Road Rage involving Oak Ridge officers in Knoxville

[TMF]

Lets say these weren’t cops, but where HCP holders. They are located and the one that pulled the gun says this guy jumped out of the truck, was yelling and approaching them in a threatening manner. He was scared and pulled his gun. The guy in the truck left, they thought it was over and decided not to report it. Should they be arrested? Are they guilty of anything other than not calling the Police to cover their azz?

Pulling a gun does not equal using deadly force. Pulling a gun without justification is aggravated assault. If a truck driver jumped out and started yelling at you do you think you should be arrested for a felony if you displayed a gun?

Yes. Not only do I think I should be arrested but I most certainly WOULD be. There is another side missing from this story, but unless that story involves the civilian threatening the officers with death or great bodily harm then they should be fired and charged with aggravated assault. A HCP holder would not be justified in pulling a weapon in a traffic dispute, let alone a dispute that THEY helped escalate.

Even if I was approached by an angry motorist in a similar situation WITHOUT my involvement in escalation, my weapon stays holstered until I think I need it; meaning, it ain't coming out to diffuse the situation, it's only coming out when I'm pretty certain if I don't pull it out I may be killed. I really doubt in a situation where TWO grown men (and trained LEOs) would think that ONE (unarmed) man presented enough of a threat for them to pull their weapons. We'll see, but I just don't think it's gonna pan out that way.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I’m not saying they are right; I have reserved judgment until we hear what they have to say. As I pointed out earlier they should have called it in.

I’m just pointing out that if this driver had been making these accusations against an HCP holder this discussion would be going very differently.

If I was an off duty cop I would not have done this. If he jumped out of his truck on me he would be in handcuffs when the Officers arrived, or I would be following him until marked units found us. And none of this would have been in the news.

We are arm chair quarterbacking a situation where a gun was pulled; that’s what we do here. I have my own wild ideas of what could have happened; but I’ll save them for later.

First off when is jumping out of a vehicle against the law? Especially when the officers did it first.

It was the officers that escalated the situation at every level from beginning to end. Even prior to the firearm being drawn they made several steps first that did escalate the situation. The officers tried to force their way in front of the victim first. Then the officers flipped the victim off first. Then the officers exited their vehicle first. And then the officer drew a firearm. And now it is the victim's fault because he did not let the offices out or because he returned a gesture or because exited his vehicle after the officers did.

If one group exits their vehicle and another party does the same then how can you say one needs to be handcuffed and one doesn't when both acted the same.

It is because a lot of officers feel they live by a different standard. I know this because I worked in LE for 1/3 of my life before leaving the industry. Officers will jade reports and bear witness in order to achieve the intended outcome as well as protect themselves. And they are not questioned because they are assumed to be better people, both morally and professionally, but honestly they are no better than anyone else.

We need to realize officers are just like the rest of us. They are not infallable and do make mistakes, lie, cheat, steal, and break the law. The difference is they have their fellow officers to do the same in order to cover for them.

I am not saying all officers are bad just like not all civillians are bad but a bad officer can get away with it more reasily than a bad civillian.

There is a reason why the officers are not making any statements. It is because they want to see if there is indeed a video. If no video is present their "song and dance" is going to be they felt threatened. And at that point the victim is going to be charged in order to divert blame.

Dolomite

[Dolomite_supafly]

And before anyone screams I am bashing LE I am not. I support my local LE as much as I can. I offer any help I can to them. They have equipment I have given them so they can be safe and effective at doing their job.

What I do bash is idiots or those who act like idiots. If you are acting like an idiot I will be critical of you and your actions regardless of what profession you hold. And because I have spent a fair amount in LE I have the adantage of seeing both sides of the fence so I know what should be acceptable and what should not. And if the victim's acount is accurate the officer's actions are not acceptable.

Dolomite

[jtmaze]

Maybe he just guessed.

Edit: Process of elimination. The sight of it scared him so he knew it wasn't a little 9mm. He didn't drop dead from just having it pointed at him so he knew it wasn't a .45. .40 was all that was left.

Lol that is too good. .355 is too small, .45 is too big, .40 is just right.

JTM🔫

Sent from my iPhone

[jtmaze]

I guess I said it wrong earlier when I said when I pull a weapon I am ready to shoot. I understand the concept of deterrence thur pointing a gun but wouldn't it be jut as easy to go to ready position with hand on weapon holster unsnapped and warn of the danger of the situation. Just because you point a gun at me I am ducking and defending not talking.

JTM🔫

Sent from my iPhone

[Guest 270win]

The problem is a few of these police have forgotten that they are PEACE OFFICERS (or used to be called at one time). They should be held to a higher standard, or at least were at one time. Respected members of the community that you could trust and kept the peace. Good people at one time felt as much trust with the PEACE OFFICER, fire fighter, and minister. You could go to any of these guys if you had a problem.

I don't have a problem with police being held to a higher standard than the general public. I do believe it takes a special person and is a calling for someone to be a real peace officer. If they can't act like a professional and disgrace the badge they should get another job. The sad thing is anything can be a LEO now because many depts don't care who they give a badge and gun to. This has created distrust in police in many areas because some police have forgotten how to be peace officers and serve and protect the public.

[diablo982]

Another fine example of why the "newspaper" needs to follow up on stories they "print".

I contacted the reporter who broke the original story. He started working on it Friday afternoon, and as I thought, the only person he spoke with was Mr. Estep. (The Knoxville PD references from his story are from a police report Estep made.) He doesn't know who exited the vehicle first, what the 911 caller observed, if the officers contacted anyone, etc. He also said he didn't get a response from Oak Ridge PD before printing the story. He did say he has been off work, assigned to other stories, etc, but another reporter would be following up. I told him there was a lot of interest in this story and hoped he would print any updates if they became available. The bottom line is you have Estep's account of what happened, nothing more, nothing less. Question it or accept it as gospel (or somewhere in-between.) I'll be keeping a close eye on the media to see if we can get any updates.

[dralarms]

Not sure of what happened with these guys but I will tell you I've had people jump out of their car and come at me, I just drive off. Even if I have to run a red light. May make them even madder but by the time they get back in the car and attempt to find me I'll be long gone. and no I won't jump out of a car and confrnt someone in that type of situation.

Rule 1. If someone flips you off, ignor it. They are showing their imaturity

rule 2. always leave yourself an out when driving, if you can't see the bumper in front of you then you can't get around it.

Rule 3. anytime there is an altercation, 911 is your friend even if you think it's over.

Rule 4. You are carrying a weapon, use better judgement that the next guy, it might save your butt by avoiding the whole situation.

Had a trucker chase me off the interstate once, not sure of what his problem was and didn't care, came up behind me flashing his lights, honking his horn and being a total jerk, I went up the ramp, he followed, so at the stop sign I paused just long enough for him to start slowing down good and a gunned the crap out of my truck, buy the time he was able to get through the intersection I was long gone. He might have just been having a bad day and I was theone he was going to take it out on but I spoiled his plan.

[DaveTN]

First off when is jumping out of a vehicle against the law? Especially when the officers did it first.

It was the officers that escalated the situation at every level from beginning to end. Even prior to the firearm being drawn they made several steps first that did escalate the situation. The officers tried to force their way in front of the victim first. Then the officers flipped the victim off first. Then the officers exited their vehicle first. And then the officer drew a firearm. And now it is the victim's fault because he did not let the offices out or because he returned a gesture or because exited his vehicle after the officers did.

You obviously have more information that the rest of us have. Are you talking to someone involved in the investigation?

I’m not blaming the guy that made the report; it’s possible everything he said is true.

I do find it unusual that it’s been five days and the witnesses haven’t been interviewed. Contrary to popular belief if one of the Officers on the department I was on had been accused of pulling a gun on someone without cause; our Chief would have made sure the witnesses were interviewed that day. This investigation should have been over by now.

Here’s another story, but it doesn’t add much other than to confirm they were Oak Ridge Officers and one has been placed on "modified" duty.

Oak Ridge police chief awaits KPD report on incident involving OR officers - Oak Ridge, TN - The Oak Ridger

[R_Bert]

Comment removed

Edited December 21, 2011 by R_Bert

[Guest uzzi]

Has anyone else noticed that this guy apparently got the greatest look at their gun in the world from it being pointed at him. Not only did he know it was a Glock but he knew it was a .40 Glock. I hope that one day I can not only the brand but the caliber of the gun by just having it being pointed at me.

That is a very common weapon among police departments. Not that big of a stretch.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Now that you have opened it you may as well go ahead and spill them beans.

Dolomite

Edited December 21, 2011 by Dolomite_supafly

[R_Bert]

Now that you have opened it you may as well go ahead and spill them beans.

Dolomite

PM sent

Edited December 21, 2011 by R_Bert

[Guest FHTMcrt]

PM sent

No fair!

[BrasilNuts]

Now that you have opened it you may as well go ahead and spill them beans.

Dolomite

Yes, please do.

[vontar]

Has anyone else noticed that this guy apparently got the greatest look at their gun in the world from it being pointed at him. Not only did he know it was a Glock but he knew it was a .40 Glock. I hope that one day I can not only the brand but the caliber of the gun by just having it being pointed at me.

But I hope I never have too identify a gun in that mannor.

[DaveTN]

Now it goes to the DA.

Police conclude probe into alleged road rage incident with ORPD officers » Knoxville News Sentinel

[Dolomite_supafly]

Now it goes to the DA.

Police conclude probe into alleged road rage incident with ORPD officers » Knoxville News Sentinel

Estep's statement:

I called Oak Ridge Police Department after it happened and they wouldn't give me the guys' names,

I have a serious issue with this. When a department will not release the names of officers it screams that some, not all, officers are trying to cover for other officers. We, as tax paying citizens, have a right to know if someone is an officer. The only exception to this is if officers are working undercover. It is public record and as a matter of fact ANYONE can walk into the Knox County Merit Councel's office and look at any officer's, past or present, personnel file. You do not have to have a reason because it is a matter of public record.

I also have issue when the Chief, Akagi, refuses to say whether the officers where on duty. This also leads me to believe the are preparing an "out" of the officer's conduct. A person not trying to hide anything should not have a problem saying yes or no they were on duty at the time.

I agree the ORPD should not be punishing or treatign the officers any differnt until they are found guilty. What I am afraid off is if the officers are found to have not committed any crimes the ORPD will drop everything. The problem with that is just because someone doesn't committ a crime doesn't mean they are not guilty of policy or regulations. Not sure if Oak Ridge has a Merit Councel but this should be presented to them for review, not just the police department.

Estep said Thursday he has not filed a complaint with ORPD about the incident. KPD investigators, Estep said, told him there was no need to file a complaint with ORPD because the alleged incident occurred in Knoxville.

This is not the case. Even though a crime or policy violation may have occurred in another jurisdiction the officer's administration need to be aware of the officer's actions. And Estep should file a formal complaint to ORPD through normal channels and then follow up. I kneo if I have an issue with an officer, regardless of where they work or where the incident took place their administration and/ or merit councel will be fully aware of what had occurred.

Officers take care of their own, that is a fact. And it depends on the individual officer how far they they will go to protect. Most will just not say anything against their fellow officer while others will take a more active role in protecting their fellow officers. It is already apparent that these officers have people within their own department trying to keep them out of trouble by refusing to answer questions that are a matter of public record.

Dolomite

[billyscott]

I read the article from the Knoxville News Sentinel. Here's the problem I have. Read the last two paragraphs of the article. "Knox County records show Estep was arrested last year on charges of public intoxication and disorderly conduct involving the driver of a vehicle on Cumberland Avenue.

Records show Estep "was overtly hostile, agitated and was screaming profanities" at the officer trying to investigate the crash between one vehicle and another one in which Estep was a passenger. The charges were dismissed upon payment of court costs, records show".

But the names of the officers involved have not been released. So Estep is being dragged through the dirt and the officers names won't be known till the case goes to the grand jury.

If Estep got the tag number, is there a way to look it up and see who the vehicle is registered to?

[Lumber_Jack]

.

If Estep got the tag number, is there a way to look it up and see who the vehicle is registered to?

Not unless you have access to DMV records. You would have to have an LE agency do the search

[diablo982]

I read the article from the Knoxville News Sentinel. Here's the problem I have. Read the last two paragraphs of the article. "Knox County records show Estep was arrested last year on charges of public intoxication and disorderly conduct involving the driver of a vehicle on Cumberland Avenue.

Records show Estep "was overtly hostile, agitated and was screaming profanities" at the officer trying to investigate the crash between one vehicle and another one in which Estep was a passenger. The charges were dismissed upon payment of court costs, records show".

But the names of the officers involved have not been released. So Estep is being dragged through the dirt and the officers names won't be known till the case goes to the grand jury.

If Estep got the tag number, is there a way to look it up and see who the vehicle is registered to?

Estep's name is being "dragged though the dirt" because he went to the media and got this story published. Kind of reminds me of idiot politicians who run for public office, then get exposed nationally for their extramarital affairs. If you don't want people to know your business, don't draw attention to yourself. The information about his criminal history is public record because he was charged. If the officers are charged, their names will be released to the public. If not, it's nobody's business.

[Guest bkelm18]

Estep's name is being "dragged though the dirt" because he went to the media and got this story published. Kind of reminds me of idiot politicians who run for public office, then get exposed nationally for their extramarital affairs. If you don't want people to know your business, don't draw attention to yourself. The information about his criminal history is public record because he was charged. If the officers are charged, their names will be released to the public. If not, it's nobody's business.

They are public servants paid with taxpayer money. It's everybody's business.

Edited December 23, 2011 by bkelm18

[Lumber_Jack]

They are public servants payed with taxpayer money. It's everybody's business.

+1

And just because they don't get charged doesn't mean they aren't guilty.

[diablo982]

They are public servants paid with taxpayer money. It's everybody's business.

These officers pay taxes too and cancel out your opinion. It seems the same faction who doesn't want the government violating their privacy has no problem violating these officer's privacy. If they are charged, post their names, if not, leave them alone.

[billyscott]

I didn't mean to imply that I assume the officers are guilty. It just seems unfair for his arrest record to be published, and we , the public, who will make up the grand jury, don't know a thing about the officers. Anyone has the right to go to the media and talk, it's up to the media to decide if it's a newsworthy story. I don't see how he "got this story published". Maybe the media found him. Who found out that the people involved were Oak Ridge PD? The investigating Knoxville PD officer. Estep's previous charges were dismissed, he could and should have had them expunged. I think the public, the taxpayer, the voter, has the right to know the whole story. And we probably never will. Unless there's video evidence!!!???