Road Rage involving Oak Ridge officers in Knoxville

[DaveTN]

It bothers me that we're not getting the whole story. It also bothers me that a lot of shaddy stuff goes down and nothing is done about it. It bothers me that people think that because they're cops they can do no wrong.

I worked with plenty of cops and I certainly know they can do wrong. They can do wrong intentionally, and they sometimes make mistakes like all other human beings.

But I wouldn’t want to see them go to trial just because they are cops any more than I would want to see one of us go to trail just because we are an HCP holder and “Should have known betterâ€. And I sure don’t expect to see them take the heat for everything you think is wrong in government simply because they wear a badge.

The cops are cleared so now you suggest that the DA may be corrupt? Is that possible? Sure it’s possible, if you want to believe that all the investigating Officers involved, all the Command Officers involved at KPD, the Chief of ORPD, the Assistant DA, and the DA are all corrupt. You would have to have you tin foil hat on so tight it cut off the circulation to your brain to believe that.

Have you considered that maybe the police spokesmen aren’t going into detail because they don’t want to drag the guy who reported this through the mud any more than he already has been? They told you that the witness accounts don’t match what he said. Case over; they have no need to make their case in the press.

[Makiaveli]

While I believe corruption could exist with only one or two people involved in actually committing the crimes (Penn State), I have to go with Dave on this one.

[JayC]

Isn't there a big corruption investigation about this DA and the a Drug Task Force than includes members of the Oak Ridge PD? Something about using seized assets for personal use?

[Fallguy]

Isn't there a big corruption investigation about this DA and the a Drug Task Force than includes members of the Oak Ridge PD? Something about using seized assets for personal use?

No, that is a DA and Drug Task force here in West TN.

[JayC]

No, that is a DA and Drug Task force here in West TN.

My bad

[jtmaze]

No, that is a DA and Drug Task force here in West TN.

Anybody I know. I had to quit watching TV due to health problems. I need to search that one.

JTM🔫

Sent from my iPhone

[hornett22]

I worked with plenty of cops and I certainly know they can do wrong. They can do wrong intentionally, and they sometimes make mistakes like all other human beings.

But I wouldn’t want to see them go to trial just because they are cops any more than I would want to see one of us go to trail just because we are an HCP holder and “Should have known betterâ€. And I sure don’t expect to see them take the heat for everything you think is wrong in government simply because they wear a badge.

The cops are cleared so now you suggest that the DA may be corrupt? Is that possible? Sure it’s possible, if you want to believe that all the investigating Officers involved, all the Command Officers involved at KPD, the Chief of ORPD, the Assistant DA, and the DA are all corrupt. You would have to have you tin foil hat on so tight it cut off the circulation to your brain to believe that.

Have you considered that maybe the police spokesmen aren’t going into detail because they don’t want to drag the guy who reported this through the mud any more than he already has been? They told you that the witness accounts don’t match what he said. Case over; they have no need to make their case in the press.

I know for a fact from my dealings with KPD they are corrupt. No doubt about it. DA about the same. I wasn't the accused either. Pretty sad state of affairs. Glad I do not live in the city of Knoxville.

[Fallguy]

Anybody I know. I had to quit watching TV due to health problems. I need to search that one.

JTM

Sent from my iPhone

Hansel McAdams

[Guest NYCrulesU]

I know for a fact from my dealings with KPD they are corrupt. No doubt about it. DA about the same. I wasn't the accused either. Pretty sad state of affairs. Glad I do not live in the city of Knoxville.

Sparta Sheriff Dept and PD are corrupt as well. Our slogan...."Come to Sparta, best place for LE to commit murder and get away with it!"

RIP T.S

[Guest mcgyver210]

Appears to me it did. The DA did “several interviews†and determined that the Officers “Acted on a reasonable basis to pull their guns†and “No criminal charges were justifiedâ€.

Does it bother you that a gun was pulled and no one was arrested, or that cops were accused of something and they didn’t have a public trial simply because they were cops?

I actually wrote a long reply to this that most assuredly would have brought out negative responses so I just deleted it & decided to go with a simple to the point reply.

The real issue is not if the LEOs were in the wrong, The real issue is why do so few people trust LEOs now days to be honest, honorable, trust-able etc etc?

I have a few answers but I will keep them to myself for now.

As for this incident it comes across as another coverup not because it is but because of the way it was handled. Maybe it is time to have an independent group report on these types of incidences to bring some trust back to the system. It may be too late for even that to create trust that is lost.

[DaveTN]

I actually wrote a long reply to this that most assuredly would have brought out negative responses so I just deleted it & decided to go with a simple to the point reply.

The real issue is not if the LEOs were in the wrong, The real issue is why do so few people trust LEOs now days to be honest, honorable, trust-able etc etc?

I have a few answers but I will keep them to myself for now.

As for this incident it comes across as another coverup not because it is but because of the way it was handled. Maybe it is time to have an independent group report on these types of incidences to bring some trust back to the system. It may be too late for even that to create trust that is lost.

As long as you keep it civil and don’t start using phrases like “most cops†or simply want to see them go to trial because they are cops; your remarks may get negative responses but that doesn’t mean they can’t be discussed.

I can remember when this thread would have not gone on this long without being locked and at least a couple of people banned.

If you think there is a cover up, I suggest that it is because of the media, not the cops or the DA. Have any reporters been to the DA’s office to get any specifics about the case? Can the DA give any specifics without compromising the investigation the ORPD Chief is conducting, or any other possible criminal or civil cases that may be coming out of this case?

Is it appropriate to name witnesses or say what they said to investigators simply so you can have a warm fuzzy feeling about the PD? Is it right for them to give information that is going to throw other people under the bus? Of course it isn’t because if you don’t know your local cops or your Police Chief it isn’t going to make one bit of difference. And if you do know them you aren’t going to make decisions based on sketchy info in a newspaper story.

So hit the undelete, remove the stuff that will get you banned, and post your thoughts.

[Guest mcgyver210]

As long as you keep it civil and don’t start using phrases like “most cops” or simply want to see them go to trial because they are cops; your remarks may get negative responses but that doesn’t mean they can’t be discussed.

I can remember when this thread would have not gone on this long without being locked and at least a couple of people banned.

If you think there is a cover up, I suggest that it is because of the media, not the cops or the DA. Have any reporters been to the DA’s office to get any specifics about the case? Can the DA give any specifics without compromising the investigation the ORPD Chief is conducting, or any other possible criminal or civil cases that may be coming out of this case?

Is it appropriate to name witnesses or say what they said to investigators simply so you can have a warm fuzzy feeling about the PD? Is it right for them to give information that is going to throw other people under the bus? Of course it isn’t because if you don’t know your local cops or your Police Chief it isn’t going to make one bit of difference. And if you do know them you aren’t going to make decisions based on sketchy info in a newspaper story.

So hit the undelete, remove the stuff that will get you banned, and post your thoughts.

Good Reply Dave & which is why I always read your post with an open mind even when we don't agree. I just decided it is very hard not to come across as a LEO hater if you don't agree with one side over another so it was best to keep quiet this time. I really do respect a Good LEO but I have zero respect for a Bad LEO which is the ones bringing down the respect for the ones doing a hard job with honor.

I have a very narrow view of fair & unfair treatment unfortunately. I also firmly believe LEOs, Judges, county court clerks etc etc should be held to a higher standard when they cross the line. But the real fact is that they are rarely if ever held to even an equal standard which is why when a LEO is said to have crossed the line I usually will say to myself the only thing will happen is the LEO will get paid leave & be internally investigated by his brothers in blue which usually ends with the LEO is cleared of any wrong doing. Unless there is video or audio then sometimes they will actually be punished although usually not an equal punishment. Even if they are fired when others would have gone to jail they will just go to another department allot of the time.

What I need is to be able to trust them like I did when I was a kid. Now I just don't automatically trust one just because he tells me something first thing comes to mind is: They are aloud to knowingly LIE to me so should I trust what this one is saying?

They don't even go by the old saying "To Protect & Serve" anymore.

I really don't like feeling this way.

Dave you seem like you was a good LEO though IMO.

[billyscott]

Dave and mcgyver, I agree with some of what both of you say. But this thread has gone on for so long because there is still a lot of interest in it. And all we know so far is that the DA is not going to press charges. As far as the ORPD investigation, it's been seven weeks. Nuff Said. People would like to know the story of what really happened. And the officers names don't have to be released. As far as "any other possible criminal or civil cases that may be coming out of this case", I don't know if an ORPD statement would be admissable in court, but as long as it's the truth, it shouldn't matter.

My 2 cents for the day.

[DaveTN]

Good Reply Dave & which is why I always read your post with an open mind even when we don't agree. I just decided it is very hard not to come across as a LEO hater if you don't agree with one side over another so it was best to keep quiet this time. I really do respect a Good LEO but I have zero respect for a Bad LEO which is the ones bringing down the respect for the ones doing a hard job with honor.

I have a very narrow view of fair & unfair treatment unfortunately. I also firmly believe LEOs, Judges, county court clerks etc etc should be held to a higher standard when they cross the line. But the real fact is that they are rarely if ever held to even an equal standard which is why when a LEO is said to have crossed the line I usually will say to myself the only thing will happen is the LEO will get paid leave & be internally investigated by his brothers in blue which usually ends with the LEO is cleared of any wrong doing. Unless there is video or audio then sometimes they will actually be punished although usually not an equal punishment. Even if they are fired when others would have gone to jail they will just go to another department allot of the time.

What I need is to be able to trust them like I did when I was a kid. Now I just don't automatically trust one just because he tells me something first thing comes to mind is: They are aloud to knowingly LIE to me so should I trust what this one is saying?

They don't even go by the old saying "To Protect & Serve" anymore.

I really don't like feeling this way.

Dave you seem like you was a good LEO though IMO.

Thanks, I think I was good cop and I tried my best, but I just couldn’t do it anymore. It gets old. It takes a very special person to stay at that job. Not only will the public turn on you but your own department will turn on you if it benifits them. Who would put up with that for a full career?

I don’t have a dog in this fight anymore, but I see people attack cops just because they are cops and I have to laugh out loud that people will even listen to them.

Man, I’ve meet plenty of bad cops and some of them even retired. But you don’t hear about how some of the cops are reprimanded or suspended over BS that means nothing. You usually only hear about the cops that are fired or are in a high profile case.

When the cops are wrong I am the first to say so and have even suggested to people how to deal with it. But dang man look at the two cases we have going here right now. This one has absolutely no evidence that the Officers did anything wrong. No witnesses have come forward and said the cops did anything wrong. The DA says the witness statements don’t support the story the other driver is telling. It’s over….period. An if that was an HCP holder that was facing charges it would be a great thing that justice was served; but because its cops, there must be a cover up? And now the DA is corrupt.

And the other case where the THP Trooper is accused of driving past some dirt bag that just killed himself while putting everyone on the road at risk. Why??? What possible reason could he have for doing that? And it wasn’t even the public or the family of the dead perp that went after him; it was a high ranking THP official. They are going to fire that Trooper and end his career over something that doesn’t even make sense in the way it is being presented. A Police administrator goes to the scene, drives his car through three times at different speeds and makes a determination that a Trooper pumped up on adrenalin and probably experiencing tunnel vision during a chase, should have seen a crashed car at night. That case is so bizarre it doesn’t even make sense to me…. I want to know what’s going on.

No you don’t feel the same way about cops as you did when you were a kid, none of us do. I have been there, walked in their shoes and seen the demons. But I don’t hate cops; it’s a job. It’s a job that someone had to do and I would like to see them at least have a shot at getting good cops. But cops make mistakes. Are they arrested and fired? No, not generally. But what are you going to have if start having panels of people to fire cops every time they make a mistake? You are going to have a revolving door and a Police Department that is filled with people that can’t find a job anywhere else and know they won’t be cops for long.

Policing has changed. When I was a cop we were expected to be social workers, marriage counselors, ministers, cops and street cleaners. That has changed. Cops are there to enforce the law. If that isn’t what you want, call your Minister; not the Police. I tell people that ask me if they should call the Police on an unruly child or a partner that is threatening them that they shouldn’t unless they want the partner arrested for Domestic Violence or their kid placed in Juvenile Detention. Times have changed and the hands of the cops are tied in many cases.

I go on my tangent every once in a while about cops kicking in doors while dressed in subdued uniform and wearing masks. You can’t say they are bad cops. They are just immature cops that watched one to many episodes of SWAT when they were a kid. The real “Bad cops†in that scenario is any Chief of Police or Sherriff that allows that.

[DaveTN]

Dave and mcgyver, I agree with some of what both of you say. But this thread has gone on for so long because there is still a lot of interest in it. And all we know so far is that the DA is not going to press charges. As far as the ORPD investigation, it's been seven weeks. Nuff Said. People would like to know the story of what really happened. And the officers names don't have to be released. As far as "any other possible criminal or civil cases that may be coming out of this case", I don't know if an ORPD statement would be admissable in court, but as long as it's the truth, it shouldn't matter.

The Officers names have already been released. If you are that interested in this try to keep up.

[billyscott]

Dave, my mind is going Dave, I can feel it. . . When and where were the names released?

I've been checking the Knoxville News Sentinel, the last I saw on this incident was published January 24 and

the next to last paragraph reads " The officers' names have not been released. "

All I was saying was the names didn't have to be released. If there are no charges and no discipline

then why drag their names through the mud?

But yes, I am still interested, despite my ignorance, which I apologize for!

[Guest mcgyver210]

Dave, my mind is going Dave, I can feel it. . . When and where were the names released?

I've been checking the Knoxville News Sentinel, the last I saw on this incident was published January 24 and

the next to last paragraph reads " The officers' names have not been released. "

All I was saying was the names didn't have to be released. If there are no charges and no discipline

then why drag their names through the mud?

But yes, I am still interested, despite my ignorance, which I apologize for!

Because FAIR is FAIR UNFAIR IS UNFAIR, We all know if it had been a non LEO or even a politician the names would have been disclosed in the beginning to the public no matter the guilt or decision by a DA. This is another reason why I don't trust internal investigations by their brothers in blue.

As it is they were protected until it wasn't as obvious they had been disclosed which is why many that first saw the story don't know their names but the alleged victims name was released in the original story without hesitation.

Edited February 5, 2012 by mcgyver210

[DaveTN]

Because FAIR is FAIR UNFAIR IS UNFAIR

This is another reason why I don't trust internal investigations by their brothers in blue.

This wasn’t an internal investigation. This was Knoxville Police investigating two people who happened to work for Oak Ridge.

The determination about criminal charges was made by the DA’s office; not “Brothers in Blueâ€.

Now the Officers get to experience the double jeopardy that a citizen doesn’t have to worry about. Now they will be tried by their own department. The Chief has already said he doesn’t think they did anything wrong, but there isn’t anything that keeps him from taking action even though the Knoxville PD and the DA’s office have closed this case “Unfoundedâ€. So no, this isn’t a case of “Fair is Fairâ€, if it was this would be over.

You don’t know what the witnesses said. Should their names be published? Because if they said it didn’t happen the way the truck driver said (as the DA said) the cop haters won’t accept that unless the witnesses are named and they have every opportunity to find anything about them that could possibly explain them being part of this huge multi-agency cover-up for two cops from another department.

Just out of curiosity, who would you have trusted to investigate this claim?

[Garufa]

An update.....

Oak Ridge chief closes 'road-rage' probe, finds no wrongdoing

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/mar/21/oak-ridge-chief-closes-road-rage-probe-finds-no/

[Lumber_Jack]

But the cops are still dirty, right? And the chief too?

I still wonder why 'On Duty' Oak Ridge officers were at waffle house on Knoxville, in an unmarked car. But these questions may not be answered.

[TMF]

There just must be something significant that we don't know about for them to be cleared. If this was swept under the rug then that department has just left the civil lawsuit gate wide open if either of these officers does something really bad in the future. There's just gotta be some info we don't know if there have been this many eyes on this from different departments and the DA.

If this was swept under the rug that's a pretty big gamble for the Chief to make. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior, and if this was a case of a hotheaded cop you can bet it won't be the last incident.

Edited March 22, 2012 by TMF 18B

[BigK]

From the sound of things the Estep got ugly and the cops felt threatened. Seems the investigators agreed. Telling his side of the story to the press early and the hell that it raised may have been all that kept Estep from being arrested. But then again, nobody but the 3 of them know for sure.

[TNFF319]

Thin blue line strikes again.

Edited March 22, 2012 by TNFF319

[Mike.357]

Anything short of a cop lynching is gonna bring claims of favoritism.

Maybe, just maybe the cops did nothing wrong.