Defensive pistol training questions.

[The Rabbi]

Luke.

Since the FBI stats support your argument, please cite them. I will happily recant what I said.

I do not think being in bar brawls really qualifies one for much, except possibly being a bouncer. If I decide to pursue that career I will contact you for advice.

Statistics are big pictures of reality, as opposed to individual anecdotes which are small pictures of reality.

Congratulations on your achievements in IDPA. That represents a lot of time and effort.

[The Rabbi]

Dear Rabbi

I have a million of them. Like this one? LOL

"Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician."

Mindlessly repeating slogans isn't arguing.

[saintsfanbrian]

I will say but this....

I can put a million rounds down range wrong and not do any good in a fire fight or I could put 10 rounds down range with proper training and then use dry fire practice to reinforce that training and come out the victor. Which one is the right way to do it?

Granted I think a training class that doesn't actually have you fire a gun is not worth as much as one that helps to teach you the mechanics all the way through to getting follow up shots on target.

[Guest Ramtough47]

Discussion or sharing info thru the internet is good. Arguing/ranting/chest thumbing,or whatever you call it, is useless.

IMO[and i'm nobody] all would be wise to listen to Cruel Hand Luke. I don't know him nor have i ever meet him but i know about him. I have read his post's here and on other forums and they always well written and have sound tactics and excellent instructions.

In response to what started this post i look at it like this.I belive in the my right to protect myself and mine.I take carrying a pistol[which i do every day] very seriously.In 52 yrs on this earth i have had my share of fights and such, but have never had to pull a gun on anyone[and hope that i don't have to]so i am going to seek out trainning from people who are knowledgable in that field. Cost is very important but in comparison to what you receive it is insignificant.

just my .02 worth.

[The Rabbi]

I will say but this....

I can put a million rounds down range wrong and not do any good in a fire fight or I could put 10 rounds down range with proper training and then use dry fire practice to reinforce that training and come out the victor. Which one is the right way to do it?

Granted I think a training class that doesn't actually have you fire a gun is not worth as much as one that helps to teach you the mechanics all the way through to getting follow up shots on target.

I'm not sure I understand "a million rounds downrange wrong." You either hit the target consistently or you don't. If you do, then you're doing it right. If you aren't, it's obvious.

There are definitely people who can benefit from some kind of instruction. But once the basics have been mastered it is simply practice. And a 2 day class won't give the kind of consistent practice needed. Handgun skill is a perishable commodity: if you don't practice it often it will dissipate.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

If ALL you get in your basic class is marksmanship, then I might agree.

But if all you get in your basic defensive pistol class is marksmanship training, I'd ask for my money back.....Again , fights do not look like matches.So why would you train to fight like you train to shoot a match? Why do we still assume that marksmanship alone is what wins fights? Because the majority of folks just do not test this stuff in force on force.The shooting is the LAST 10% of the problem but most think spending 90% of their time on the last 10% is good way to spend their time........seems a little backward to me.

Again, if ALL you get in a basic class is how to operate a gun, I'd want a refund.

And no one is suggesting a 2 day class (or a 5 day for that matter) with NO continuing practice is enough to maintain better than mediocre skill with a pistol. The value of the 2 day class is it covers a good amount of material that the student can take home and work on withoout costing them a week of their time or $2000 of their money.

The key to getting something out of the training is the training being realistic, relevant and RECENT. Ten billion rounds one weekend and no further practice is not nearly as effective at making you better as 50 rounds every week or even as much as dry fire every other day......

but again, this is just going to help with accuracy (the last 10%), not decision making.And bad decision making is what gets people killed or crippled. A truly good class will also help you recognize things faster and make better decisions.If it doesn't ,then all it does is teach you to shoot. The Boy Scouts can teach you how to shoot.........

Edited April 10, 2008 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Guest Grout]

How to always make good decisions and never screw up.Pal if you can come up with a "highly refined" method of doing that then you will be onto something.However fate,misfortune and just plain bad luck will always trump it.I'm not being trite just saying what I have seen and experienced.Beware,your karma can always run over your dogma.

Edited April 10, 2008 by Grout

[Guest shadow12]

Well, I think this is settled, all of the military units that I have been part of wasted all of the time and money spent on training. Why do the police spend their time and money learning how to shoot, just grab a gun and go out to defend your town/country. Training is essential, anyone ever heard the phrase "practice like you play"? If you don't train, you won't be ready to play.

As far as the round count, the US Marines spend two weeks on the rifle range in boot camp, we spent the first week with no ammo, dry firing all day for five days. Then on the seond week we actually get real ammo. Dry fire practice works, the Corps has proven it. After all, we are the worlds best marksmen.

HEHE... that last line should get something started.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

How to always make good decisions and never screw up.Pal if you can come up with a "highly refined" method of doing that then you will be onto something.However fate,misfortune and just plain bad luck will always trump it.I'm not being trite just saying what I have seen and experienced.Beware,your karma can always run over your dogma.

Who said ALWAYS? Of course luck plays a part ...both for us and them.But most people screw up because they didn't know what to look for or how to get ahead of the other guy's decision making cycle and preempt the assault. And you don't learn that stuff spending all your time shooting tight little groups at 7 yards.........

And in fact there ACTUALLY IS a highly refined method for reading the cues of impending physical assault. Southnarc did the pioneering work on it and it increases survivability exponentially....but I guess you are just not familiar with his work in that field?

The point I am making or trying to is that most people just do not know what they do not know. But once they are shown what to look for they can predict with great regularity what someone is about to do.They can then "skip ahead" and make decisions at a much faster rate than they previously could because they can see the train wreck DEVELOPING, and do not have to wait until the train hits them to realize bad things are happening. Most people are only aware AFTER the train hits them or just as it does. But if you know what to look for, you see it in plenty of time to get off the track.

[Guest Phantom6]

Who said ALWAYS? Of course luck plays a part ...both for us and them.But most people screw up because they didn't know what to look for or how to get ahead of the other guy's decision making cycle and preempt the assault. And you don't learn that stuff spending all your time shooting tight little groups at 7 yards.........

And in fact there ACTUALLY IS a highly refined method for reading the cues of impending physical assault. Southnarc did the pioneering work on it and it increases survivability exponentially....but I guess you are just not familiar with his work in that field?

The point I am making or trying to is that most people just do not know what they do not know. But once they are shown what to look for they can predict with great regularity what someone is about to do.They can then "skip ahead" and make decisions at a much faster rate than they previously could because they can see the train wreck DEVELOPING, and do not have to wait until the train hits them to realize bad things are happening. Most people are only aware AFTER the train hits them or just as it does. But if you know what to look for, you see it in plenty of time to get off the track.

Boy you said it. I was gonna say it but you said it. Understanding how to "read Turd" or read the "tells" which precede an attack can save your life and you may not even have to resort to either the threat of or the actual use of deadly force.

[Guest Grout]

Turd reading?.................... That's a class I don't think many will want to take. Luke perhaps I should have said "sometimes" instead of "always".Attacks come in all forms and styles which are not always close enough to see the attacker before hand or be able to read his movements.That is when fate,bad luck and misfortune come in.

[et45]

I get where you are coming from Grout.You cannot always pick up an "aggresive aura" or "furitive movement" prior to a surprise attack,likewise an attack from a distance.Note the number of sniper cases in the past few years as well as crowded area shootings.In a perfect scenario you would be able to see the subject preparing to attack but alas that is not always the case.Sometimes you have to pay the ferryman.

[Guest killemducks]

I appreciate this discussion. Everything I have read and believe boils down to this.

Do everything possible to avoid using your gun to kill. Be ready to kill if necessary.

So, if that is the message I have been getting, then there is more to learn than grip, aim, trigger press etc..etc...which are essential also...

Looks like to me you have two ESSENTIAL components of personal protection here. Avoidance and Deployment.

Also, I have read that during a life threatening confrontation, you will be half as good, at most, as your best day on the range. So practice is extremely important on the "deployment" side.

I know there is more to this, but this is what I have gleened so far.

killem

[Guest killemducks]

ET45 and grout,

What you say is true, but wouldn't training on these types of encounters increase your chances of survival?? You can make your own luck.

....you can train for the unexpected. Granted, if it is your time to go, it is just your time to go. You could go down fighting though.

killem

[Guest mikedwood]

I'll just chime in a bit. Interesting thread I think.

I would say a 2 day course would be better than nothing at all but, at least as far as I know there is no where local and public or (private for that matter) to my area where an average person could do much practicing of much more than target shooting.

Drawing and dry firing at the mirror is about the best I can come up with. And the point someone above made similar to "if something happens what will it be?" Face to face, one on one, 4 on 1 (that happened here recently to an unarmed citizen and it didn't go well for them, terrible) sniper fire (jez what you gonna do but grab cover if all you have is a pistol), retail or work place incident with plenty of innocents around and no clear shot, or worse think you have a clear shot.

I heard a true story about 2 ex college football players both huge, they were in Atlanta, and a small guy jumps from behind a corner with a knife and starts taunting them. They thought they were going to tear him apart until they were knocked out from behind. They never saw who knocked them out. Both robbed and both with concussions.

I would say that in most crack head wanting a quick buck situations the sound alone would scare them off. If it's an armed group they "might" try and shoot it out with you for the glory. Jealous boyfriend (or the other way around) and you probably have trouble. Someone like that VT guy and you are probably in for a shoot out.

In most real life shooting situations (like a bar or party, where rednecks who can shoot were involved and drunk, I'm form a small town) I am aware of the person shot either didn't see the gun or didn't see it for long at all.

In a blathering mood sorry, so how do you train for all that in two days.

Would a 2 day course or more and a martial arts membership where you go once a week be better? It seems the real starting point in a civilian to civilian confrontation is situational awareness.

[Guest shadow12]

Drawing and dry firing at the mirror is about the best I can come up with. And the point someone above made similar to "if something happens what will it be?" Face to face, one on one, 4 on 1 (that happened here recently to an unarmed citizen and it didn't go well for them, terrible) sniper fire (jez what you gonna do but grab cover if all you have is a pistol), retail or work place incident with plenty of innocents around and no clear shot, or worse think you have a clear shot.

I believe that you are correct about situational awareness, this goes for civvies or pros. Where did you hear about this 4 on 1 locally, stated above, just curious, I hadn't heard about it.

Sorry the dang quote thingy didn't work, so I put it in bold

[John Wall]

Since the chest thumping and belittling others has died down, I will submit that one must have the passion, the drive, the accredited (court defensible) and recent training to be more than one who takes your money and shows you how to load your gun and shoot at paper.

Luke is right about classes. Beginner classes do not teach a student to be proficient. They teach a student precision trigger techniqes and sight picture. Also how to safely upload, download, reload, handle and discharge their firearm, reduce stoppages, access from and recover to the holster, and clean their firearm without shooting themselves or others.

A poor sight picture with correct trigger technique will get a hit near the point of aim. A flawless sight picture with a horrid jerk of a trigger pull will likely result in a miss.

Often, beginners will discover they have purchased a firearm that is totally unsuitable for their level of grip strength, willingness to train, and motivation. A good trainer will know before the student when this happens. Some firearms are simply unsuitable for any defensive chores.

Most beginners do not have the arm and grip strength to fire hundreds of rounds. Many can barely fire the required 50 rounds for their Carry Permit.

High round count classes are to make a proficient person smoother and more proficient.

Folks wanting more, after they have their permit, should fire, perhaps 200 rounds in a class. They should know what is to be expected of them before the class.

Advanced classes for Operators should fire 4-500 rounds daily, if a two day class. These folks should know up front and be physically and mentally prepared to perform the needed shooting, moving and training.

The Instructor should be physically and mentally prepared to demonstrate and explain techniques being trained, to anwer questions and educate their students.

[Guest mikedwood]

Where did you hear about this 4 on 1 locally, stated above, just curious, I hadn't heard about it.

Well it was a bit of assumption on my part but I was referring to the Christian/Newsum murders. It sounded to me like it was about 4 or 5 on 2 actually. I'd say the truth will never be known as a court of law is the last place I'd look for truth.

If one of them had been carrying I know that situation would have turned out different.

That was thug mentality. The thug mentality is a predator mentality. Kind of like sharks and lions, they pick on the weak (most sharks won't attack if they think you see them, there is an odd one here and there or maybe a curious one, but they want easy prey, lions generally go for the slow and the weak also, they want to expend as little energy as possible. Both know if they get hurt in the course of an attack they won't live long). If they know or think you might have the upper hand they will not attack, or avert course quickly, they know there is plenty more prey and search for the easiest. If things get rough they will flee, if things go their way they will take it to the limit and in the above case beyond, way beyond.

Example: I use to work on Magnolia and one day leaving work I was blocked in by traffic and a hooker and two guys approached my car and were trying to run a scam on me or something. The younger one started yelling at me wanting me to get out of the car and fight. I didn't have a gun, but it was getting nerve racking. So I decided to reach under my seat real calmly looking him right in the eyes. They just left, poof. I didn't have a gun under the seat but they thought I did., or they were bored with the scam? You decide.

Then there was that guy beating on my door at 3 am demanding in and I told him I had a 12 ga on the other side of the door and he left. No idea who he was. I would suggest a photocell light for all entry ways of any home. I got one soon after that one. I think if I had had an automatic light come on he would have picked another door. I had to flip the switch so he knew I was there.

Neither of those escalated to anything more than leaving me with wonder of what if I had done something stupid, and trying to figure out how to do things more prudently. Use of any force on my part would not have been justified at the time either confrontation ended. If I had got out of the car or opened the door, that could have been very bad for one of us. I don't know which one (probably me)

Now that is a different animal than someone who is either mad and blinded by rage or someone like a terrorist who doesn't mind dying, even relishes the idea. Totally different situations,

Nothing short of the under side of heck will get you out of the last two.

Blathering again sorry, I really like this board.

[John Wall]

Dear Mike

You saw, you learned, and you walked away from these events.

The first is the reason I tell my students that unless you are on the job, do NOT get involved. Be a good witness.

Getting involved in a chase by plainclothes folks is extremely hazardous for all involved. Many cops working undercover or getting involved off duty are injured or killed by uniformed officers responding to this incident. Quick energetic moves, and failure to IMMEDIATELY obey orders from a cop when you are armed will get you SHOT.

If you see a guy and gal fighting, and the gal is losing, it is nature to step in. You must realize there is every chance if you engage the guy to stop beating on the gal, you will have BOTH of them to contend with!

If she cries for help, that is a different matter, but you should still be prapared to defend yourself from an attack by the gal. If a domestic situation, there is NO rational action taking place. If an attack on an uninvolved bystander, you are putting yourself in harm's way.

If it does not directly involve you, a loved one, a child, or an obviously uninvolved bystander, let it go, unless you are on the job.

Even then, be prepared to deal with an escalation of resistance and your response to it.

At home, in your castle, you should have a defensive tool at hand. I prefer a firearm over anything else to defend myself in my home, simply because State law is on my side. One does not want to bring a baseball bat to a gunfight in his castle.