave-shootings

[TMF]

I see the family is complaining that he didn't deserve it. I suppose they're right. I'm going to guess that the guy wasn't a super evil serial killer and just a thief. Is shooting someone over property worth it? Probably not.

But the guy who shot him doesn't know he is a "good" guy with drug problems or something, all he knows is that someone is breaking into his house. You might be the nicest guy in the world but if I don't know that and you're busting into my house I'll assume you are there to harm me and I will harm you first. I won't say he got what he deserved but he got what I would have given him. He had a dangerous job, I'll suppose "illegal jobs" will be on discovery next year...

He got what he deserved.

I have no compassion for him at all. Normally I would at least have compassion for the family of the criminal, but since they're speaking out against the actions of a frail, elderly person who was scared and did not make the choice to be in that situation, the family deserves every bit of pain and suffering they're enduring due to the loss of their loved one. Their mourning should begin and end at the tragic loss of a family member due to that individual's choice to be an idiot. The second they speak out against the innocent involved they can pound sand. I hope only the worst for those people.

People who prey on the weak and innocent don't deserve any compassion when their actions result in their own demise.

EDIT, quote from one of the articles:

Orshoski has been charged numerous times in the past with drug possession and burglary; however his family said he never did anything that would merit being shot to death.

"He was not the scum of the earth," said Orshoski's sister Breckin Moloney. "I don't think my brother ever deserved to be shot. It's atrocious and appalling that [Robbins] gets a verbal pat on the back for this from the chief of police."

Moloney said her brother was engaged to be married and her family is shattered by his death.

The family deserves every bit of suffering coming their way. They should be apologizing for their worm-meat family member, not sticking up for him. They should be liable for the door and the cost of the bullet.

Edited January 15, 2012 by TMF 18B

[Guest Catfish36]

My property is worth your life if you decide to take it with force. Intentions (such as they were only stealing) should no longer matter in our society the moment a person willfully crosses the line of the law for the purpose of taking advantage of another's life, property, or value system.

+1..here, here.

I have said it before and I will say it again and again. Time is Money..what I have cost me a portion of my life to earn the wages to buy it..when you take my stuff, you are taking a portion of my life. Your rights end where my rights begin..as long as you are not infringing on my rights ..then you are a free man..when you decide to infringe on my rights then you lose your rights. BOOM.

But perhaps more importantly, I can not afford to wait to see if you have a weapon..it may be the last thing I see. It's easy to say, "he was just there to steal and that is not worth his life" after the fact...during the insedent the one being attacked has no idea of the person's intentions.

When LEO's pull up on a seen that a crime is in progress, they usually do so with weapons drawn. Long before they know if the criminal has a weapon or ill intent or not...but if we pull our weapon in defending ourselves and the criminal does not have one..it could be seen as "aggravated assault"???

Not sure I would have shot through the door, but I have a friend who did...long court case..but he did win .

[Fallguy]

When I first saw the thread title I thought might be talkig about where as far as car, home, street. Was going to say makes no difference (in TN) as long as your are in reasonable fear, only difference is whether the law presumes you have that fear or not.

That said...it does seem to make a big difference where you are as far as what part of the country. Remember...some states still say you must retreat, some even within your own home.

[DaveTN]

"He was not the scum of the earth," said Orshoski's sister Breckin Moloney. "I don't think my brother ever deserved to be shot. It's atrocious and appalling

that [Robbins] gets a verbal pat on the back for this from the chief of police."

Moloney said her brother was engaged to be married and her family is shattered by his death.

Boo freaking hoo.

Your brother was breaking into the home of an 82 year old senior citizen, probably because he thought the guy could not put up a fight. He was wrong and it cost him his miserable crime ridden life. Good riddance, and yes, he was the scum of the earth.

[G27]

Yup, got what he deserved, zero question.

Play stupid games...

[wjh2657]

"There are in nature neither rewards nor punishments — there are only consequences."Robert G. Ingersoll

Do not look for deeper meanings or moral justifications in the actions of men. It is the responsibility of the individual to consider all possibilities of consequences to their actions. One of the possible consequences to breaking into another's home is that you might be shot. Do not look to a deity or to man's law for answers. It is simply what it is!

Edited January 15, 2012 by wjh2657

[billyscott]

The way I look at it, it's time for the bad guys to realize that home invasion is a "crime", not a way to make a living. When they break into someone's home there's a chance the homeowner may be killed or injured. If the homeowner is armed, there's a chance the invader will be killed.

How long do you wait? Until the bad guy gets your door kicked open and draws his weapon? Or stop it as soon as soon as he gains acces to your home?

[East_TN_Patriot]

I was working as a cop in Florida when they passed the "stand your ground" law. The media, including the Orlando paper if memory serves me, talked about gun battles in the streets and people killing each other over road rage incidents. Ya know, same old typical BS. Even several of my fellow co-workers were against it. Glad that law served someone well.

[Guest lostpass]

I was working as a cop in Florida when they passed the "stand your ground" law. The media, including the Orlando paper if memory serves me, talked about gun battles in the streets and people killing each other over road rage incidents. Ya know, same old typical BS. Even several of my fellow co-workers were against it. Glad that law served someone well.

I suspect nothing has done more good for gun rights than the inaccuracy of those types of predictions. When the concealed weapon thing was first getting off the ground you heard about "the old west" in modern America (except I don't think the old west had all that many gun fights. Movies =! reality) and so forth. This never occurred.

When people realized that the streets weren't filled with gunfights and such they stopped worrying about guns so much.

Though I was a little disappointed, when someone promises live action gun fights you kinda want to see some.

[Guest lostpass]

My property is worth your life if you decide to take it with force. Intentions (such as they were only stealing) should no longer matter in our society the moment a person willfully crosses the line of the law for the purpose of taking advantage of another's life, property, or value system.

We just had an incident in Knoxville where a veteran police officer shot a shoplifter inside the Walmart lost prevention office. Oh how his family and friends cried out claiming he was a food guy trying to turn his life around and was only stealing light bulbs and his life shouldn't have been taken over light bulbs. Yet they don't want to talk about the facts, he resisted the officers, after being tased, he still managed to pull a gun on the officer with only a few feet between them. IMO we are lucky that our city did not have to bury to of our finest.

Read the first link before looking at the second and see if you agree that the officer was lucky to go home that night.

Fear of jail drove man killed by police, friends say » Knoxville News Sentinel Mobile

KPD shows video, clears officers in deadly Walmart, Magnolia Ave. shootings | wbir.com

Well, that guy got shot not because he was stealing but because he pulled out a gun.

Here's the difference: If you take a look at the list of capital crimes you won't find any property crimes in there. So stealing, by the reasoning of our justice system and by the reasoning of average people should not carry a sentence of death. Maybe the taliban would disagree.

But that guy didn't get shot for trying to steal a laptop or for trying to steal a large gold brick of gold. If the guy says he shot that guy for that he should be in jail. That guy got shot because the home owner didn't know what he was going to do. He might be there for the TV, he might be there for a ham sandwich he might be there to kill him. A relatively small crime could escalate into him killing the home owner.

I wouldn't shoot anyone over a loaf of bread... well, maybe if it was homemade....Sorry, the point being that the family has insight to the guy and they think he wouldn't actually hurt anyone. Fine, they're right, the whole thing is a tragedy. On the other hand I have no personal relationship with Ronald McDonald and if that guy is trying to bust open my door guess who gets the bullet? Mayor McCheese might opine that Ron was a good guy and just after a head of lettuce I just bought but unless Ron had previously convinced me he was just there to steal my lettuce he's going to get physically harmed. And keep being physically harmed until that quarter pounder cop shows up or he quits.

It isn't that I hate the guy, it isn't that I care about my stuff that much, it is that once you've invaded (or attempted to invade) my house I don't know what might happen. So I'll error on the side of caution.

[TMF]

I wouldn't shoot anyone over a loaf of bread... well, maybe if it was homemade....Sorry, the point being that the family has insight to the guy and they think he wouldn't actually hurt anyone. Fine, they're right, the whole thing is a tragedy. On the other hand I have no personal relationship with Ronald McDonald and if that guy is trying to bust open my door guess who gets the bullet? Mayor McCheese might opine that Ron was a good guy and just after a head of lettuce I just bought but unless Ron had previously convinced me he was just there to steal my lettuce he's going to get physically harmed. And keep being physically harmed until that quarter pounder cop shows up or he quits.

In that event Mayor McCheese should keep his mouth shut, acknowledge that Ron is responsible for the events that transpired and empathize with the true victim of the case.

I don't condone killing someone over property, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stand by and be victimized. I will defend my family/property/self, and, if that results in a confrontation where I have to shoot the person, then they deserve it and the family of the CRIMINAL should keep their f'ing mouths shut about it.

Kinda like if some idiot decides he's gonna go live with the grizzly bears... he MAY not deserve to be sentenced to death by bear mauling, but if the direct result of his hippie adventure into the wild is that he gets mauled to death and becomes bear poop then he deserved exactly what he got, and shouldn't be treated as an avoidable tradgedy by family members on the part of the bear. The family shouldn't speak ill of the bear or call for the bear's destruction. In fact, the bear should be given a freaking medal.

[Guest Catfish36]

So let's say, just for the sake of argument, that some guy twice my size breaks into my home or car and is stealing and I catch him red handed. He imediatly informs me that he does not have a weapon and he has no intention of harming me..he only needs to steal. Since we only draw when we intend to shoot, some would say my use of a deadly weapon at all is undeserved for the crime. My question: What should i do?? Help him carry my valuables to his vehicle???

Just a thought..

Edited January 16, 2012 by Catfish36

[Guest airborne1525]

Have we as a country not been engaged in more wars over property and materials than we have for lives? But on the home front we are suppose to uphold a different value system?? ironic, don't you think?

[Guest airborne1525]

So let's say, just for the sake of argument, that some guy twice my size breaks into my home or car and is stealing and I catch him red handed. He imediatly informs me that he does not have a weapon and he has no intention of harming me..he only needs to steal. Since we only draw when we intend to shoot, some would say my use of a deadly weapon at all is undeserved for the crime. My question: What should i do?? Help him carry my valuables to his vehicle???

Just a thought..

IMO, the story of the lone survivor is the one that holds up. Guess I would have to stand by not being able to hear him announce his "peaceful" intentions over the loud volume of my gunshots ringing out inside my small house...

[~48_South~]

So let's say, just for the sake of argument, that some guy twice my size breaks into my home or car and is stealing and I catch him red handed. He imediatly informs me that he does not have a weapon and he has no intention of harming me..he only needs to steal. Since we only draw when we intend to shoot, some would say my use of a deadly weapon at all is undeserved for the crime. My question: What should i do?? Help him carry my valuables to his vehicle???

Just a thought..

I would suggest you not tell the cops that he informed you he was unarmed and he stated that he had no intentions on harming you if you did infact ever end up shooting someone under those circumstances. From my understanding of the law,yes you should let him go,simply call the cops and hope they can catch him. I personally would probably drop him (Non Vital) but in doing so I would expect to be arrested and probably sued by the person who was commiting the crime. The guy being twice my size would have me on edge even if I knew he wasnt armed due to me being afraid he would try and get my weapon from me,so if he did anything other than lay flat or possibly haul ass the other way he got shot.

Do I feel bad the guy got shot breaking into someones house...NO, I personally feel that anyone intruding someones place of residence should be free target practice for the homeowner, and there are several reasons I feel that way. For starters if someone breaks into your house knowing there is a strong possibility someone is home such as cars in the driveway a light on in the kitchen or something like that then I feel the intruder is more dangerous and probably has the mind set of harming you rather than surrendering should a conflict occur, also even if a person broke in and had no intentions of hurting anyone and lets say they thought nobody was home while they were doing it but all of a sudden you pop out of nowhere, odds are that moment where you confront each other the intruder will be just as terrified as you,now the typical person will always try and escape danger rather than confront it, but if the route of their escape becomes obstructed during all that then the situation gets to a whole different level of serious imo. Like I said a criminal could have no intentions of harming you,but when he feels his life is at risk and there is no way to escape I imagine most will do whatever they can to stay alive or escape,including using violent force against you the homeowner.

The only case of home defense that I felt was wrong is where the guy calls 911 because his neighbors house had been broke into, the operator instructs the guy to not go outside more than once all while he is telling the Operator he is about to kill the criminals, he runs outside and shoots them both in the back with a shotgun anyways,and is said to be a hero(even though both men were unarmed and shot in the back in broad daylight). Now all of that being said the part that bothers me is he was instructed 14 times by dispatch NOT TO GO OUTSIDE and confront the criminals, he does so anyways kills them both and then runs back in saying he didnt have a choice when it came to shooting them.

[TMF]

So let's say, just for the sake of argument, that some guy twice my size breaks into my home or car and is stealing and I catch him red handed. He imediatly informs me that he does not have a weapon and he has no intention of harming me..he only needs to steal. Since we only draw when we intend to shoot, some would say my use of a deadly weapon at all is undeserved for the crime. My question: What should i do?? Help him carry my valuables to his vehicle???

Just a thought..

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in unrealistic hypotheticals. First off, someone who is caught in the act of doing something illegal is going to flight/fight/submit. They aren't likely to carry on a conversation with you.

I can tell you from personal experience that when you have a weapon pointed at someone they aren't going to be calm/rational or capable of conversation. They are going to fight/flight/submit. If I happen to catch someone stealing from my property the gun is coming out; I don't have time to carry on conversations with a criminal in the acto to determine if they are armed, I'm going to make the assumption they are. It is up to him whether or not my gun starts talking.

Now, with the unrealistic hypothetical you pose, he is most likely going to flee. Not just because you are armed, but because he is caught and should assume the police are on their way. If he runs, so be it; ya can't shoot him. If he decides to attack you it is up to you to use your best judgement of what to do next, which at this point if you haven't made the shift in logic to understand your life is in danger then you will right before you die.

[Guest Catfish36]

I have posted this on another thread before, but there is a reason why I am so edgy about this subject. I live in a quite, middle-class neighborhood in the county, and there have been a string of robberies in the past few months here. Our cars were broken into. and weeks later other items were stolen from outside my home. My neighbor across the street is a woman who lives alone and her house was broken into in broad daylight and everything was taken while we were all at work trying to provide for ourselves and be good american law abiding citizens. 2 weeks later she had roofing material stolen from her yard before her roofers could get there to do the job. While the LEO's, try to say "all the right things to make us feel better"..basically they are saying that there is not much they can do. Quite frankly we are TIRED Of IT! TIRED of the law being slanted to protect the CRIMINAL! Being a CRIMINAl is a mind set..it is a way of thinking..regardless of the crime...It tells us who this person really is...They will do what they want to get what they want regardless of how it effects other people. Therefore when they get away with one crime ..it will only encourage their behavior to commit another crime..most likely a worse and more daring one.

I am not a paranoid person, nor am I a vigilante. But to be honest, I am on this computer right now because I have been up since 4:20 this morning when I heard a car honk outside...got up..grabbed my glock..and headed to the window to see a car outside my neighbors house..(the same neighbor that got robbed). I watched the car for a good 15 minutes until I saw her come out of the house and things seemed ok. But after that I was awake..and its time for work now..haha

Again I am not paranoid, but I want to be like Airborne in Walmart thread and stay aware of my surroundings. We need to look out for ourselves and each other. And the law needs to be created by THE PEOPLE (law abiding citizens), enforced by THE PEOPLE, and there to protect THE PEOPLE. And I am thankful for all of our men and women who serve as LEO's, but they need to remember just that..their job is to PROTECT and SERVE THE PEOPLE. They are not the authority..the PEOPLE are soverign..they are the servants.

Ok..sorry for the long rant..."I am the great and powerful OZ....uh..pay on attention to the man behind the curtain"