Road Rage involving Oak Ridge officers in Knoxville

[Guest bkelm18]

Wow. I've only had one law infringing interaction with ORPD and it was a ticket for speeding. The guy was nice enough to tell me that he'd let me out of it if I showed up for court but I overslept and missed it and when I called to reschedule the court date, I was informed (btw...please remember this statement in case you ever get a ticket in OR) that I had until 4:30pm to pay the ticket or they'd put a warrant out for my arrest because if you're not there in court, the judge automatically finds in their favor since there's no contestant. Well, by god, I drove to OR to pay that bloody ticket that day.

If you fail to show up for court, they don't like that. That's not Oak Ridge, that's anywhere.

Edited December 19, 2011 by bkelm18

[Guest bkelm18]

I've lived in OR for a very long time and have had more interactions with the ORPD than I can count on all of my hands, toes and... well, more than 21 times.

I'll have to admit of all of those times only once was it unprofessional and that was when I was in High school.

I'm really interested to hear the other side of this story and if there is any surveillance footage.

So far it doesn't look good for the officers involved.

I'm interested in how the new Chief is going to handle it.

[Guest 270win]

It must be nice to be able to carry a gun wherever you want, act like a fool in public, threaten with a weapon, and not end up right then in jail for it to be processed if this story is true. These guys sound like some cops in the Memphis area that have gotten in trouble. I thought this was isolated to Memphis, I guess it is everywhere.

[JayC]

There is no four way stop at weisgarber and papermill. There is not on anywhere near that intersection.

I have no faith in Estep's version of what happened.

Dumb question, but how exactly did this guy know the two people in front of him were police officers and carrying guns in there wasn't an incident similar to the one he described?

How exactly do 2 off duty police officers end up in a situation where the threat of deadly force is authorized, but the don't make an arrest, nor do they call it in and wait around for uniform officers to respond?

Estep's version maybe wrong, but I just don't see how an incident unfolds where the officers involved weren't in the wrong. So help me out here.

[diablo982]

Dumb question, but how exactly did this guy know the two people in front of him were police officers and carrying guns in there wasn't an incident similar to the one he described?

How exactly do 2 off duty police officers end up in a situation where the threat of deadly force is authorized, but the don't make an arrest, nor do they call it in and wait around for uniform officers to respond?

Estep's version maybe wrong, but I just don't see how an incident unfolds where the officers involved weren't in the wrong. So help me out here.

I wasn't there but know how it could've happened where the officers weren't necessarily wrong. What if Estep is the one acting aggresively, giving the finger, following the officers to the stop light, etc. He (Estep) gets out of the car first and starts to approach the officer's car. The officers have cars in front of them at the stop light so driving away is not an option. If this guy has been acting aggressively, jumps out of his car and approaches in a pissed-off demeanor could they be in fear of bodily harm? Anybody know how big Estep is? How about the size of the officers? Police are trained to get out of their cars if danger is approaching (don't let your car be your coffin.) so if they couldn't drive away, they were absolutely tactically right to get out of their car. And depending on Estep's size, demeanor, location of his hands, etc. they could have every reason to fear for their safety. Since they are off-duty, they probably didn't have a baton, pepper spray, tazer to fall back on. It was either a fist-fight or repel the attack by displaying a gun.

Also, where in the story does it say the officers didn't report the incident to law enforcement? They didn't stick around, but chose to diffuse the situation by driving away once they got Estep back in his car. They could have driven down the road (apparently with Estep in hot pursit after knowing they were armed) and called Knoxville PD later. Maybe that's how Knoxville PD confirmed they were Oak Ridge officers. More over, since they are being accused of a crime, the officers would be well advised to make no statement until they have lawyers. (See the previous thread about talking to the cops after a SD shooting.)

These officers could be absolutely wrong, made an unprovoked attack on an innocent person, and deserve to lose their jobs, prosecuted, etc. But until I know all the facts, I will reserve judgement. Based on what I've seen of Estep's account, I'm not giving too much weight to his side of the story.

[Lumber_Jack]

It specifically said he followed them to report the license plate. It also said they declared they were officers when exiting the car with weapon drawn.

Now I'm not saying Estep didn't exit the car first and act aggressive, bit still believable that the cops were to blame as well.

[Guest WyattEarp]

Dumb question, but how exactly did this guy know the two people in front of him were police officers and carrying guns in there wasn't an incident similar to the one he described?

How exactly do 2 off duty police officers end up in a situation where the threat of deadly force is authorized, but the don't make an arrest, nor do they call it in and wait around for uniform officers to respond?

Estep's version maybe wrong, but I just don't see how an incident unfolds where the officers involved weren't in the wrong. So help me out here.

sounds to me like Estep has the "I'm a barney bad ass syndrome". he should be charged with some sort of crime, inciting the incident or something.

"Estep told police the men flipped him off. He gave the gesture back.

He said the men jumped out of their car near the traffic light. He did the same.

"I've been sucker-punched before," Estep said. "When I got out of the car, the passenger pointed a gun at my face. The driver told me they were police officers."

this guy isn't too bright. 2 guys jump out of a car, and you don't know who they are, you don't if they're armed, you're alone and by yourself, and you're trying to be He-Man Macho Boy and go show them right? and you've been sucker punched before? Why would you jump out? Why not roll up the windows, lock the doors, and drive away? and call the police while you're driving away.

I'm sorry, but if I see 2 guys jumping out of a car and approaching me, I'm running the hell away! Not jumping out of my car to confront them.

but like they say, you can't fix stupid.

men and their testosterone...good grief.

[DaveTN]

I wasn't there but know how it could've happened where the officers weren't necessarily wrong. What if Estep is the one acting aggresively, giving the finger, following the officers to the stop light, etc. He (Estep) gets out of the car first and starts to approach the officer's car. The officers have cars in front of them at the stop light so driving away is not an option. If this guy has been acting aggressively, jumps out of his car and approaches in a pissed-off demeanor could they be in fear of bodily harm? Anybody know how big Estep is? How about the size of the officers? Police are trained to get out of their cars if danger is approaching (don't let your car be your coffin.) so if they couldn't drive away, they were absolutely tactically right to get out of their car. And depending on Estep's size, demeanor, location of his hands, etc. they could have every reason to fear for their safety. Since they are off-duty, they probably didn't have a baton, pepper spray, tazer to fall back on. It was either a fist-fight or repel the attack by displaying a gun.

Also, where in the story does it say the officers didn't report the incident to law enforcement? They didn't stick around, but chose to diffuse the situation by driving away once they got Estep back in his car. They could have driven down the road (apparently with Estep in hot pursit after knowing they were armed) and called Knoxville PD later. Maybe that's how Knoxville PD confirmed they were Oak Ridge officers. More over, since they are being accused of a crime, the officers would be well advised to make no statement until they have lawyers. (See the previous thread about talking to the cops after a SD shooting.)

These officers could be absolutely wrong, made an unprovoked attack on an innocent person, and deserve to lose their jobs, prosecuted, etc. But until I know all the facts, I will reserve judgement. Based on what I've seen of Estep's account, I'm not giving too much weight to his side of the story.

I’m also giving the Officers the benefit of the doubt because we only have one side of the story.

But Officers are also trained that if they have to pull a gun on someone off duty; they report it immediately. If they did that, this may be a non-issue.

I can’t picture myself pulling a gun on someone off duty and not taking them into custody right then.

[hornett22]

I think he got lucky. I don't think many courts would give you a chance like that.

[wcsc12]

If you fail to show up for court, they don't like that. That's not Oak Ridge, that's anywhere.

Ah see I only have experience in Knox County and I missed the first date and rescheduled and made the 2nd and it was no big deal. It was just I didn't put it on the calendar and it's rather hard to remember a date 2 months out.

[TMF]

If any of us had reacted in that manner we'd be enjoying the view from the inside of a jail cell. LEOs should be held to a higher standard than a HCP holder. We don't know all the facts of the case, but we know enough to make safe assumptions.

Fact: They pulled their weapons (witnessed by others).

Fact: The officers failed to report it.

Fact: The civilian involved her was not arrested or detained.

Everything else in this case may be subject to their respective side of the story. If they pulled their weapons they should have been in fear for their lives; if the civilian here was presenting a reasonable threat then he should have been arrested, or at a minimum, the off duty officers should have called it in so that an on-duty officer could make the arrest. The fact that none of this happened suggests that the individual was not presenting a threat.

What if this guy was armed and pulled his weapon? I can tell you, if some off duty officer gets pissed at how I drive and ends up pulling a weapon on me, he is getting shot. Maybe in this case there was some degree of provokation from the civilian, however, I honk my horn if someone is about to do something unsafe such as pull out in front of me. If that motorist, in turn, decides to follow me to a stoplight and pull a weapon I am going to assume he intends to use it, therefore justifying my use of deadly force. The problem here is that if such a situation occurred, the person who shot the off duty LEO would be branded a cop killer and would most likely spend the rest of his life in jail.

There better be some charges here and not some civil suit that gets settled out of court.

[hornett22]

If any of us had reacted in that manner we'd be enjoying the view from the inside of a jail cell. LEOs should be held to a higher standard than a HCP holder. We don't know all the facts of the case, but we know enough to make safe assumptions.

Fact: They pulled their weapons (witnessed by others).

Fact: The officers failed to report it.

Fact: The civilian involved her was not arrested or detained.

Everything else in this case may be subject to their respective side of the story. If they pulled their weapons they should have been in fear for their lives; if the civilian here was presenting a reasonable threat then he should have been arrested, or at a minimum, the off duty officers should have called it in so that an on-duty officer could make the arrest. The fact that none of this happened suggests that the individual was not presenting a threat.

What if this guy was armed and pulled his weapon? I can tell you, if some off duty officer gets pissed at how I drive and ends up pulling a weapon on me, he is getting shot. Maybe in this case there was some degree of provokation from the civilian, however, I honk my horn if someone is about to do something unsafe such as pull out in front of me. If that motorist, in turn, decides to follow me to a stoplight and pull a weapon I am going to assume he intends to use it, therefore justifying my use of deadly force. The problem here is that if such a situation occurred, the person who shot the off duty LEO would be branded a cop killer and would most likely spend the rest of his life in jail.

There better be some charges here and not some civil suit that gets settled out of court.

Couldn't have said it better!

[diablo982]

If any of us had reacted in that manner we'd be enjoying the view from the inside of a jail cell. LEOs should be held to a higher standard than a HCP holder. We don't know all the facts of the case, but we know enough to make safe assumptions.

Fact: They pulled their weapons (witnessed by others).

Fact: The officers failed to report it.

Fact: The civilian involved her was not arrested or detained.

Everything else in this case may be subject to their respective side of the story. If they pulled their weapons they should have been in fear for their lives; if the civilian here was presenting a reasonable threat then he should have been arrested, or at a minimum, the off duty officers should have called it in so that an on-duty officer could make the arrest. The fact that none of this happened suggests that the individual was not presenting a threat.

Where in the story does it say the officers didn't report it?

How do you detain someone when you are off-duty, outside your jurisdiction and probably don't have handcuffs? Keep pointing your gun at them and try to prone them out? What if they don't prone out and come at you, then what? If I'm off-duty, I'm only using my weapon to protect myself or my family. I'm either shooting someone or brandishing it to get the threat away from me. Just like a HCP holder. In this case, they got the threat away from them. NOBODY was shot and the incident de-esclated without anybody getting hurt. If it were me, I'd head to the nearest police station if I knew where it was and make a report. Maybe the Oak Ridge officers did that. Again, there is nothing in the story which says they didn't report it.

[Mike.357]

Three sides to most every story. What actually happened will be interesting.

[JayC]

I'm sorry, I can see everything going down as you described until you get to the point where they just got in their cars and drove off.

If they were threatened with serious bodily injury or death, then Estep assaulted them. Here you have an apparently unstable man (in your possible theory) that they stop at gun point... Yet they choose to get back in their car and leave? That just doesn't jive in my book.

In your theory you have a man who has committed a serious misdemeanor or felony, being held at gun point by 2 off duty officers, and they don't arrest him, or detain him and call for uniforms to come to the scene? They turn their backs to this aggressive man who was just a minute before threatening them with serious bodily injury get back in their car and drive off?

That just does not pass the smell test in my book.

I wasn't there but know how it could've happened where the officers weren't necessarily wrong. What if Estep is the one acting aggresively, giving the finger, following the officers to the stop light, etc. He (Estep) gets out of the car first and starts to approach the officer's car. The officers have cars in front of them at the stop light so driving away is not an option. If this guy has been acting aggressively, jumps out of his car and approaches in a pissed-off demeanor could they be in fear of bodily harm? Anybody know how big Estep is? How about the size of the officers? Police are trained to get out of their cars if danger is approaching (don't let your car be your coffin.) so if they couldn't drive away, they were absolutely tactically right to get out of their car. And depending on Estep's size, demeanor, location of his hands, etc. they could have every reason to fear for their safety. Since they are off-duty, they probably didn't have a baton, pepper spray, tazer to fall back on. It was either a fist-fight or repel the attack by displaying a gun.

Also, where in the story does it say the officers didn't report the incident to law enforcement? They didn't stick around, but chose to diffuse the situation by driving away once they got Estep back in his car. They could have driven down the road (apparently with Estep in hot pursit after knowing they were armed) and called Knoxville PD later. Maybe that's how Knoxville PD confirmed they were Oak Ridge officers. More over, since they are being accused of a crime, the officers would be well advised to make no statement until they have lawyers. (See the previous thread about talking to the cops after a SD shooting.)

These officers could be absolutely wrong, made an unprovoked attack on an innocent person, and deserve to lose their jobs, prosecuted, etc. But until I know all the facts, I will reserve judgement. Based on what I've seen of Estep's account, I'm not giving too much weight to his side of the story.

[jtmaze]

I agree we haven't heard the whole story and this is truly a case of all parties in the wrong, but if I did the same thing as these officers and brandished my weapon to deter a threat I would be in jail for agg assault. Do we agree. The way I understand if I feel threatened enough to unholster my weapon I need to use it. Period.

JTM🔫

Sent from my iPhone

[bigwakes]

Where in the story does it say the officers didn't report it?

How do you detain someone when you are off-duty, outside your jurisdiction and probably don't have handcuffs? Keep pointing your gun at them and try to prone them out? What if they don't prone out and come at you, then what? If I'm off-duty, I'm only using my weapon to protect myself or my family. I'm either shooting someone or brandishing it to get the threat away from me. Just like a HCP holder. In this case, they got the threat away from them. NOBODY was shot and the incident de-esclated without anybody getting hurt. If it were me, I'd head to the nearest police station if I knew where it was and make a report. Maybe the Oak Ridge officers did that. Again, there is nothing in the story which says they didn't report it.

It also doesn't say they Flew to the moon, so we can assume they did not. If they reported it they would have mentioned it. There was a witness that also called 911 and the story did not say she had a conflicting story. Looks like the cops "acted stupidly" to quote "The Great One." I also don't see Estes suing the PD if he was in the wrong. I hope he gets a bunch of money and some irresponsible cops find another job. There are very few reasons to pull a weapon on an unarmed man and I'm not sure that you could ever claim fear for great bodily harm in doing so.

[TMF]

Where in the story does it say the officers didn't report it?How do you detain someone when you are off-duty, outside your jurisdiction and probably don't have handcuffs? Keep pointing your gun at them and try to prone them out? What if they don't prone out and come at you, then what? If I'm off-duty, I'm only using my weapon to protect myself or my family. I'm either shooting someone or brandishing it to get the threat away from me. Just like a HCP holder. In this case, they got the threat away from them. NOBODY was shot and the incident de-esclated without anybody getting hurt. If it were me, I'd head to the nearest police station if I knew where it was and make a report. Maybe the Oak Ridge officers did that. Again, there is nothing in the story which says they didn't report it.

We will see. It didn't sound to me like they were protecting any innocents. Two (armed) grown men versus one unarmed man? I don't care how he was acting, pulling your weapon only occurs when you are in reasonable fear for your life or serious injury... I say again, two grown men versus one. LEOs are not above the law. Just like I said before, if this was any of us non-LEOs we would be in jail.The only thing that could excuse the actions of these LEOs would be if this guy was presenting a threat. That remains to be seen. Maybe he said "I'm gonna kill you" to the officers. That would certainly warrant pulling a weapon in my book. Maybe something like that happened. Based on the preliminary facts though, it doesn't look like the facts are gonna shake out that way. Edited December 20, 2011 by TMF 18B

[bigwakes]

We will see. It didn't sound to me like they were protecting any innocents. Two (armed) grown men versus one unarmed man? I don't care how he was acting, pulling your weapon only occurs when you are in reasonable fear for your life or serious injury... I say again, two grown men versus one. LEOs are not above the law. Just like I said before, if this was any of us non-LEOs we would be in jail.The only thing that could excuse the actions of these LEOs would be if this guy was presenting a threat. That remains to be seen. Maybe he said "I'm gonna kill you" to the officers. That would certainly warrant pulling a weapon in my book. Maybe something like that happened. Based on the preliminary facts though, it doesn't look like the facts are gonna shake out that way.

Maybe in your book, but I'm pretty sure in the book the District Attorney will reference it might say "Sticks and stones may break my bones." A verbal threat does not constitute fear for GREAT BODILY HARM!

[Guest bkelm18]

Maybe in your book, but I'm pretty sure in the book the District Attorney will reference it might say "Sticks and stones may break my bones." A verbal threat does not constitute fear for GREAT BODILY HARM!

If someone who is clearly agitated with me for whatever reason comes at me while proclaiming "I'm going to kill you!", I'm drawing my weapon. How do I know if he's not concealing a knife or firearm? I'm certainly not going to wait for him to start murdering me to find out. Everyone's level of fear is different. If someone rushes me and informs me they intend to end my life, I'm going to believe them, thus I will then be in fear of death or great bodily harm.

Edited December 20, 2011 by bkelm18

[bigwakes]

If someone who is clearly agitated with me for whatever reason comes at me while proclaiming "I'm going to kill you!", I'm drawing my weapon. How do I know if he's not concealing a knife or firearm? I'm certainly not going to wait for him to start murdering me to find out. Everyone's level of fear is different. If someone rushes me and informs me they intend to end my life, I'm going to believe them, thus I will then be in fear of death or great bodily harm.

I do respect your interpretation of the law in many instances, but on this we have to disagree. Being punched in the nose or pushed to the ground does not constitute bodily injury. The other issue is how do you "prove beyond a reasonable doubt" to a jurry that the guy you shot was a bad guy and said anything unless he has a weapon or a means to carry out a threat of that magnitude. My understanding is if a perp makes a threat or even advances towards you and it's just you and him then you are gonna be in a fight, not a shooting.

[BrasilNuts]

I have a feeling this is going to get buried and we'll never hear about it again.

I'm a little pissed because if it had been Joe Citizen who had acted in the same manner as these two officers he would have been chased down and placed in custody...Quickly.

Here's how I see it.

If it happened like Estep said the officers should be in jail.

If the officers had reason to draw their weapons Estep should be in jail.

Is there anyone in jail?

No.

Edited December 20, 2011 by BrasilNuts

[Guest bkelm18]

I do respect your interpretation of the law in many instances, but on this we have to disagree. Being punched in the nose or pushed to the ground does not constitute bodily injury. The other issue is how do you "prove beyond a reasonable doubt" to a jurry that the guy you shot was a bad guy and said anything unless he has a weapon or a means to carry out a threat of that magnitude. My understanding is if a perp makes a threat or even advances towards you and it's just you and him then you are gonna be in a fight, not a shooting.

Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. If his actions are threatening and he is telling me is going to murder me, I'm not going to sit and wait to see by which methods he intends to kill me. If his actions lead me to believe he is going to kill me, be it with fists or not, I will act. It doesn't take more than one or two solid punches to the head before a person can become immobilized.

[Guest 270win]

On the other side of this story is the guy in the car jumped out of his car and approached the two police more than likely very angry. Did he make any jestures or actions that would seem threatening? Did he say anything threatening? People who jump out of cars and approach people when angry aren't the brightest light bulbs. It is assumed this guy has fought people on the side of the road before or fought people in public.

[TMF]

On the other side of this story is the guy in the car jumped out of his car and approached the two police more than likely very angry. Did he make any jestures or actions that would seem threatening? Did he say anything threatening? People who jump out of cars and approach people when angry aren't the brightest light bulbs. It is assumed this guy has fought people on the side of the road before or fought people in public.

I agree, I'm sure his actions helped to escalate the situation, but that doesn't warrant pulling a weapon on him. If someone gets out of their car to yell at you in traffic would you pull your weapon out?

And to the other post, if someone advances on me and claims they are going to kill me then yes, my weapon is coming out. It's pretty clear to determine someone's intentions when they plainly tell them to you. If someone says they're going to kill me and advances in a threatening manner I'm not taking the time to find out how well they're armed.