Road Rage involving Oak Ridge officers in Knoxville

[Bubba0031]

The morning print edition of the Oak Ridger says the DA has cleared the officers but that the police chief will do an internal investagation. The story is not posted on line yet and I did not have time to read it before leaving the house. I'll try to get the office copy in the next hour or so.

[TMF]

So at what point are the facts of the investigation revealed? There only seems to be one side of the story here and no attempt on the part of the DA to inform the public.

[bubbadavis]

It is a better conversation than “Can I ship a handgun across state lines without using an FFL?” though isn’t it.

Well, of course you can... if you like prison food!

[Bubba0031]

I had an opportunity to read the article. In summary it says the DA believed the officer or officers were justified in pulling their weapon(s). It does not explain why or discuss the circumstances. It does name the officers. It says the status of both officers remains unchanged and that one of them is still on modified duty. It does not say why or which officer.

[BrasilNuts]

I had an opportunity to read the article. In summary it says the DA believed the officer or officers were justified in pulling their weapon(s). It does not explain why or discuss the circumstances. It does name the officers. It says the status of both officers remains unchanged and that one of them is still on modified duty. It does not say why or which officer.

To me this thing still stinks like yesterdays diaper.

If the OR officers were justified in pulling their weapons then the KPD should have been called by the OR officers and Mr. Estep should have been dealt with accordingly.

Edit: Maybe the internal investigation by the ORPD will address that.

Edited January 24, 2012 by BrasilNuts

[sparksjr]

I would love to know what 1 guy did (that didnt get him arrested) that justified 2 officers pulling a weapon. I guess I am not surprised the hypocrisy lives on.

[Berettatn]

Does it sound to anyone else like we have a case of three hot heads here who can't keep their mouths (or their guns) in their holster?

[sschrick]

HEADLINE: NEWS FLASH. . .the cops got off, no charges as per "The Oak Ridger" just printed. . .

http://www.oakridger.com/newsnow/x364054435/Oak-Ridge-officers-cleared-in-road-rage-incident

Edited January 24, 2012 by sschrick

[Lumber_Jack]

Raise your hand of you're surprised by this .....

[Lumber_Jack]

Does it sound to anyone else like we have a case of three hot heads here who can't keep their mouths (or their guns) in their holster?

Most likely. If I had to bet money I'd say all parties involved acted irresponsibly.

[DaveTN]

The only facts we have right now is that the DA ruled someone was justified in pulling a gun, and that the witness’s story doesn’t support the "victim’s" version.

I don’t see a problem yet.

[Lumber_Jack]

The only facts we have right now is that the DA ruled someone was justified in pulling a gun, and that the witness’s story doesn’t support the "victim’s" version.

I don’t see a problem yet.

That's assuming the DA acted on credible, or lack of credible, evidence. I don't have a tinfoil hat, but I might borrow one for this case.

[DaveTN]

That's assuming the DA acted on credible, or lack of credible, evidence. I don't have a tinfoil hat, but I might borrow one for this case.

Beyond reasonable doubt. That is the standard the DA has to look at. I wouldn’t want him to charge an HCP holder just because he can, and I expect these Officers to be treated the same way.

Do you know of a case where this DA charged an innocent citizen who pulled a gun on an aggressor in a road rage incident?

No need for a tin foil hat, you are a grown 31 year old man; trust what your common sense tells you.

[Lumber_Jack]

Beyond reasonable doubt. That is the standard the DA has to look at. I wouldn’t want him to charge an HCP holder just because he can, and I expect these Officers to be treated the same way.

Do you know of a case where this DA charged an innocent citizen who pulled a gun on an aggressor in a road rage incident?

No need for a tin foil hat, you are a grown 31 year old man; trust what your common sense tells you.

You're correct about reasonable doubt. But I also know that, lack of evidence, doesn't mean they didn't act unprofessionally.

Actually since no one was hurt, I'm glad no one was prosecuted. I just hope those two officers were justified in their actions, and of not, they have learned a valuable lesson. Otherwise this may not be the last time we see their names in the paper.

[DaveTN]

You're correct about reasonable doubt. But I also know that, lack of evidence, doesn't mean they didn't act unprofessionally.

Actually since no one was hurt, I'm glad no one was prosecuted. I just hope those two officers were justified in their actions, and of not, they have learned a valuable lesson. Otherwise this may not be the last time we see their names in the paper.

As I’ve said a couple of times; this isn’t necessarily over. Cops face double jeopardy. But this was about criminal charges. Acting unprofessionally or violating department rules & regs is an issue for the Chief; not the DA or criminal courts.

[TMF]

I still don't see how these officers are justified in pulling their weapons if the alleged victim wasn't arrested or charged with anything. If they were justified to the point of not being charged with agg assault then that means the guy had committed some sort of threatening crime which should land him with charges, right?

[billyscott]

I noticed that this article stated that both officers pulled their guns. Just a point that I haven't heard yet.

Thing is, if you weren't there you don't know what really happened and never will.

Like a lot of incidents, even eyewitness testimony isn't reliable.

But . . . was there any video evidence? I'd love to see it if there was.

[DaveTN]

I still don't see how these officers are justified in pulling their weapons if the alleged victim wasn't arrested or charged with anything. If they were justified to the point of not being charged with agg assault then that means the guy had committed some sort of threatening crime which should land him with charges, right?

Not necessarily; not that they could prove in court. A person approaching my vehicle after some aggressive “Road Rage†type incident justifies me upholstering my weapon; I’m just not justified in using it yet. If he walks away and doesn’t take it any farther, it doesn’t necessarily mean that either of us has committed a crime. Or, depending on the circumstances either of us could be charged.

Also, as I said before it’s not a popular choice with DA’s or Police Chiefs to arrest people that have made false complaints against cops. Some people’s heads would explode if that happened. The more popular way of handling that is civil action by the Officers.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Another thing is this. The DA may not want to expend the time, energy and money to prosecute. Just because a crime is commiteed doesn't mean that are required to prosecute. Most DA's weight the cost of a trial versus the likely outcome when making their decision. And because these officers had a potential second line of punishment coming from their department maybe the DA decided to let the department dish out any punishment.

I know I have spoke the Knox county DA's office about a crime I had witnessed and that was ongoing. They agreed that what was happening was a crime but they also said they would not prosecute the offenders. Because the amount being stolen was so small it wasn't worth the effort.

With all that being said the officers did commit aggravated assault by presenting a weapon. I also believe they felt they were not justified in doing so at the time otherwise they would have made an arrest. Or they had something to hide. Officers do not draw their weapons and then just let it go.

Both parties acted irresponsibly but the officers where the ones who displayed their firearms, potentially escalating the situation.

Dolomite

[TMF]

Well somewhere out there exists facts about this case in the form of third party witnesses and perhaps video evidence which was eluded to in the initial report. Someone who would lose their cool and pull a gun isn't someone that should be wearing a badge. As I said all along, if I had pulled a weapon on someone in a road rage incident that I helped to escalate I'm sure I would be charged with a crime. I would also be risking the other person pulling their weapon in kind which would have deadly results. This is the problem I've brought up numerous times to highlight why this is not appropriate behavior by anyone, but shouldn't be something a LEO believes is okay.

We make jokes about some on the left who don't want lawful carry; those who cite fantastical stories about dodge city shootouts in the streets. But here is an example where someone pulled a weapon when he had helped escalate the situation; all involved were lucky that the other guy wasn't armed because it could have ended badly... who would be to blame then?

[DaveTN]

Well somewhere out there exists facts about this case in the form of third party witnesses and perhaps video evidence which was eluded to in the initial report. Someone who would lose their cool and pull a gun isn't someone that should be wearing a badge. As I said all along, if I had pulled a weapon on someone in a road rage incident that I helped to escalate I'm sure I would be charged with a crime. I would also be risking the other person pulling their weapon in kind which would have deadly results. This is the problem I've brought up numerous times to highlight why this is not appropriate behavior by anyone, but shouldn't be something a LEO believes is okay.

We make jokes about some on the left who don't want lawful carry; those who cite fantastical stories about dodge city shootouts in the streets. But here is an example where someone pulled a weapon when he had helped escalate the situation; all involved were lucky that the other guy wasn't armed because it could have ended badly... who would be to blame then?

I don’t believe it is okay for anyone to pull a gun when they aren’t justified, but the mere act of pulling a gun isn’t a crime unless it was done without provocation or justification. The DA has all the investigative reports, and witness statements. Based on those he called it justified; that’s good enough for me. I would hope he would decide the same way if it was me and I have nothing to indicate that he wouldn’t.

[Makiaveli]

I don’t believe it is okay for anyone to pull a gun when they aren’t justified, but the mere act of pulling a gun isn’t a crime unless it was done without provocation or justification. The DA has all the investigative reports, and witness statements. Based on those he called it justified; that’s good enough for me. I would hope he would decide the same way if it was me and I have nothing to indicate that he wouldn’t.

I still think it sounds fishy, but the officers could have been falsely accused. I've heard of officers getting disciplined because a citizen called in a complaint that the officer who just drove by gave me a dirty look and Hey Ofc. Smith weren't you on Somewhere Rd at 1300? Come here, I got some paperwork for you to sign.

[sparksjr]

If this were about an HCP'er pulling his weapon on an off duty officer, you can bet we would be reading about an entirely different outcome.

I dunno, maybe my thought process is impaired by my disdain for officers being able to run stop signs and speed just whenever the hell they want to

[hornett22]

as usual,law doesn't apply to Law Enforcement.

[DaveTN]

as usual,law doesn't apply to Law Enforcement.

Appears to me it did. The DA did “several interviews†and determined that the Officers “Acted on a reasonable basis to pull their guns†and “No criminal charges were justifiedâ€.

Does it bother you that a gun was pulled and no one was arrested, or that cops were accused of something and they didn’t have a public trial simply because they were cops?