Tennessean writing about CCW reciprocity laws

[Guest brianhaas]

Hello all, hope everyone had a great holiday.

I'm going to be writing a story based on the Tennessee woman who was arrested when she tried to check her handgun to view the 9/11 memorial in New York City. The full story is here: Tennessee gun owner arrested at 9/11 Memorial in New York for gun possession - NYPOST.com

It's a pretty interesting story to say the least, particularly since it appears the woman was simply trying to do the right thing.

In any event, was interested in seeing if anyone wanted to comment for my story (I'd need name and city of residence).

I'm particularly interested to see if anyone here has run into reciprocity issues in their travels. And generally interested in your thoughts on this.

I know that there have been efforts to have nation-wide reciprocity, but that obviously isn't in place yet.

You guys can email me at bhaas@tennessean.com or call me at 615-726-8968. Or you can leave your response on here, so long as you leave your full name and city.

Thanks all.

Brian Haas

The Tennessean

[mikegideon]

Hi Brian,

The first "right thing" she should have done was to check the laws in NY. NYC is downright hostile toward handguns, and that's no secret.

Reciprocity is an interesting topic. In this case, she simply didn't do her homework.

[Mike.357]

What bothers me is someone having a HCP but not being responsible enough to know that you can't take a handgun into nyc.

what else has she done that was illegal with a gun?

[gregintenn]

Scrapping CCW laws, and allowing law abiding citizens to freely exercise their 2nd ammendment rights would prevent such errors. As it stands today, a legal scholar who specializes in gun law would have trouble knowing and interpreting all the nuances of carry laws in 50 different states, not to mention staying abreast of the yearly changes in each state.

Having said that, I don't believe ignorance is a valid excuse for violating the law, and I do not defend the woman's actions.

Greg Herbert

Lafayette, Tennessee

Edited December 29, 2011 by gregintenn

[VolunteerGuns]

Mikegideon is spot on about this.

Before I travel out of state I ALWAYS check the laws (handgunlaw.us, etc.) As a HCP holder I feel that is a part of my responsibility as an armed citizen to attempt to stay on top of the laws and regulations that affect me while carrying my handgun.

She should have taken the time to check before making the journey with her weapon. All that said, IMO it is sad that the 2A is valid in certain places, while others are allowed to "opt out" of a constitutional amendment.

I wish her the best in her tough journey ahead.

A. Hunter

Cookeville

Edited December 29, 2011 by adamween

[Guest brianhaas]

Great points by all. Any of you gentlemen comfortable with me using your comments in my story?

[Lumber_Jack]

I travel extensively throughout the south east for work. Although most states are reciprocal, I still have to keep up with the laws in each state.

For example in North Carolina your required to notify police of being armed during routine traffic stops. In Georgia you cannot carry in a place of worship. In Florida you can carry in restaurants that serve alcohol, but you are not allowed to sit in the specific "bar" area of said restaurant. There are also different stipulations on open carry vs concealed carry from state to state.

There are resources out there that simplify the laws for laypersons to understand. You just have to take the initiative to read them.

(posted at same time as above, maybe a little redundant. I also use handgunlaw.us as well as an iPhone app called "Legal Heat")

You are more than welcome to use my comments, and can PM me if you need clarification.

Neil Owens

Knoxville

Edited December 29, 2011 by Lumber_Jack

[VolunteerGuns]

Permission

[Guest brianhaas]

Adamween, do you just go by the initial "A"? Or should I use your full first name? And if so, what is your first name? I assume Adam, but I can't run on assumptions.

[VolunteerGuns]

Adam. Great guess!

[Guest Kamikaze]

I always call the local sheriffs department of the area I am going to and ask them. They will be the ones you will deal with anyway.

[East_TN_Patriot]

One issue that folks fail to pay attention to in this debate is the problem of "states' rights" vs. "constitutional rights." On this issue and others similar to this one (gay marriage immediately comes to mind), people pick and choose the facts that they find most convenient to their argument. As we know, the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution says that "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." The "full faith and credit" clause of the US Constitution also states that "Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State," which has been applied to drivers' licenses and marriages. The 14th Amendment guarantees that all of the rights protected within the US Constitution apply at the state level as well, which is not how the original document was written. With all of these points within the US Constitution, one can make a valid argument that the State of New York should recognize the carry permits issued in other states, just as they would a DL or marriage. However, the "full faith and credit clause" has not been interpreted as a requirement to force states to overturn their own state laws in favor of another state's law, which would apply in the case of carry permits. Further, those who argue that the federal government has lawful authority to force states to recognize carry permits from other states is opening a door that they probably don't want to step through.

Let's take the issue of gay marriage for instance. Using the same argument as those who support the federal reciprocity statute, the federal government would also have the authority to force states like Tennessee to recognize the marriages of same-sex couples conducted in states like New York. One will then argue that marriage isn't a constitutional right. That is technically true. No marriage, whether same-sex or heterosexual, is a constitutional right by the letter of the document. However, the "equal protection clause" of the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution states:

" No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

In other words, as soon as the state recognizes any form of legal union between consenting adults, they must afford the same legal rights to anyone who chooses to take advantage of that special legal status. The Supreme Court has already applied this to sex discrimination cases, and it is likely one could make an argument that this also applies to same-sex marriage. I make this point because many people who support the use of federal authority to force states to recognize carry permits will then argue that the federal government doesn't have the authority to interfere with the states' right to prohibit same-sex marriage. We can't have it both ways.

[A.J. Holst]

I too check reciprocity laws when traveling out of state. Last time I checked, ignorance is not a valid defense.

[bigwakes]

I always call the local sheriffs department of the area I am going to and ask them. They will be the ones you will deal with anyway.

Not a good idea! Your assuming the person asnwering the phone is an expert on the law or is the officer you will be dealing with if your given bad information. You need to read the actual law or Q&A for the state website. Not a bad idea to take a copy with you too.

While I agree the lady was in the wrong she had no intention of committing a crime. That's rarely considered when the legal system is out to prove a point. If NYC takes this too far it will just help to prove the point that a national CCW law is in order. I'm not too sure how NYC has gotten away so long with ignoring the second amendment anyway.

[DaveTN]

Here is another story of a Tennessee woman arrested for carrying and trying to enter the Sears Tower in Chicago.

Illinois honors no states permits.

Sears Tower tourist caught with handgun - Chicago Tribune

Maybe you should do an article for the women’s section of the paper telling them not to rely on their dumb azz husbands to check the laws.

[Guest pfries]

I carry across state lines 10+ times a month; I belong to gun forums in all the states I frequent. It is my unfortunate responsibility to know the laws of all jurisdictions I will travel in. The myriad of laws from state to state can be overwhelming; I find that I often err to the side of caution, as occasionally I cannot recall specifics. For instance I may well not carry into a restaurant that serves alcohol even though law may allow it if I cannot recall the law for that specific state. The constitution has guaranteed the protection of certain rights, it is the legislative branches duty to pass laws to protect those rights, and I personally feel as though they have failed in their duty to do this on more than just second amendment issues.

Patrick Fries

[mikegideon]

Here is another story of a Tennessee woman arrested for carrying and trying to enter the Sears Tower in Chicago.

Illinois honors no states permits.

Sears Tower tourist caught with handgun - Chicago Tribune

Maybe you should do an article for the women’s section of the paper telling them not to rely on their dumb azz husbands to check the laws.

Don't curl your eyelashes while you're driving, and don't carry a loaded handgun in the Peoples Repulic of Illinios. Both need to be in the Survival Guide for Blondes

[Lumber_Jack]

I always call the local sheriffs department of the area I am going to and ask them. They will be the ones you will deal with anyway.

One would think this is a good way to be accurate, however as DaveTN stated often LEO don't know the laws. Story: I was in a jewelry store shopping for Christmas, and a man approached the Knox county deputy, in full uniform, standing at the door. He asked "is Virginia carry permit reciprocal in Tennessee?". The deputy replied "I'm not sure, you should look it up on the Internet."

[Guest Baron]

I am going to make a huge assumption here, but I would feel safe to say most people here would believe that the only thing more stupid than NY (CA, IL, etc) gun laws is a TN HCP holder that enters the state not knowing those laws.

I know some will argue that it is impossible to know every law ievery state, but some are just huge red flags (like NY). I believe this is a topic in every HCP class. If they did not pay attention to that, I wonder what else they slept through.

Its a burden and I do not think it is right. However, I agreed to follow the law and it is my responsibility to understand those laws if I wish to carry a firearm.

[Guest brianhaas]

Dave, thanks so much for that link. Wasn't aware of that case. I might try and reach out to that woman to get her thoughts on all this.

[hornett22]

I consider myself very knowledgeable on carry laws around the country. I have been studying them for many years. If I left Tennessee tonight to travel across state lines,I would still double check the laws where I going to or through.

[RobertNashville]

Scrapping CCW laws, and allowing law abiding citizens to freely exercise their 2nd ammendment rights would prevent such errors. As it stands today, a legal scholar who specializes in gun law would have trouble knowing and interpreting all the nuances of carry laws in 50 different states, not to mention staying abreast of the yearly changes in each state.

Having said that, I don't believe ignorance is a valid excuse for violating the law, and I do not defend the woman's actions.

Greg Herbert

Lafayette, Tennessee

I couldn't agree more...the primary problem with carry laws is that we have them at all...the meaning of the Second Amendment to the Constitution is obvious to any except those who simply refuse to understand its simple meaning and if all states were required to fully abide by that amendment, firearm preciosity issues would not exist.

We should no more have to have a "permit" to carry a weapon on our person than we should have a permit to take a breath.

Robert Armentrout

Murfreesboro, TN

[Mike.357]

I wonder what ever happened in the chicago incident. Never read anymore about it.

[mcurrier]

Reciprocity is an interesting topic. In this case, she simply didn't do her homework.

Just using Mike's quote as a jumping off point...

Aside from, yes, she should have checked first, and a ton of other good points posted in this thread...

Perhaps you should consider and angle based on - Your average normal law abiding citizen who obeys the law perhaps naively thinks that most people obey the law and and that once they got their carry permit, they just assumed that it was good everywhere.

Obviously, ignorance of the law is no excuse, but how many times do we have to hear these stories of people (the law abiding kind) innocently making a mistake in a communist state, or being check-mated by the system like the guy who's flight was diverted, then the next flight canceled, leaving him stranded in a commie state with his declared and checked gun by no fault of his own?

If the law was actually applied to criminals who committed real crimes, maybe we wouldn't have to be harassing innocent people for technical violations.

What happened to the National reciprocity thing they were recently talking about? Obviously the commie states would still not participate.

[Guest brianhaas]

Thanks everyone for the great discussion. I should point out that I've just found out that when this woman was arrested, police found suspected cocaine on her too...

In any event, I think it's still a great opportunity to use this as a discussion of reciprocity laws and how confusing it can be combined with the responsibility of gun owners to do their homework.

Great debate and again thanks to everyone. My story should be in tomorrow's paper.

-Brian