Empty Holster Protest..??

[Guest Catfish36]

I recently posted on the thread about College Campus Carry and it got me to thinking..(usually not a good thing)...On the subject of Campus Carry a national organization called "Students for Concealed Carry" hold yearly a national event where students all over the country carry Open Carry Holsters Empty. It is a peaceful protest of gun bans on college campus. When they are approached by someone asking why..they provide brochures or some education for the cause. While the SCC is strictly for concealed carry, they use this open carry holster protest to gain attention.

I also read through the long list of places tagged by the TGO of posted "no-gun" places. I also avoid doing business with idiots where possible, but sometimes it is not practical. Perhaps, we could use this method to educate some "non-gun" business and get our message out in a peaceful manner..?? For example, I do business with 4 banks in the Knoxville area, I believe only one of which is posted. One bank in particular I visit almost daily and I many times walk right in carrying openly...no one has ever said a word to me. (SunTrust for those who wish to give them your business). I have also been doing business with TVA for years ..but they are posted...what if licensed gun owners began to show up with empty holsters in a peaceful manner in hopes of gaining the attention of employees and using the opportunity to educate them on the cause??

Another particular "gun free" posted thorn in my side is the Foothills Mall in Maryville. I am bothered particularly by this because it is a hub for many business in my area, and I don't believe this was a decision made by them but rather by the Mall itself. Therefore, local businesses are losing my support due to no fault of their own. Perhaps I should walk right through the mall with and empty holster...There are A LOT of carry holders in this area..if we all did it..maybe someone would get the message.

Just a thought? Opinions?

On this subject..does anyone know if West Hills Mall or East Town Mall is posted or meant to be "gun-free" zone?

[wcsc12]

I recently posted on the thread about College Campus Carry and it got me to thinking..(usually not a good thing)...On the subject of Campus Carry a national organization called "Students for Concealed Carry" hold yearly a national event where students all over the country carry Open Carry Holsters Empty. It is a peaceful protest of gun bans on college campus. When they are approached by someone asking why..they provide brochures or some education for the cause. While the SCC is strictly for concealed carry, they use this open carry holster protest to gain attention.

I also read through the long list of places tagged by the TGO of posted "no-gun" places. I also avoid doing business with idiots where possible, but sometimes it is not practical. Perhaps, we could use this method to educate some "non-gun" business and get our message out in a peaceful manner..?? For example, I do business with 4 banks in the Knoxville area, I believe only one of which is posted. One bank in particular I visit almost daily and I many times walk right in carrying openly...no one has ever said a word to me. (SunTrust for those who wish to give them your business). I have also been doing business with TVA for years ..but they are posted...what if licensed gun owners began to show up with empty holsters in a peaceful manner in hopes of gaining the attention of employees and using the opportunity to educate them on the cause??

Another particular "gun free" posted thorn in my side is the Foothills Mall in Maryville. I am bothered particularly by this because it is a hub for many business in my area, and I don't believe this was a decision made by them but rather by the Mall itself. Therefore, local businesses are losing my support due to no fault of their own. Perhaps I should walk right through the mall with and empty holster...There are A LOT of carry holders in this area..if we all did it..maybe someone would get the message.

Just a thought? Opinions?

On this subject..does anyone know if West Hills Mall or East Town Mall is posted or meant to be "gun-free" zone?

Simon malls are weird. They aren't posted but it's up to whatever rent a cop mall security officer sees that your carrying and says something to you. I believe (it may have changed) that their company policy is to allow no firearms in the mall however, none of them are posted. Also, none of the stores (at either West or East) are posted. You can walk into JCP and they aren't posted and then walk into the mall which isn't posted either and I've not even seen a sign at a Simon mall that says no guns so who knows. I carry there all the time because no one has told me not to carry there. However, I do carry concealed and not openly so that's one thing to consider.

As far as the empty holsters go. I think it would go farther to just contact them privately rather than walk in with an empty holster but that's just my opinion. I understand the gesture but I would rather convey my feelings directly to the owner/manager in the hopes that my business and the business of other legal gun carriers means that much to them. If not, oh well, there's other shops around somewhere .

Edited December 19, 2011 by wcsc12

[Guest nysos]

Simon malls are weird. They aren't posted but it's up to whatever rent a cop mall security officer sees that your carrying and says something to you. I believe (it may have changed) that their company policy is to allow no firearms in the mall however, none of them are posted. Also, none of the stores (at either West or East) are posted. You can walk into JCP and they aren't posted and then walk into the mall which isn't posted either and I've not even seen a sign at a Simon mall that says no guns so who knows. I carry there all the time because no one has told me not to carry there. However, I do carry concealed and not openly so that's one thing to consider.

Their company policy is no carrying. The only entrance I have seen a posting (and not even a proper posting) has been on the entrance from the parking garage that goes into where funscape used to be or whatever they call that area now. If you come OUT that way and look up, they have a sign attached to the concrete support that you walk under going in. And the posting is pretty vague saying "no weapons". So it isn't a legal posting in the least as you don't see it walking in to the establishment. I have not seen any other postings on any other store entrances except Dr. Bizer's, they actually have a sign on their store front.

I carry at west town all the time as well, and when my girlfriend was picking out glasses @ Dr. Bizer's and I noticed the sign I just waited outside on a bench, as they had a legal posting (gunbuster sign).

[Guest Catfish36]

So just to clarify for my information. "Their company policy" means absolutly nothing if they do not properly post according to state law , correct?

[herr.baer]

They hold "Empty Holster Protests" here in Maryland. The group got together and had shirts printed up that said, "Ask me about my empty holster". Also had brochures on facts and figures of Pro and Anti carry states.

[h=2][/h]

[wcsc12]

So just to clarify for my information. "Their company policy" means absolutly nothing if they do not properly post according to state law , correct?

Yes and no. Technically speaking, we should respect their company policy but it has no legal weight of the law. However, if we are carrying and they advise us of their policy and ask us to leave, we have to do so or we'll be trespassing.

Their company policy is no carrying. The only entrance I have seen a posting (and not even a proper posting) has been on the entrance from the parking garage that goes into where funscape used to be or whatever they call that area now. If you come OUT that way and look up, they have a sign attached to the concrete support that you walk under going in. And the posting is pretty vague saying "no weapons". So it isn't a legal posting in the least as you don't see it walking in to the establishment. I have not seen any other postings on any other store entrances except Dr. Bizer's, they actually have a sign on their store front.

I carry at west town all the time as well, and when my girlfriend was picking out glasses @ Dr. Bizer's and I noticed the sign I just waited outside on a bench, as they had a legal posting (gunbuster sign).

Off Topic....GOOOD morning Nysos....wanna go plinking Tuesday or Wednesday?

Edited December 19, 2011 by wcsc12

[Caster]

I always display my empty holster at the Post Office. They asked me once or twice. Now, none of the employees pay me any attention. Although the last time I was in there a Cop was in line with me. I told him it wasn't fair he could carry and I couldn't. He smiled and said if it were up to him, I could carry anywhere I wanted. It's cops like that, that I will be more than willing to lend and hand in a bad situation.

Open holster protests? Sounds great for places you HAVE to go. Court, and other gov buildings. Hospitals and ECT.

[Will H]

I guess I see this a little differently. As far as I can tell the US Constitution says I have the right to keep and bear arms. When last I looked to bear something means to carry it. Therefore I feel that any "gun control" over law abiding citizens is unconstitutional. This INCLUDES the need for me to get an HCP to carry a weapon.

I would like to see an "Empty Holster" day to protest the HCP laws, and the state of Tennessee charging me money to utilize my constitutional rights.

Just my opinion.

[Guest Catfish36]

I guess I see this a little differently. As far as I can tell the US Constitution says I have the right to keep and bear arms. When last I looked to bear something means to carry it. Therefore I feel that any "gun control" over law abiding citizens is unconstitutional. This INCLUDES the need for me to get an HCP to carry a weapon.

I would like to see an "Empty Holster" day to protest the HCP laws, and the state of Tennessee charging me money to utilize my constitutional rights.

Just my opinion.

Will, while I understand your argument...We do need laws and regulations to be a civil society. I don't want any 15 or 16 or 12 or 85 year old person saying.."I dont need a license to drive a 2000 pound car." We need laws to make sure we are all safe. I don't want someone who is not willing to qualify themselves carrying a firearm. I don't want a felon or criminally minded person carrying a firearm. I don't want a legal american citizen who is not of age to make wise decisions carrying a firearm. However, if someone is legal and licensed and has paid the time and money to prove themselves...they should not be denied the right to carry.

I also understand the argument that any business or property owner has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason and also that they have the right to refuse patrons to carry on their property. However, when they execute this right here in Tennessee they need to be made aware that they are costing themselves alot of business by law abiding citizens. When we simply do not patronize these places, unfortunately they do not no why or that they have even lost our business. Therefore, I think it fair that we find someway to let them know that we as Gun Carriers are a large group in this state and that our rights matter to us. They need to know that if they choose to not allow us to carry we will let others know on sites such as this and their business will suffer loss because of their action. I think if more business owners were simply educated in some way, we would see less "gun-free" zones and in my opinion, possibly less places were criminals could target.

[JayC]

I always display my empty holster at the Post Office. They asked me once or twice. Now, none of the employees pay me any attention. Although the last time I was in there a Cop was in line with me. I told him it wasn't fair he could carry and I couldn't. He smiled and said if it were up to him, I could carry anywhere I wanted. It's cops like that, that I will be more than willing to lend and hand in a bad situation.

Open holster protests? Sounds great for places you HAVE to go. Court, and other gov buildings. Hospitals and ECT.

Umm just curious but what official police business was he conducting in line at the post office? My understanding is only as part of their official duties are police officers allowed to carry into federal installations.

[JayC]

We only need laws to punish criminal behavior, we need few is any regulations for a civil society. Laws are not there to make you safe, and even if that was their intent, they fail completely at it.

I've said it time and time again, our current permit system is nothing but taxes and corporate welfare... How many people who take a HCP course fail it? We hear cases of a person here or there failing it, but the fact is it's much less than 1%... All that time and money because some small fraction of 1% of people who can afford the class can't pass it? That is an awful lot of liberty I'm giving up for very little safety.

How much worse do you really think it would be if we allowed anybody without a felon record to carry? I suspect there would be very little increase in shootings in the street... States which have completely done away with permit systems (AZ) haven't seen a sharp rise in otherwise law abiding citizens being unable to control themselves and shooting people.

All this type of government regulation does is make it harder for somebody to protect themselves, and does little if anything to protect the rest of society...

If my choice was between paying the government to keep a TDOS open to issue drivers licenses or doing away with it completely? I'd be happy to do away with it completely. Parents allowing their 15 year olds to drive cars scares me a lot less than government bureaucrats.

Will, while I understand your argument...We do need laws and regulations to be a civil society. I don't want any 15 or 16 or 12 or 85 year old person saying.."I dont need a license to drive a 2000 pound car." We need laws to make sure we are all safe. I don't want someone who is not willing to qualify themselves carrying a firearm. I don't want a felon or criminally minded person carrying a firearm. I don't want a legal american citizen who is not of age to make wise decisions carrying a firearm. However, if someone is legal and licensed and has paid the time and money to prove themselves...they should not be denied the right to carry.

I also understand the argument that any business or property owner has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason and also that they have the right to refuse patrons to carry on their property. However, when they execute this right here in Tennessee they need to be made aware that they are costing themselves alot of business by law abiding citizens. When we simply do not patronize these places, unfortunately they do not no why or that they have even lost our business. Therefore, I think it fair that we find someway to let them know that we as Gun Carriers are a large group in this state and that our rights matter to us. They need to know that if they choose to not allow us to carry we will let others know on sites such as this and their business will suffer loss because of their action. I think if more business owners were simply educated in some way, we would see less "gun-free" zones and in my opinion, possibly less places were criminals could target.

[Will H]

Will, while I understand your argument...We do need laws and regulations to be a civil society. I don't want any 15 or 16 or 12 or 85 year old person saying.."I dont need a license to drive a 2000 pound car." We need laws to make sure we are all safe. I don't want someone who is not willing to qualify themselves carrying a firearm. I don't want a felon or criminally minded person carrying a firearm. I don't want a legal american citizen who is not of age to make wise decisions carrying a firearm. However, if someone is legal and licensed and has paid the time and money to prove themselves...they should not be denied the right to carry.

Driving a car is not, and never has been a "right." It has always been a privilege. Keeping and bearing arms is my right. Now, I have no issue with taking a safety course, or even proving marksmanship, but I have a BIG problem paying money to do so. If the government wants me to prove my safety and ability then fine. But do not make me pay to take advantage of my 2a rights. It's like charging people to use free speech.

[china coaster]

For all you folks that contend that operating a motor vehicle is a privilege why didn't the country fall apart the first 30 or 40 years before licenses were widley used. When I was a kid it was very common to know older people that had no license. If you think it's a privilege just let the state ban private vechicles in favor of public transportation and watch the state try and inforce it. I can get on my 7 ton tractor and get on any road without a license and I've heard of no great out cry to ban farmers from roads. All this means is that we accept the regulation because it is an inconvenience we can live with. Make it a lot tougher and see what happens.

[Guest Catfish36]

We only need laws to punish criminal behavior, we need few is any regulations for a civil society. Laws are not there to make you safe, and even if that was their intent, they fail completely at it.

I've said it time and time again, our current permit system is nothing but taxes and corporate welfare... How many people who take a HCP course fail it? We hear cases of a person here or there failing it, but the fact is it's much less than 1%... All that time and money because some small fraction of 1% of people who can afford the class can't pass it? That is an awful lot of liberty I'm giving up for very little safety.

How much worse do you really think it would be if we allowed anybody without a felon record to carry? I suspect there would be very little increase in shootings in the street... States which have completely done away with permit systems (AZ) haven't seen a sharp rise in otherwise law abiding citizens being unable to control themselves and shooting people.

All this type of government regulation does is make it harder for somebody to protect themselves, and does little if anything to protect the rest of society...

If my choice was between paying the government to keep a TDOS open to issue drivers licenses or doing away with it completely? I'd be happy to do away with it completely. Parents allowing their 15 year olds to drive cars scares me a lot less than government bureaucrats.

Broseph, I hear ya loud and clear. Not a fan of bureaucracy either, red tape or just finding ways to get more money. But let me add...we both agree that we do not want felons on the street with firearms..they have given up their rights by taking someone else's. That being said, the only way to regulate this is for law abiding citizens to somehow comply to background checks and carry a HCP to show it. The class is easy to pass agreed, but you cant make it past that class to get your HCP if you are a felon. I welcome any kind spoken, well mannered LEO who sees me carrying and asks for identification. I am proud to identify myself...I am a law abiding American! I did not take another's rights and I did not sneak over here. I carry with pride, and I have nothing to hide. Now paying a monetary amount to keep my 2nd Amendment right...well you may have a valid point there..but having a system set in place to identify the "responsible citizen", well I still think that is needed.

How did we get off on this anyway?..haha...

[daddyo]

So, felons/criminals are going to carry weapons whether or not they are prohibited from doing so, or did I miss something?

Once again, gun laws serve only to place restrictions on the law-abiding.

[JayC]

Broseph, I hear ya loud and clear. Not a fan of bureaucracy either, red tape or just finding ways to get more money. But let me add...we both agree that we do not want felons on the street with firearms..they have given up their rights by taking someone else's. That being said, the only way to regulate this is for law abiding citizens to somehow comply to background checks and carry a HCP to show it. The class is easy to pass agreed, but you cant make it past that class to get your HCP if you are a felon. I welcome any kind spoken, well mannered LEO who sees me carrying and asks for identification. I am proud to identify myself...I am a law abiding American! I did not take another's rights and I did not sneak over here. I carry with pride, and I have nothing to hide. Now paying a monetary amount to keep my 2nd Amendment right...well you may have a valid point there..but having a system set in place to identify the "responsible citizen", well I still think that is needed.

How did we get off on this anyway?..haha...

If my choice is between having to do background checks, and paying taxes to the state to own and carry firearms, I'm willing to risk felons carrying firearms. Frankly if they're so dangerous we can't allow them to own a firearm, then we probably should keep them in jail.

How about we assume that all citizens are responsible? Until they prove otherwise? I shouldn't have to bow to any man unless I'm causing harm to my fellow citizen (physical or fraud)...

Further, it's not a right if I have to ask the government for permission, and then prove whenever they ask that I am allowed my 'right'.

My rights come from my creator, not from some government worker bee, or the legislature.

[jtmaze]

I OC protest every time I take my gun outta holster, put in safe, go in business, school, ect. I really don't get much attention that I know of.

JTM🔫

Sent from my iPhone

[Guest Catfish36]

So are you guys saying you Do or Do NOt want to participate in an Empty Open Carry Holster peaceful protest? Hahahaha....Just Kidding.

Love the conversation. Thanks for the input. JayC, Will and especially DaddyO ( who dumbed it down so I could understand..ha).you guys make a very valid point and I understand completely and agree with you 97.4%.

[Dennis1209]

Driving a car is not, and never has been a "right." It has always been a privilege. Keeping and bearing arms is my right. Now, I have no issue with taking a safety course, or even proving marksmanship, but I have a BIG problem paying money to do so. If the government wants me to prove my safety and ability then fine. But do not make me pay to take advantage of my 2a rights. It's like charging people to use free speech.

Humm... There's expenses associated with safety courses; targets, over head, pay, etc. The government has no money, they confiscate it from the productive and distribute it to their political choice. So, if the government funds it, Joe Blow who just hates the thought of guns is flipping the bill. Just playing Devils advocate.

[Guest pfries]

Humm... There's expenses associated with safety courses; targets, over head, pay, etc. The government has no money, they confiscate it from the productive and distribute it to their political choice. So, if the government funds it, Joe Blow who just hates the thought of guns is flipping the bill. Just playing Devils advocate.

I can understand covering costs but that is it, not 50 to 125 for class (private) and then 115 for permit that is outrageous, a friend of mine wants his HCP but cannot lay out the cash so he can't execise his right (I know privilage).

[Guest Catfish36]

Just to add to the confusion...haha

You have the right to an attorney...if you can not afford an attorney one will be appointed to you.

[Oh Shoot]

....You have the right to an attorney...if you can not afford an attorney one will be appointed to you.

And you get the best judicial outcome you can afford.

- OS

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

I guess I see this a little differently. As far as I can tell the US Constitution says I have the right to keep and bear arms. When last I looked to bear something means to carry it. Therefore I feel that any "gun control" over law abiding citizens is unconstitutional. This INCLUDES the need for me to get an HCP to carry a weapon.

I would like to see an "Empty Holster" day to protest the HCP laws, and the state of Tennessee charging me money to utilize my constitutional rights.

Just my opinion.

Amen brother, amen.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

Will, while I understand your argument...We do need laws and regulations to be a civil society. I don't want any 15 or 16 or 12 or 85 year old person saying.."I dont need a license to drive a 2000 pound car."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I dont think anywhere in the Constitution it says "The right of the people to keep & drive cars shall not be infringed." If it did say that then I would disagree with you.....

As someone mentioned above, laws & regulations only make things harder on law-abiding citizens. If Bubba doesnt know anything about carrying a gun he can just not take the permit course & carry one around anyways.

I think Tennessee should adopt Arizona's carry system & laws. Its funny to me when people say that Arizona's lax carry laws led to the Giffords shooting earlier this year. I never understood that. So if it would have been illegal for Loughner to carry a gun he wouldnt have done it? It was illegal for him to shoot people & he did that anyways......

Its also funny to me how people think that if you pass a law against something its not going to happen anymore. Like banning guns in schools & thinking that somehow that will make it so no one ever gets shot in a school anymore. How's that working out?

People are silly....

Edited December 20, 2011 by ArmaDeFuego

[wcsc12]

Umm just curious but what official police business was he conducting in line at the post office? My understanding is only as part of their official duties are police officers allowed to carry into federal installations.

Bingo! However, our Postal Inspectors are extremely laxed around here. They have more internal matters to deal with rather than external so a lot of things slide by. There's lots of cops who stop by the Weisgarber post office in the morning to check their PO boxes in uniform and armed and they don't really care that they are breaking the law and neither do the ones who are supposed to enforce it.

Edited December 20, 2011 by wcsc12