Give me a 9mm recipe

[SHARPPOINT]

Looking for as little muzzel flip as possible... 147gr. 115gr.?? Also what brand of powder? Thanks for your help.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Maybe the muzzle flip is most dependent on the pistol design? Some seem less likely to flip. It is said that designs which place the bore axis as low as possible are less likely to flip.

I used to make very soft-shooting reloads which seemed quite accurate, but lately changed to hotter loads because the soft loads would not operate a couple of pistols I got.

Haven't experimented a whole bunch. My light loads used 124gn Rainier hollow point copper-plated bullets with an OAL of 1.12", using 4.2 or 4.3 gn W231 powder. Maybe in some pistols the powder could even be lighter, though that load was too weak to operate some stiffer-slide pistols. You have to experiment and get the power up at least high enough to avoid stovepipes and lock-back the slide on an empty mag.

I liked the cheap HP bullets solely because they punched more-visible round holes in paper and didn't cost any more than round nose at the time. Other than that, round nose would have been fine.

Long ago had read that 124 gn bullets are a "sweet spot" for 9mm performance. Out of habit, never tried reloading anything else, though I've reloaded a few different brands of 124 gn bullets.

From studying various manufacturer load data, it looks like 115 gn bullets offer a wider choice of powders and velocities that will work, assuming that the load is made at least stiff enough to operate whatever pistol you have. There appear to be fewer powders and load ranges that work well with 124 gn, and even fewer at 147 gn. But I could be drawing the wrong conclusion.

It just seems that if as wide a variety of powders would be appropriate for 147 gn as for 115 gn, then factory published data would show a wider variety of powders on the heavier bullet loads?

[Guest gw2and4]

Out of what weapon?

Sent from my iPhone 4

[LagerHead]

My current load for my XDm 5.25 is 147gn Zero JHP, with 3.1gn of Vihta Vouri N320 powder. It's pretty light and operates both my XDm and XD9SC without issue (unless the wife is shooting the XD9SC). OAL is 1.142" on them.

[SHARPPOINT]

Sorry, Gov. size 1911

[Guest Lester Weevils]

My Taurus 9mm 1911 feels like it has more barrel flip than any of my other 9mm pistols. But the recoil spring may be slightly too stiff as well. Dunno if that affects it.

[dlm37015]

tite group

[Jonnin]

I use a 380 bullet at high velocity, hot enough to cycle the gun but not stout loads. But any 9mm capable of running the action is going to produce a pretty good jerk in a small or lightweight pistol, no matter what you do. If you want to reduce recoil, pull out your recoil spring and put in a very light one and THEN build up a light load for the gun. Remember that using a weak spring and light load is not legal in some competitions, such as IDPA, but it can turn a bad recoil gun into a better target pistol for plinkery.

[BigK]

My IDPA gun is a full size CZ 75 Shadow, which is very similar in size/weight/length to yours. Fast follow-up shots are crucial, so muzzle flip is the enemy.

I worked up a load with 124 gr Berry's plated RN over 3.9 to 4.0 gr of Bullseye with a OAL of 1.12. I run a reduced power recoil spring or I wouldn't be able to go this low and still cycle the action.

That being said, what load works optimally in one gun, may not be so good in another. The most subtle differences will affect accuracy and performance to some degree. The key is to find the OAL that your gun cycles the best w/out jamming. From there, pick a bullet you like and starting working up a load from the mfg load data.

I highly recommend Berry's new plated 124 gr HBRN. It allows you to seat the bullet deeper w/ the same OAL. That lets you use less powder, since there's less volume inside the case. With a low volume powder like Bullseye, I can get down to as low as 3.4 gr of powder before I start to see jamming (near the end of a practice session when the gunk has built up inside the gun).

Just be careful about going below the minimum recommendations and don't fire rapdly while working on the load. I gotta squib in my Glock once this way. I had been shooting the same ammo all day in other guns. The 4th round through the Glock got stuck about 2" from the muzzle. Had I not noticed the difference in the way the gun fired, I might have gone KABOOM.

[McAllyn]

Zero 125gn JHP, 4.1 VV N320, CCI 500 primer, Range pickup brass. OAL 1.144"

Tested reliable and comfortable in a Glock 34, CZ SP01, Beretta 92, XD9 Tac, Glock 26, and Colt Defender.

Mac

Edited January 4, 2012 by McAllyn
I R math-tard

[1gewehr]

Lighter bullets typically produce less muzzle rise (flip). Try some 115gr bullets with 4gr of W231. That should be enough powder to work reliably. If it isn't, add to the load gradually until you get reliable performance in your pistol. Lighter springs will also allow reliable use of less powder with light bullets.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I use a 380 bullet at high velocity, hot enough to cycle the gun but not stout loads. But any 9mm capable of running the action is going to produce a pretty good jerk in a small or lightweight pistol, no matter what you do. If you want to reduce recoil, pull out your recoil spring and put in a very light one and THEN build up a light load for the gun. Remember that using a weak spring and light load is not legal in some competitions, such as IDPA, but it can turn a bad recoil gun into a better target pistol for plinkery.

Hi Jonnin

I like your term "plinkery".

Recoil seems pretty tame on 9mm, though some of mine flip more than others.

Strangely, the very light Kahr P9 with 3.6" barrel and "near full size grip" has very tame recoil even on defense rounds, and hardly any flip. Perhaps the smaller 3" barrel Kahrs with short grips would be more difficult to hang onto, never shot one. It has been said that the Kahrs have the barrel mounted pretty low which accounts for its minimal tendency to flip.

Just sayin, some light guns seem pretty tame.

The Kahr fits good in the hand. I can't do good target shooting with the Kahr trigger though it is good enough and safe enough for carry and close self-defense. If Kahr would ever make "exactly the same thing" with a good single action trigger and thumb safety, or double/single with a trigger at least as good as a Beretta 92, then that would be a very fun range gun.

[Jonnin]

Lighter bullets typically produce less muzzle rise (flip). Try some 115gr bullets with 4gr of W231. That should be enough powder to work reliably. If it isn't, add to the load gradually until you get reliable performance in your pistol. Lighter springs will also allow reliable use of less powder with light bullets.

That is why I mentioned the 380 bullets. I am still not convinced this is true from physics, but lots of folks say the recoil FEELS less with light slugs. For what its worth I am still tweaking my loads for accuracy working in the neighborhood of 6-7 grains of accurate #5 on the MBC lead bullet which is 95 grains. I still say, though, if you push them with the same force you get the same recoil, even if you used a 200 grain fat boy; I use the 380s for a different reason (they feed better in a couple of european guns).

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Have you ever read any opinion about how much "rocket" effect one gets from the gasses exiting the barrel? Wonder if any significant component of pistol recoil is attributable to the action-reaction of the gas itself?

I suppose the gas-jet thrust would have to be non-insignificant, otherwise compensators would not have enough power to do their job?

Found this thread with a couple of good messages on the topic--

link-- Handgun recoil, a question... - THR

A good comment from the thread--

The mass of the powder, even though burning and being converted into gas, does add to the forward moving mass, and every formula on recoil takes that into consideration. It is not too significant in many handguns; in a .45 ACP pistol, firing a bullet of 230 grains, the 5-7 grains of the powder charge is not too significant as it is 1/32 of the bullet mass. But in a .30-'06, firing a 150 grain bullet, the 50 grain powder charge is 1/3 the bullet mass, and must be added to the recoil formula.

Though the gas may not weigh as much as the bullet, possibly the thrust from the gas is "accentuated" because the gas has a higher jet velocity than the bullet, after the bullet has exited the barrel? Am only guessing. Dunno the jet velocity of the gas immediately after the bullet exits.

Heavy bullets USUALLY use slower powders than light bullets, at least in 9mm. Fast powders tend to generate excessive pressure with a heavy 9mm bullet, even with modest muzzle energy.

In addition to the lower available mass of moving gas from a fast-burning powder, I wonder if a fast powder gets a light bullet moving very early after ignition, so that by the time the bullet has exited the barrel, there is not as much gas pressure behind the bullet? Therefore, with a fast powder and light bullet, perhaps not only would there be less gas reaction mass, but possibly the gas would have lower velocity?

On the other hand, a slow powder with a heavy bullet would likely not only have more gas reaction mass, but possibly the powder would still be burning as the bullet exits the barrel, yielding significantly higher jet velocity?

OK, found another thread which presents the same theory (though that doesn't guarantee that the theory is correct or a significant factor in felt recoil or muzzle flip)--

link-- .45 ACP and Pressures [Archive] - Oklahoma Shooters

It's all about impulse. Impulse is defined as the integeral of the force vector from a time 1 to another time 2. With a fast powder you get a spike of pressure which acts on the surface area of the back of the bullet (force) for a short time. With a slower powder you get a smaller force for a longer amount of time. If a fast powder and a slow powder are used to drive the same bullet to the same velocity the impulses will be equal in both cases, but the time windows will be different. The slower powder will peak the pressure more near the muzzle, this high pressure gas can jet out after the bullet increasing felt recoil with Newton's third law similar to rocket engines. If this is the case the same energy was delivered to the bullet, but there is more energy left in the form of the jet of gas causing more perceived recoil. As you know, the slower powders are used in compensated guns to be able to harness this gas and limit muzzle flip.

I believe the slower powders are used to achieve higher velocity because the peak pressure can be equal to the faster powders, but for a longer duration thus a higher impulse and a higher velocity.

Maybe a fast powder like Clays pushing a 90 gn bullet would be worthy of experiment for lowest recoil, if the gas mass and velocity is a significant factor?

Edited January 4, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Assuming that the gas jet actually is a significant contributor to pistol recoil, folks previous recommendations of Bullseye, Titegroup and N320 seem to agree with the theory? Those are all faster or equal to Clays, all of which are faster than W231, which is not a slow powder.

[deerslayer]

Precision Delta 147 FMJ

3.2 grains of Titegroup

1.155" OAL

10-12 pound recoil spring

Trust me.

[MarkInNashville]

Warning: topic shift!

... extra stuff removed....

using 4.2 or 4.3 gn W231 powder.

Does 231 leave much resdue on the muzzle or on the fired brass? If so is it black or light gray in color?

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Warning: topic shift!

Does 231 leave much resdue on the muzzle or on the fired brass? If so is it black or light gray in color?

Hi Mark

I switched to Ramshot Sillhouette a couple of years ago to get more velocity out of 9mm 124 gn bullets. Used up the last of the W231 reloads over a year ago. As best I recall the W231 did not seem dirty. It was at least as clean as Wallyworld Federal or Winchester practice ammo. Maybe cleaner or maybe dirtier, but I don't recall it a chore cleaning up after W231. Tumbling W231 brass for a couple hours in walnut would be clean enough, but rarely bright shiny clean inside. I don't recall it leaving unusual amounts of burned gunk in the cases.

W231 is good for a wider range of velocities at 9mm 115 gn or lighter bullets, and I was happy with the 124 gn light target loads, but it is not recommended for hot 124 gn loads.

Think I recall reading internet advice that if a load of W231 is extremely light, then it may not fully combust and might leave residue. Which perhaps would be more likely in very light revolver loads?

Lots of people use W231 for .45 auto loads. Seems odd that W231 is borderline risky for hot 9mm 124 gn or 147 gn, but on the other hand it apparently works good to push 230 gn .45 bullets! Never loaded .45. W231 also seems common for light target .38 and works good on .380 auto. I'm ignorant having used very few powders and calibers. Maybe every other powder is better/cleaner than W231 for all I know.

I still have a pound and a half of W231. Was planning to use it up on Rainier practice rounds over the holidays, but it just so happened that the weight of Sillhouette for a decently toasty 124 gn XTP HP load is accidentally the same weight needed for a middlin hot Rainier 124 gn round-nose load, so was lazy and kept using Sillhouette when switching to the Rainier bullets. Only had to change the OAL and was good to go.

After I use up the Ramshot Silhouette will probably switch over to W231 and use it up. Ramshot ZIP is very similar but not identical to W231. Had got a 4 pound jug of ZIP when W231 was hard to find. Haven't cracked it open yet. Some folks really like ZIP.

Some published loads for 124gn 9mm have a max load of 4.4 gn W231. Sierra 125 gn FMJ lists a max 4.8 gn W231 in Winchester loading data. My 4.3 gn loads pushing Rainier 124 gn worked good but were mild. Maybe somebody could really push it, but I'm reluctant to go past a published max.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[Jonnin]

All that is probably spot on Lester. When I say it is the same I meant using the same type of powder (with different amounts of it but that effect is less than a totally different type). I am cheap and only keep 3 or 4 types of powder on hand, middle of the road stuff that works in nearly any caliber or setup. Changing the burn rates or other stuff changes the physics as that reference noted. Give it a try, put super hot stuff behind that light slug to see if it does the job.... also a side effect is hot powder is a lower mass (3 grains vs 7 or so) which has a small effect as well, also noted. All around that may be the way to make a light legal load, though with a spring change it could be dropped down to 380 levels which is going to be close to the weakest you can make a 9 without messing up its trajectory.

[Raoul]

Looking for as little muzzel flip as possible... 147gr. 115gr.?? Also what brand of powder? Thanks for your help.

For an economical load try 147gr lead with 3.8gr of Green Dot.

[SHARPPOINT]

DeerSlayer, What is the fps?? Will it make power factor?

[deerslayer]

DeerSlayer, What is the fps?? Will it make power factor?

890-900 fps in my Glock 34 and 1.135 OAL. I had to bump it up to 3.5 to get a consistent 880 or so from my STI Trojan, but I also lengthened it to 1.155. Same load in the Glock goes ~930. My experience is that 9mm OAL does not make much difference on the chronograph (within reason). You need 851 with a 147 to make minor pf. The 3.2/1.155 OAL laod should be at or close to pf in your gun. You'll want to load them long in your 1911.

Edited January 7, 2012 by deerslayer

[SonnyCrockett]

my every day 9MM load is

124G Berrys Bullets,Range Brass,PowerPistol and CCI primers

1.145 OAL. 5.2 Grains of PP - its light on recoil and super clean

I have tried lighter and heavier loads and this one seems perfect for all my Nines