Road Rage involving Oak Ridge officers in Knoxville

[JayC]

On the other side of this story is the guy in the car jumped out of his car and approached the two police more than likely very angry. Did he make any jestures or actions that would seem threatening? Did he say anything threatening? People who jump out of cars and approach people when angry aren't the brightest light bulbs. It is assumed this guy has fought people on the side of the road before or fought people in public.

Still doesn't explain using the threat of deadly force, yet climbing back in their car and leaving the scene... remember the rule, first to call the police are seen as the victim, guess that doesn't apply when the other car is full of off duty police officers.

[Guest mcgyver210]

There are allot of good comments here but one is more of a fact than a comment.

If one of us lowly regular HCP holders did what is being said the LEOs did we would either be dead shot by the LEOs, In jail or out on bail waiting to be tried.

As it is it doesn't matter what happened because nothing that would have happen to a non LEO will ever happen to a LEO because in all reality LEOs are not held to the same standard in any public case I have ever read about.

This could have been very bad if the victim had also been carrying a weapon. The LEOs actions could have gotten innocent bystanders hurt or killed. I would be interested to see the outcome if there is video but either way we all know it wont be equal punishment if there was a crime. No matter which side is correct the victim wasn't charged & the LEOs pulled a weapon on an unarmed person over an road rage incident.

This is why my vehicles are equipped with video, If anyone ever pulls BS on me I should have a witness either way.

This incident & ones like it give good LEOs an Undeserved Black-eye in the general public's view.

Also it is a fact that LEOs account of situations are given more weight by the law as to what happen so when one is caught Lying they should be held to a higher standard IMO & many others also.

[Guest WyattEarp]

Being punched in the nose or pushed to the ground does not constitute bodily injury.

what does constitute bodily injury? If he punches you in the nose and it begins to bleed or your nose gets broken, is that bodily injury? definitely agreed being pushed to the ground does not constitute bodily injury.

but to be specific the law says "imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury", so what does the law define as "serious"? is a broken bone serious bodily injury? or are they talking about like beating a guy to where he's brain dead or suffers brain damage?

more of that grey area stuff, with too many questions raised, instead of answers answered.

[chances R]

My read of the story is that the LEO exited his vehicle and was approaching the civilian. Based on that clearly aggressive action, what if the civilian (me, you, other HCPs) then pulled a weapon......which would be clearly legit. Just looking at how this could have gone terribly wrong for all involved. IMO, the civilian could have used his weapon, and the other LEO, which as I understand pulled his weapon anyway.....................well you get my drift.

[Guest pfries]

I agree, I'm sure his actions helped to escalate the situation, but that doesn't warrant pulling a weapon on him. If someone gets out of their car to yell at you in traffic would you pull your weapon out?

I agree, and no my weapon would not be out, I would not get out of the car that is asking to escalate the situation, I would probably be on the “Hello 911 what’s your emergency” call and my weapon would be in a ready position, discreetly.

[BrasilNuts]

On the other side of this story is the guy in the car jumped out of his car and approached the two police more than likely very angry. Did he make any jestures or actions that would seem threatening? Did he say anything threatening? People who jump out of cars and approach people when angry aren't the brightest light bulbs.

You make a lot of assumptions in this post.

No where does it say he approached their car.

It does say... "He said the men jumped out of their car near the traffic light. He did the same."

If I was in a car that was blocked in (The report does not mention the situation of Esteps vehicle) and had two guys exiting a vehicle and coming at me I would get out and face them as well. I'm not going to sit there and give them an advantage over me by trapping myself in my vehicle. Some may say that this would only escalate the situation, but I believe that the officers forced the situation by exiting first.

It is assumed this guy has fought people on the side of the road before or fought people in public.

Why is it assumed?

"I didn't let them cut me off."

"I've been sucker-punched before,"

Is it because of those two statements? I've not let people out of a parking lot before does that make me a bad tempered person looking for trouble? There are two times in my life that I can think of right off hand where I was almost sucker punched. Does that mean I have fought people on the side of the road or in public?

Mr. Estep didn't choose his words very wisely during his interview with the reporter and it has skewed the view of many people.

I believe Mr. Estep would be viewed in a different light if this had been the first report everyone had seen.

Off-duty Oak Ridge officers accused of threatening man - Oak Ridge, TN - The Oak Ridger

OAK RIDGE, Tenn. —

Knoxville police are reportedly checking into a man's claim that two off-duty Oak Ridge police officers threatened him during what may have been a road rage incident last week.

The Knoxville News-Sentinel reported Saturday that Brock Estep, 31, told Knoxville police he was driving north on Weisgarber Road near the corner of Papermill Drive around 12:45 p.m. Thursday, when two men in a Toyota Avalon tried to pull in front of him.

The two men in a greenish-gray car were pulling out from the Waffle House, Estep reportedly said, and he didn't let them "cut him off."

He told police the men jumped out of their car at the traffic light, and he jumped out also. He said the car's passenger pointed a 40-caliber Glock pistol at his face, the newspaper reported. The driver told him they were police officers.

Estep said he jumped back in his car and drove off, then followed the men and wrote down their license plate number as he called E-911.

Records indicate a witness also called dispatchers. The Oak Ridge officers were not identified in the story.

The newspaper reported that Knoxville officer Wallace Armstrong wrote in his report that a check confirmed the suspects were off-duty Oak Ridge police officers. He also said Waffle House employees said surveillance cameras may have recorded the incident.

No charges have been filed and Estep said he intends to prosecute, the newspaper reported.

The Oak Ridger attempted to reach Chief Jim Akagi on Saturday and Sunday for comment, and several other officials in the department on Sunday afternoon. The shift lieutenant on duty Sunday afternoon said he knew nothing about the alleged incident other than what had been reported in the newspaper

Edited December 20, 2011 by BrasilNuts

[Guest WyattEarp]

I wonder how Estep knew it was a .40 caliber handgun? I'm sure a glock is easily recognizable by most any person, but with things happening that fast, would you be able to easily identify what caliber of gun it was? I'm sure the trained eye might recognize the caliber, and the article didn't specify if Estep was an HCP holder or not, so I don't know his firearms background, but just something that stuck out to me.

[BrasilNuts]

I wonder how Estep knew it was a .40 caliber handgun? I'm sure a glock is easily recognizable by most any person, but with things happening that fast, would you be able to easily identify what caliber of gun it was? I'm sure the trained eye might recognize the caliber, and the article didn't specify if Estep was an HCP holder or not, so I don't know his firearms background, but just something that stuck out to me.

Maybe he just guessed.

Edit: Process of elimination. The sight of it scared him so he knew it wasn't a little 9mm. He didn't drop dead from just having it pointed at him so he knew it wasn't a .45. .40 was all that was left.

Edited December 20, 2011 by BrasilNuts

[chances R]

Or he just assumed that most police carry 40s, as well as Glocks. To me it makes no difference if he is correct on make or caliber.....it does not change the fact that a gun was pulled, .22 or bazooka.

[bigwakes]

I wonder how Estep knew it was a .40 caliber handgun? I'm sure a glock is easily recognizable by most any person, but with things happening that fast, would you be able to easily identify what caliber of gun it was? I'm sure the trained eye might recognize the caliber, and the article didn't specify if Estep was an HCP holder or not, so I don't know his firearms background, but just something that stuck out to me.

I'm certain it was an assumption made after he found out he was dealing with cops. It's not too far of a leap to see a man holding a Glock, find out he is a cop and then assume it to be the caliber most other officers carry.

I have had Glocks for the last ten years and have 4 at the moment in .40 and 9mm and have to read the caliber on the side before inserting a mag into the weapon. I have figured out on a few occasions that a .40 will fire the first 9mm out of a mag, but the case expands to the size of a .40 chamber, won't eject, and nearly sounds like a squib. (don't ask me how I know that) now all my 9mm Glock mags have blue base plates to prevent the error again.

[bigwakes]

what does constitute bodily injury? If he punches you in the nose and it begins to bleed or your nose gets broken, is that bodily injury? definitely agreed being pushed to the ground does not constitute bodily injury.

but to be specific the law says "imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury", so what does the law define as "serious"? is a broken bone serious bodily injury? or are they talking about like beating a guy to where he's brain dead or suffers brain damage?

more of that grey area stuff, with too many questions raised, instead of answers answered.

I had an opportunity to ask an assistant district attorney this very question. He squirmed a little but never really gave me a straight answer. He did say in his view a broken arm or concusion could be considered bodily harm, but the rest would need to be addressed case by case. He did say that if the bad guy made an attempt to get my weapon it was legal to use deadly force to prevent the BG from taking it. He also said that in his eyes a carjacking was justified in deadly force because the unarmed guy would then be armed with your vehicle and it was assumed to be a violent situation to begin with. He also said that it's very unlikely he would take someone to trial that he truly believed was using a weapon to stop or prevent a crime. He did caution me that not all DA's see eye to eye on that one.

This conversation took place at the Williamson County free firearms training that they offer a few times a year. The last day the DA or his assistant comes in to explain TN law and answer questions.

[monkeylizard]

so what does the law define as "serious"?

TCA 39-11-106(a)(34) "Serious bodily injury" means bodily injury that involves:

(A) A substantial risk of death;

( Protracted unconsciousness;

© Extreme physical pain;

(D) Protracted or obvious disfigurement;

(E) Protracted loss or substantial impairment of a function of a bodily member, organ or mental faculty; or

(F) A broken bone of a child who is eight (8) years of age or less;

ETA: Forgot the (a) in the cite....but I still beat Fallguy.

Edited December 20, 2011 by monkeylizard

[Fallguy]

what does constitute bodily injury? If he punches you in the nose and it begins to bleed or your nose gets broken, is that bodily injury? definitely agreed being pushed to the ground does not constitute bodily injury.

but to be specific the law says "imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury", so what does the law define as "serious"? is a broken bone serious bodily injury? or are they talking about like beating a guy to where he's brain dead or suffers brain damage?

more of that grey area stuff, with too many questions raised, instead of answers answered.

39-11-106(a)(34) defines serious bodily injury as that involves:

(A) A substantial risk of death;

( Protracted unconsciousness;

© Extreme physical pain;

(D) Protracted or obvious disfigurement;

(E) Protracted loss or substantial impairment of a function of a bodily member, organ or mental faculty; or

(F) A broken bone of a child who is eight (8) years of age or less;

[BrasilNuts]

39-11-106(a)(34) defines serious bodily injury as that involves:

(A) A substantial risk of death;

( Protracted unconsciousness;

© Extreme physical pain;

(D) Protracted or obvious disfigurement;

(E) Protracted loss or substantial impairment of a function of a bodily member, organ or mental faculty; or

(F) A broken bone of a child who is eight (8) years of age or less;

The wording in that law really stinks.

A punch to my face may leave me with a black eye or it may leave me with ( © (D) or (E).

[Guest 270win]

Staying inside a vehicle gives you more protection than being out in the open and confronting someone. You have glass and metal protecting you by being inside your car with the doors locked.

You want to do the best you can and escape if possible or be as far away from a trouble maker as you can to try to be in the right. Yes I know that TN does not require you to retreat but walking up to a potential attacker in public to confront VS staying inside a locked vehicle does not seem wise. By doing all you can to avoid a conflict and staying in the vehicle you will look more in the right if some fool walks up to your vehicle with you in it and tries to say get in the car with force. You can quietly have your gun in your hand and stay in the car.

[chances R]

The wording in that law really stinks.

A punch to my face may leave me with a black eye or it may leave me with ( © (D) or (E).

Exactly, and the older I get the more likely that is to happen.

[DaveTN]

Lets say these weren’t cops, but where HCP holders. They are located and the one that pulled the gun says this guy jumped out of the truck, was yelling and approaching them in a threatening manner. He was scared and pulled his gun. The guy in the truck left, they thought it was over and decided not to report it. Should they be arrested? Are they guilty of anything other than not calling the Police to cover their azz?

Pulling a gun does not equal using deadly force. Pulling a gun without justification is aggravated assault. If a truck driver jumped out and started yelling at you do you think you should be arrested for a felony if you displayed a gun?

[JayC]

Pulling a firearm and pointing it at somebody is a threat of deadly force under TN law, and you may only legally threaten deadly force when you are authorized under the law to use deadly force. There is no exemption to that for law enforcement officers - they have a couple of cases where they can use deadly force where an average citizen can not, but none of those exceptions seem to apply here.

Also, as told many times, the first person to call is considered to be the victim, HCPer should always call the police and stay put if safe and wait for the responding police officer... I seem to recall you giving that exact advice a number of times on these very forums.

Still doesn't explain why as a police officer would feel threatened with seriously bodily injury or death (otherwise they legally can not pull their weapon) would allow the person guilty of a fairly serious crime get back in their car and drive off, yet not stick around and wait for uniform officers to respond.

Unless you're claiming they were scared so they put their weapons down, climbed back in their car and ran away from the scary man with no weapon whom they were holding at gun point, 2 vs 1?

Lets say these weren’t cops, but where HCP holders. They are located and the one that pulled the gun says this guy jumped out of the truck, was yelling and approaching them in a threatening manner. He was scared and pulled his gun. The guy in the truck left, they thought it was over and decided not to report it. Should they be arrested? Are they guilty of anything other than not calling the Police to cover their azz?

Pulling a gun does not equal using deadly force. Pulling a gun without justification is aggravated assault. If a truck driver jumped out and started yelling at you do you think you should be arrested for a felony if you displayed a gun?

[diablo982]

DaveTN- That's good food for thought. I think you and I both know the answer to this one: It depends. I know several posters have indicated that as a HCP they would be locked up on the spot. I think one poster indicated if you display your weapon, you need to shoot??? otherwise is stays holstered. If you can reasonably articulate a threat of serious bodily harm, drawing your weapon in self-defense is not illegal. The cops will not necessarily lock you up on the spot if your gun is pointed at someone. But as a HCP, you better be prepared to explain your actions. There is no hard and fast rule to say when you crossed the line; it falls back on common sense. Unfortunately not everyone has common sense.

[Guest 270win]

This is why I like pocket carry. You can have a handgun in your coat or pants pocket, have your hand on it, and no one knows.

[Guest mcgyver210]

Lets say these weren’t cops, but where HCP holders. They are located and the one that pulled the gun says this guy jumped out of the truck, was yelling and approaching them in a threatening manner. He was scared and pulled his gun. The guy in the truck left, they thought it was over and decided not to report it. Should they be arrested? Are they guilty of anything other than not calling the Police to cover their azz?

Pulling a gun does not equal using deadly force. Pulling a gun without justification is aggravated assault. If a truck driver jumped out and started yelling at you do you think you should be arrested for a felony if you displayed a gun?

Dave I usually can agree with your post but this one is IMO not your best one. Sounds more like the same ole same ole. We should never expect a LEO to be held to a higher standard or even the same equal standard even though they are supposed to be better trained & be able to handle stressful situations better, oh & lets not for get they are supposed to be trust-able since their word is given more weight at least until a video surfaces in most cases.

I'm not a cop but if I was to do something unprofessional, Irresponsible or knowingly wrong in my industry I would most likely be held to a higher standard than a untrained client. This isn't based on personal experience but is based on what my mentor has told me in the past about his expert witness appearances.

Again I personally believe there are many more GOOD LEOs than bad ones but the system protects the bad ones & in many cases the GOOD Leos look the other way to protect their own.

Bad LEOs that are given biased & unequal treatment will always be a BLACK-EYE for the GOOD LEOs. Same goes for the growing mistrust in our government agencies that in the name of terrorism get away with blatant abuses.

[DaveTN]

Dave I usually can agree with your post but this one is IMO not your best one. Sounds more like the same ole same ole. We should never expect a LEO to be held to a higher standard or even the same equal standard even though they are supposed to be better trained & be able to handle stressful situations better, oh & lets not for get they are supposed to be trust-able since their word is given more weight at least until a video surfaces in most cases.

I'm not a cop but if I was to do something unprofessional, Irresponsible or knowingly wrong in my industry I would most likely be held to a higher standard than a untrained client. This isn't based on personal experience but is based on what my mentor has told me in the past about his expert witness appearances.

Again I personally believe there are many more GOOD LEOs than bad ones but the system protects the bad ones & in many cases the GOOD Leos look the other way to protect their own.

Bad LEOs that are given biased & unequal treatment will always be a BLACK-EYE for the GOOD LEOs. Same goes for the growing mistrust in our government agencies that in the name of terrorism get away with blatant abuses.

I’m not saying they are right; I have reserved judgment until we hear what they have to say. As I pointed out earlier they should have called it in.

I’m just pointing out that if this driver had been making these accusations against an HCP holder this discussion would be going very differently.

If I was an off duty cop I would not have done this. If he jumped out of his truck on me he would be in handcuffs when the Officers arrived, or I would be following him until marked units found us. And none of this would have been in the news.

We are arm chair quarterbacking a situation where a gun was pulled; that’s what we do here. I have my own wild ideas of what could have happened; but I’ll save them for later.

[Guest mcgyver210]

I’m not saying they are right; I have reserved judgment until we hear what they have to say. As I pointed out earlier they should have called it in.

I’m just pointing out that if this driver had been making these accusations against an HCP holder this discussion would be going very differently.

If I was an off duty cop I would not have done this. If he jumped out of his truck on me he would be in handcuffs when the Officers arrived, or I would be following him until marked units found us. And none of this would have been in the news.

We are arm chair quarterbacking a situation where a gun was pulled; that’s what we do here. I have my own wild ideas of what could have happened; but I’ll save them for later.

OK but based on the Arm Chair Version the LEOs are the ones in the wrong so that means you would be the one in the wrong so you just said what should have happened. Both LEOs should have been arrested & charged. The story was that the two armed assailants got out of their vehicles first the way I read it but that was a few hours ago so I could be mistaken.

As for Arm Chair QuarterBacking it seems that is what the Government starts out with in most cases anyway. They also have made it where No one in their right mind would ever trust a LEO while being investigated since they can't Lie even by accident but the LEOs will Lie to get what ever they want & it is acceptable by today's standards for them to be Professional liars always trusted to tell the truth officially.

Yes I also have some ideas on what may have happened.

1. The Car leaving the Waffle House tried to push their way in front of the Victim of the Road Rage Assault. Just so happens the Assailants in this case may have been used to people moving out of their way & didn't like it when they didn't get their way. Now Im sure everyone of us has been in a situation where someone just tried to pull in front of us rudely because they felt entitled same as someone that is trying to get across 3 or more lanes of traffic with a left turn across two solid lines which usually means no left turns.

2. I can also guess it is possible to reverse the aggressive side of this but if the basic facts are correct the car trying to get out of Waffle House was the cause of the incident.

Edited December 21, 2011 by mcgyver210

[Guest mcgyver210]

Ok as an Arm Chair QB what is the reason for the victim to jump out after the car being pushy didn't get in front of him? Again there is hardly a day goes by I don't have this happen to me when driving.

Also what legitimate reason was there for the aggressors to exit their car accept to escalate the situation that could have just been left alone as most of us Amateurs do everyday. Especially with their professional background & training being of the nature that they should know how not to escalate the situation at least as well as us Amateurs.

[Garufa]

Another fine example of why the "newspaper" needs to follow up on stories they "print".