1911 in 357 Mag

[gregintenn]

The 38 Super would compare ballistacly with the 357, yet is rimless, and wouldn't suffer from the potential feeding issues.

[Jonnin]

45 corbon 165 gr, 5 inches... 1230 muzzle energy.

357 158 gr federal, 5 inches, 1370 ME

If you put the same bullet weight in them they are pretty darn close, if you throw in a +- 50 foot pounds across different brands of ammo.

10mm 165 corbon 5 inch barrel is 1260, also pretty close. A 44 mag out of a 5 inch and 165gr is also in the 1250s.

As noted many times, energy is heavily tied to velocity so comparing the heaviest slug you can find, moving at a low velocity, is not going to match up well on an energy chart. Energy is not a good way to compare calibers: one of the .22 LR rounds in a 6 inch barrel comes in at 1250 muzzle energy, is that about the same as the others?! No, it just has a very high velocity, that is all an energy comparison means.

*Data points borrowed from ballistics by the inch.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Jonnin

[Dave Shooter]

I got to play with the Coonan .357 a bit last Fall. I have a serious case of 'want'. To me a Desert Eagle feels like a brick. The Coonan feels right. It's on my list for maybe next Fall unless I see a real bargain on one.

Ballistically:

.357 Winchester 158gr JHP - 1235fps, 535 ft/lbs

.357 Winchester 125gr JHP - 1450fps, 583 ft/lbs

.45acp Winchester 230gr JHP - 880fps, 396 ft/lbs

In what way are they similar?

158 x 1235 = 195310 power factor (momentum)

125 x 1450 = 181250

230 x 880 = 202400

I'm NOT saying they're equal, just that there are multiple ways to look at things, some of which don't overvalue velocity.

[Guest Skeeter]

If .357 performance out of a 1911 Package is your interest try a 38 super loaded with 9x23 Winchester 125 JHP running 1450fps with 11 shot capacity.

Get an extra 9mm barrel and magazine for the range.

.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Skeeter
spelling

[Patton]

When I said ballisticly similar I was refering to bullet diameter and weight with consideration to velocity. If you were to be shot with one over the other would it even matter?

[Guest Scramasax]

I've been shooting an original Coonan for 20 yrs. Yes the .357 has much more power than a .45 and shoots much flatter. One of the best shooting pistols I own.

Cheers,

ts

[nightrunner]

he actually designed it for .38 super. he changed it to accomodate .45acp because thats what the military wanted to replace their .38's.

If im not badly mistaken. 38super was developed MUCH later than 1911. I believe the original cartridge for the 1911 was to be the. 38acp much different than. 38super.

[nightrunner]

I dont really see the point as 357 and 45 ballisticly are about equal.

.357mag and. 45acp are not ballistically equal as one is a medium bore medium to high velocity and the other is a large bore medium to low velocity round. However they both are generally recognized as excellent one shot stops on humans

[dlm37015]

i have a colt 1911 in 38 spl it shoots full wad cutters very accurate

[Guest lostpass]

I dont really see the point as 357 and 45 ballisticly are about equal.

Are they? I'm surprised to learn that. If I recall correctly General Patton carried a 45 and a 357 revolver. he called the 45 his "show" pistol and the 357 his "killing" pistol. My uniformed understanding has always been that the 357 is a better round for reasons I don't understand but that 45 was better because, well, auto pistol and all.

Though I suspect people worry far too much about the round and far too little about their skills. Everyone wants to buy a golf swing, everyone buys a better guitar thinking it will make them a better guitar player. I suspect the difference is more in how much you practice.

[Guest Scramasax]

I shoot he .357 mainly because it is a good cartridge that is easy to get. Fav is the .41magnum. I had ordered two of them from the original Coonam mfg. Then they went bandrupt. Before some starts the 10mm rant, yes the .41 is more powerful. So don't go there. I have a .38super, several 45acps, 9mm 1911 autos. I have no problem carrying any of them for sd. Just some cartridges have better charactoristics than others.

Cheers,

ts

[Jonnin]

Its hard but try to not confuse ballistics with effectiveness. Ballistics is the study of the round from the time it exits the muzzle to the time it stops moving. Effectiveness is not even scientific, its a bunch of voodoo because the only "testing" done that matters are actual gunfights and the data is sketchy due to privacy laws or evidence rules and other reasons. Once in a while the government allows a cadaver test but try to lay your hands on THAT data... The ballistics of the .45 in a standard 230 grain are about like a bow and arrow, and effective at about the same ranges. That is not an insult, or saying that it is not effective, its just a description of what happens when you lob a fat, heavy blob of metal at a low velocity.

[Guest Scramasax]

The last time I read a "difinitive" study on Handgun effectiveness it was a study of police reports on actuale shootings. It has been a long time ago and I believe it was (Sanow?). The 125 grn .357 was the most effective one shot stop. This was what SIG was trying to emulate whith Thier .357SIG loading from a medium auto. With the modern technology of high tech bullits shock/incapacitztion has been improved in all calibers. Still shot placement is the key.

The Coonan in .357 is a viable combat/hunting pistol for the auto fan. Mine has digested (reliably) every factory load I have shot in it, 110 to 158 grn factory ammo. I don't hunt anymore and consider it my Highway gun. I have two loads that will reliably crack and engineblock.

Sorry to continue the thread highjack. It just went from the gun to the bullit it fires.

The BHP was started by JB. Then redesigned by a commitee and finished by FN to try for a military contract, just like the 1911. Both have features that JMB did not consider needed. Of course this is not first hand knowledge, just what I have read in many written sources. The .45 acp and the 9mm were both required by the militaries that he was trying to sell to. The 38super was developed for law enforcement of the 30s to defeat the auto bodied of the time and originally marketed to law enforcemnt.

The 1911 design has been modified in a lot of ways since its inception and hopefully will continue to be.

Sorry again for the digression. Just a little frustrated on the caliber debates and opinions of what a 1911 is. The Coonan uses the basic 1911 geomitry in it's chassis and acation but is a different pistol design in other ways.

Buy one shoot it and enjoy. BTW I know of two old time "contractors" that have uused Coonans as thier primary sidearms for over 20yrs.

Also I have an excellent Kydex holst and mag carrier mad by Sharktech. Not an add just an endorsment.

Hope this wasn't too long and was colse enough to the point for the thread.

Cheers,

ts

[Patton]

I'm actually happy to hear someone admitt that the 357 mag is a better performer than a 45acp. I am by no means a 45 fan. As a matter of fact I have tried to catch on but have never been impressed, especially after catching to richochets from them. There are a lot of people that think if it's not a 45 it's not worth owning.

[ls3_kid]

I've been shooting an original Coonan for 20 yrs. Yes the .357 has much more power than a .45 and shoots much flatter. One of the best shooting pistols I own.

Cheers,

ts

Sorry but by flat are you meaning less recoil? This may be a dumb question, as I assume it would be less recoil than the .45ACP

[Caster]

Sorry but by flat are you meaning less recoil? This may be a dumb question, as I assume it would be less recoil than the .45ACP

No he means the bullet flies along a straighter trajectory which usually equates to a higher level of accuracy. .45's, while very accurate up close, tend to fall like a rock after a while. This usually doesn't mean too much except at greater than normal pistol distances where it means a great deal.

[Smith]

Sorry but by flat are you meaning less recoil? This may be a dumb question, as I assume it would be less recoil than the .45ACP

Flat = Trajectory after levaing the barrel.

[ls3_kid]

Flat = Trajectory after levaing the barrel.

Ah ok, I'm dumb. Thank you.

[Caster]

Ah ok, I'm dumb. Thank you.

No, you would have been dumb had you not asked and went on with an incorrect assumption. There can be no dumb question that cures ignorance.

[ls3_kid]

No, you would have been dumb had you not asked and went on with an incorrect assumption. There can be no dumb question that cures ignorance.

Touche, my dad really wants a fun, accurate shooting .357... with a tac rail. Looks like no rails on these (No wheel gun, this one seems as if it is really close to what he wants.

[Caster]

Touche, my dad really wants a fun, accurate shooting .357... with a tac rail. Looks like no rails on these (No wheel gun, this one seems as if it is really close to what he wants.

HEY, he can have a tactical rail on a wheel gun. S&W's M&P line:

[ls3_kid]

HEY, he can have a tactical rail on a wheel gun. S&W's M&P line:

What is that? A transformer? haha, I'm pretty sure that isn't what he's looking for. However it is neat.

[Caster]

Neat. Yeah that's one way to put it LOL

[ls3_kid]

Neat. Yeah that's one way to put it LOL

Looks like you caught my drift.

[1gewehr]

When I said ballisticly similar I was refering to bullet diameter and weight with consideration to velocity. If you were to be shot with one over the other would it even matter?

Nope, I certainly don't want to be shot with either one!

I do know that I have hunted deer with a 6" barrel .357 using 158gr JHP. It did the job very nicely out to 100 yards. I don't know that I would attempt this with a .45acp.

People have their preferences. If someone wants to be able to reliably shoot .357 mags with an automatic, now they have a decent choice. That's the great thing about a free market. Ideas come to market, and if people like it, they buy it. If they don't like it, you don't have a bureaucrat telling you that it's the ONLY choice!

You can even get a .500 S&W designed for CCW! It's certainly not MY choice. But if that's what you want, go for it!

Product: Model S&W500