Background check vs. gun registration

[littlerivermike]

Not sure if this is the right spot....but here is the question..........

Over the past 20+ years I have purchased many guns, mostly in TN. Since the start of background checks....when was that?......does that mean that the government has or can create, a specific list of the exact guns I have purchased?

If so.....is there any practical difference between background checks and "registration" of each gun?

[peejman]

To my knowledge, the background check doesn't include the s/n of the firearm. Only the FFL has that information, and they're not required to retain it for an extended period of time.

[bubbadavis]

FFLs are required to keep 4473s indefinitely (edit: 20 years - thanks for the update OhShoot). The 4473 has the firearm serial number on it. When they close the shop, the forms go to the BATFE.

The biggest difference in the 4473/background check and registration is that with registration the government could easily determine all the guns you own - probably with a simple database query.

With the current model, if a gun is involved in a crime (and recovered), the government must go to the manufacturer to see which distributor received it, then go to the distributor to see which dealer received it, and then go to the dealer to see who purchased it. Not only that, but the dealer can keep their 4473s filed in a number of ways (including chronologically). It a laborious process to trace a gun.

Edited January 13, 2012 by bubbadavis

[Guest vthokies03]

The biggest difference in the 4473/background check and registration is that with registration the government could easily determine all the guns you own - probably with a simple database query.

With the current model, if a gun is involved in a crime (and recovered), the government must go to the manufacturer to see which distributor received it, then go to the distributor to see which dealer received it, and then go to the dealer to see who purchased it. Not only that, but the dealer can keep their 4473s filed in a number of ways (including chronologically). It a laborious process to trace a gun.

What he said, except with keeping files on computers. The ATF can access some files that are stored on computers if they have access.

[bubbadavis]

What he said, except with keeping files on computers. The ATF can access some files that are stored on computers if they have access.

True but many FFLs still use the paper 4473. Even then, I don't know if the ATF has direct access to the FFLs computer files. They might still have to contact the FFL for information - but it would be much quicker to retrieve it from a computerized system than a filing cabinet full of paper!

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Not sure if this is the right spot....but here is the question..........

Over the past 20+ years I have purchased many guns, mostly in TN. Since the start of background checks....when was that?......does that mean that the government has or can create, a specific list of the exact guns I have purchased?

If so.....is there any practical difference between background checks and "registration" of each gun?

Only those guns purchased through an FFL holder. Any gun you bought or sold to or from an individual wouldn't

be on their list. They could eventually compile a partial list, but that doesn't prove the whereabouts of those

guns at a future date. Registration of something like you mean would mean you would have to show where the

item went after you disposed of it. Accountability.

Similar to, but not quite registration. There is already a National Firearms Registry for certain types of weapons,

like machine guns, silencers, etc., that does have the accountability there.

[littlerivermike]

So when my friend brags that the government doesn't know if or how many guns he has (because they have all been "private" sell/ purchases)..... Can I say the same thing....even though all my purchases ( since '98) have involved the required background checks?

[Guest bkelm18]

So when my friend brags that the government doesn't know if or how many guns he has (because they have all been "private" sell/ purchases)..... Can I say the same thing....even though all my purchases ( since '98) have involved the required background checks?

The gov't doesn't know what guns you have. Only the FFLs do because they keep the 4473s. The gov't is too inept to compile a registry of firearms in secret.

[Caster]

What difference does it make if the feds know you have a gun?

Do people really sit around in the dark stroking the stock of their gunshow bought AK thinking, They don't know about the precious...my precious.

My God, no wonder the term "gun nut" is a negative connotation. We got a bunch 'tards acting like Sméagol.

[Guest BungieCord]

They're required to purge all information in conjunction with your background check within 24 hours. To track the gun in Tennessee, the feds have to follow the serial number from the wholesaler to the FFL and then physically examine the hard copy of the 4473.

EDIT:

In Tennessee, they don't do NICS, they do TICS, a mirror of the NICS database maintained by the TBI. The feds aren't involved in the transaction.

Edited January 12, 2012 by BungieCord

[shaftbass]

What difference does it make if the feds know you have a gun?

Do people really sit around in the dark stroking the stock of their gunshow bought AK thinking, They don't know about the precious...my precious.

My God, no wonder the term "gun nut" is a negative connotation. We got a bunch 'tards acting like Sméagol.

Yes. Unfortunately, they do.

[littlerivermike]

Wasn't intending to rub anyone's fur the wrong way.....just a citizen curious about what information my government has and what it doesn't have.

[Caster]

Wasn't intending to rub anyone's fur the wrong way.....just a citizen curious about what information my government has and what it doesn't have.

I don't think you did.

[DaveTN]

So when my friend brags that the government doesn't know if or how many guns he has (because they have all been "private" sell/ purchases)..... Can I say the same thing....even though all my purchases ( since '98) have involved the required background checks?

If your friend thinks "the government" cares how many guns either of you have, it’s probably not going to be a productive conversation; so use short words.

[Guest Skeeter]

EDIT:

In Tennessee, they don't do NICS, they do TICS, a mirror of the NICS database maintained by the TBI. The feds aren't involved in the transaction.

.

Close but not Quite

TICS submits the 4473 information to NICS data bases checking the Purchaser as well as The Gun for any issues.

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[Oh Shoot]

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Close but not Quite

TICS submits the 4473 information to NICS data bases checking the Purchaser as well as The Gun for any issues.

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Yeah, various disinformation in the thread.

TICS is just a shell over NICS, so they can charge 10 clams. Of course the Fed data bases are run.

FFLs must keep the forms for 20 years for the transactions that resulted in sale, 5 years for the ones that were denied.

And most um...interesting, when FFL goes out of biz, the 4473's are given to the BATF. The 4473 of course, has all buyer info in there, including model and serial number of the firearm. I've never seen the "rules" on what the BATF is supposed to do or not do with the 4473s.

- OS

Edited January 13, 2012 by OhShoot

[Metalhead]

They're required to purge all information in conjunction with your background check within 24 hours.

They are, but they don't. I think it was........... mid-November? TBI was having alot of computer problems and their website was going up and down all day. I managed to log in briefly one time during the day and before the website went down agian I was able to open our transaction screen which was a list of all our background checks we had run..... in April. I got a screenshot of it somewhere around here.

[bubbadavis]

FFLs must keep the forms for 20 years for the transactions that resulted in sale, 5 years for the ones that were denied.

Thanks for the clarification OS - I was confusing the 4473s with the bound book. The bound book has to be kept indefinitely and also turned over to the BATF when the FFL goes out of business.

[Guest BungieCord]

This is one of those points often quoted but rarely documented. I stumbled across this yesterday and thought it was relevant to this thread.:

From the FBI's NICS Fact Sheet:

"Per Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 25.9((1), (2), and (3), the NICS Section must destroy all identifying information on allowed transactions prior to the start of the next NICS operational day."

[Oh Shoot]

This is one of those points often quoted but rarely documented. I stumbled across this yesterday and thought it was relevant to this thread.:

From the FBI's NICS Fact Sheet:

"Per Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 25.9((1), (2), and (3), the NICS Section must destroy all identifying information on allowed transactions prior to the start of the next NICS operational day."

Can't put my finger right on it, but I believe that has been documented to NOT have always been done, remember some hoopla or other about it.

And still can't find any info about the BATF's handling of all the 4473's and bound books for FFLs that go out of biz.

- OS

[Guest Skeeter]

This is one of those points often quoted but rarely documented. I stumbled across this yesterday and thought it was relevant to this thread.:

From the FBI's NICS Fact Sheet:

"Per Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 25.9((1), (2), and (3), the NICS Section must destroy all identifying information on allowed transactions prior to the start of the next NICS operational day."

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Yes No Records were to Be Kept ! That was the Compromise Sticking Point that Allowed The Bill to Pass.

Over the Years ( on more than One Occasion Off Site Computers Holding The Same Information For " Auditing Purposes " have been Exposed.

So lets Read This Title With lets say The States Point of " Legislative Intent ".

This Only Say's NICS Section must destroy all identifying information, Doesn't say an Auditing Entity or any other Entity ( you insert an Acronym ) cannot have , hold , use the Exact Same Information.

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* off soap box

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Edited January 21, 2012 by Skeeter
spelling

[Garufa]

Govenment runs check on computers.

In databases.

Databases are archived every night to tape, disk, mirrored servers, etc. Often miles apart in different data centers.

So they destroy these archives? Don't bet on it.