.22, .25, .32, etc. vs "pointy stick"

[Steelharp]

We've all seen the replies when speaking of the more diminutive calibers; you know, the ones that just "piss people off," unlike the "fo-nickel." (Yes, there is a segment of the population that refers to the Communion Wafer of the Church of JMB as the fo-nickel instead of .45. They're usually in mug shots. But I digress.)

Anyway, it's common to read that they're "better than a pointy stick." However, we always say a man with a knife (basically a "pointy stick") is far more dangerous than a man with a gun.

Anyone else see some inconsistency there? Perhaps the pointy stick is the better choice...?

[deerslayer]

Within arm's reach, a man with a knife is more dangerous than a man with a gun. Any weapons-defense class will quickly illustrate that a knife is much more difficult to deal with at close range than a gun is.

My dad witnessed a man getting shot four times in the chest at point-blank range with a .25. After the fourth hit, the victim grabbed an old lady and used her as a shield. According to my father, the old lady began to "sing a tune." I bet. The .25 didn't stop the fight, but it did make the victim realize that he may soon face a serious change of status.

They are better than nothing, but I feel people carry them due to simple laziness. Other than at the beach, I can carry and conceal my Kahr CM9 just as easily as I can any mouse gun.

Edited December 18, 2011 by deerslayer

[1gewehr]

As a teenager, I saw a gunfight in New York City that took place across the roof of a Cadillac DeVille. Two pimps popping at each other with little .25 autos. Two empty guns later, neither had been hit and the gunfight was reduced to shouting as neither had a reload. In that case, the one with a 'pointy stick' would probably have drawn blood.

The great advantages of any handgun over a pointy stick, knife, club, or other hand weapon are range and ease of use. Useful skill with a handgun is easily learned, and six rounds of .380 or .38 is capable of a great deal more damage at 10 yards than the pointy stick. An 80-year old frail woman with a .38 is a danger to the life of the goblin who breaks into her home. The pointy stick would be much less of a threat to her assailant.

[Jonnin]

Plenty of people have survived multiple gunshots in major calibers. Plenty of people have died from being stabbed. Plenty have died from mouseguns too. Mousegun is not even meaningful anymore; I have a 9mm that is not much bigger than the old .25s. But 30 years ago the small guns were small caliber, its a rather recent trend of the past decade or so for guns over 380 in small platforms, apart from the 2 shot derringers that is. Lot of old timers just keep to their old guns, which are still the smaller calibers, seeing no need to "upgrade" to a .40 "mousegun". I like the biggest thing I can get into a pocket, so this trend suits me and I have changed guns 4 times in 10 years because of it.

Calling it lazy to prefer a pocket pistol is a little harsh. There is a reason for the trend I mentioned, and its because they SELL, and they sell because people want small, potent guns. Because they are easier to carry or deal with; I find a large pistol a huge aggravation at work as a desk jockey, its always pushed into me whether my back or side from the chair or my belly from being bent 90 degrees. In my pocket I do not feel it all day long, that is a winner. Carrying a 22 or something when a 9mm is the same size seems odd to me, but I am not going to go into that deeply. Keep in mind a lot of the small 9s and 40s are hard to shoot, with terrible triggers (my nano for example is borderline unusable) and stout recoil. Not every shooter is a 250 pound bodybuilder with wrists of iron and a grip of steel. Some people need a weaker gun as they cannot control the little pocket rockets, whether that is a recoil issue or a 20 pound 2 inch long trigger pull issue (exaggerated, but as one person put it, the trigger should not weigh more than the gun).

[deerslayer]

By "mouseguns" I wasn't referring to all pocket guns; I meant .22, .25, .32, even LCPs and P3ATs. I consider my Kahr CM9 a pocket gun. My point was that, other than the beach, I can take it anywhere I can take an 8 oz. .380 or .25 (not that I carry a gun in my swimsuit, lol). I believe some folks simply grab their .25s because they haven't bothered to experiment with a j-frame or mini-9.

As for small 9mm autos being hard to shoot, I disagree. My wife is 140 or so (don't tell her I posted this number) and she can easily handle our CM9. In fact, she jogs with it.

Edited December 18, 2011 by deerslayer

[Jonnin]

By "mouseguns" I meant .22, .25, .32, even LCRs and P3ATs. My point was that, other than the beach, I can take my 15 oz. 9mm anywhere I can take an 8 oz. .380 (not that I carry a gun in my swimsuit, lol). I believe some folks simply grab their .25s because they haven't bothered to experiment with a j-frame or mini-9.

As for small 9mm autos being hard to shoot, I disagree. My wife is 140 or so (don't tell her I posted this number) and she can easily handle our Kahr CM9. In fact, she jogs with it.

I am 175, that has little to do with it. I cannot fire any of the DAO 9s or 380s because I have carpel tunnel. Well, I can fire them, but if I practiced with on at the range I would be unable to use my hands for 2 days after (did that once, ouch!). My wife is near 6 foot tall and weighs more than yours (not giving any numbers..!) but her wrists are not strong enough to avoid LW these little 9s, its got nothing to do with her weight.

[nightrunner]

Within arms reach, i would rather have a good sharp fixed blade knife and be trained with it than a pocket gun. And i would rather face an attacker with a pocket gun at arms length than a sharp fixed blade. Go beyond arms length and the firearm prevails due to range.

Weight and overall physical condition would determine how effective one would be with a "pointy stick"

[deerslayer]

I am 175, that has little to do with it. I cannot fire any of the DAO 9s or 380s because I have carpel tunnel. Well, I can fire them, but if I practiced with on at the range I would be unable to use my hands for 2 days after (did that once, ouch!). My wife is near 6 foot tall and weighs more than yours (not giving any numbers..!) but her wrists are not strong enough to avoid LW these little 9s, its got nothing to do with her weight.

Health/injury issues are definitely a mitigating factor, but there are too many big strong healthy guys carring BB guns. Not really my business, I guess.

[tnhawk]

My "pointy stick" has never jammed and has more penetration than some small calibers.

[Caster]

Pointy stick give me the heeby jeebies! I wouldn't say to the extent of a phobia, but getting cut or stabbed gives me chills. I'd heap rather be shot (I think:))

Anyone in doubt, unload your carry weapon and check it three times, give it to a friend and have him clear it too, then put it back in your EDC set up. Have your friend stand ten to twelve feet away and pretend to have a knife. Get creative and cut one out of cardboard. Now, Can you get your weapon out and on target before he can cross that ten feet and stab you? Bet he can. I've talked to many cops and any of them who've been in a fight will tell you. That nut with baseball bat will be on top of you swinging a LOT faster than ypu think. That precious gun on our sides is not as much comfort when you consider the reality of this. That's why hitting a target quickly may not be enough.

[Lumber_Jack]

We used to practice knife fighting defense with the fat type sharpie markers. Leaves definitive "cut" symbols. Until one day my buddy had to get 12 stitches in his chin from the marker. We don't do that anymore.

But you'd be surprised how hard it is to keep from getting cut when defending against a knife. Let's just say if you enter into a knife fight, you're gonna bleed!

[Will Carry]

Although knives are brutally effective weapons at close range a gun can still be utilized at danger close distances. It is not useless in a knife fight. Also, if you are not trained in how to use a knife, you will probably not do well in knife fight against a trained opponent. I would hesitate to say that at arms reach distances (danger close) the man with the knife wins 100% of the time or even 50% of the time. There are too many other factors.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Will Carry

[Metalhead]

I carry both. Though, I do have this stupid love of bladed weapons of all sorts from an beauty point of view.

[R1100R]

I was in the Club business for years. In the worst parts of Atlanta. I have seen people get shot with a .25 and .32 and still beat the hell out of who shot them.

On that note I have seen a one shot kill to the head with some type of .22 and

a couple from multiple shots. Mixed results on .380. For years I carried a .380

Colt or PPK/s and a NAA mini revolver in .22 Mag in my front pocket. The switch to a Glock 19 for main carry when they came out. Mini .22 always in the front pocket. A lot of guys in the day carried the Beretta 21 in the front pocket due

to reliability.

I recently sold my Sig 380 and got a Kahr CM9 in 9mm I am still breaking in.

It is a wonderful pistol with a excellent trigger to me. Just 5-10 years ago the selection for a affordable mini 9mm was non existent. To me the J frame has a

horrible DA trigger, not to mention the recoil. ( I still own two).

Today there are so many option for the money why would you consider a .22,.25 or .32. I would include the .380, but there have been advances made in different types of ammo over the past few years that put it at the starting point as a minimum for defensive carry. Still argued in certain circles.

I spent many years dealing with or around people on what would be considered on the other side of the law. Not all of them carried Hi-Point's. I could argue the merit on them in another thread. These people were not afraid to use them.

BTW I still carry a pointed stick no matter what.

Edited December 18, 2011 by R1100R

[kesava]

I'll take the stick

Tueller Drill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is a great discussion topic.

Anyone threat in in a regular sized room could potentially strike a fatal blow.

Do you draw, aim, fire, follow up, asses or unsheathe and get all ninja?

[DaveTN]

I always go back to the basics; “Stop the threatâ€. If you are facing an opponent armed with a gun or a knife, you need to be able to make him unwilling or unable to shoot or stab you.

I don’t care if he dies, I don’t care about velocity, inches of penetration in ballistic gel, none of that. I only care about stopping the threat with extreme prejudice.

[Steelharp]

[Guest chrisdridley]

Years ago I had a pointy stick ( pool que ) and I got shot with a 32 in the thigh at near point blank range. A machine gun or a Case XX wouldn't have made a difference that day. The 32 didn't even slow me down until the event was over but once the nerves kicked in the one thing I can tell you is that a 32 hurts.

[Guest JHansonLPN]

Just me, but I live by adage of "not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog". I've seen a .25 bounce of a motorcycle helmet, and I've seen a man shot with a .22 DRT. I've seen knife fights that left nearly unrecognizable piles of meat, and I've seen an 80 year old man beat a 22yo mugger into a puddle. Different people have different lives. My G26 is kinda hard to wear in scrubs, but my LCP in a Fobus paddle or a Desantis pocket holster is awfully comforting. I'll carry what I can carry in given circumstances and have enough faith in my skills to meet any demand despite limitations of other peoples opinions.

[BryanP]

JMB carried a .32ACP, not a .45. Me, I carry .38+P or 9mm.

[TNWNGR]

I've seen what a knife, P.38 can opener, broken bottle and flat blade screwdriver can do to a person. It's really ugly, lot's of blood, deep cut's and puncture wound's. A small caliber bullet does a lot more damage on the inside then folk's give them credit for, you should see how much cutting an emergency surgery does in these cases. The bottom line is you make do with what you've got and stay in the fight.

[Guest Baron]

For me it is all about options and options are always good.

My build and weekly dress makes CC very difficult. I am usually limited to ankle holster or a holster undershirt. Neither work well with anything larger than a small single stack 9mm or 5-shot snub. I usually carry a PF9, but sometimes that is too large. Thats why I am very happy I have my Beretta Jetfire .25. It is the only firearm I cary when jogging or bicycling because its weight is never felt.

It was also my wifes CC for months. She couldn't clear a full mag in her PF9 without limp wristing it, but the Beretta went bang for her every time. I had to buy her a LCR to get the Beretta back.

I also always carry a small can of pepper spray and a folder. Again, I like to have options.

Is the .25 sufficient? I subscribe to the thought that all handguns are underpowered compromises, but I don't plan on bringing a pointy stick to a gun fight.

[ttocswob]

On the way: Kel Tec P32. Smaller and lighter than most anything else. Intended as backup to my weekday Polish P64 Makarov, or weekend Ruger LCR; or whenever I can't carry otherwise.

I chose this over the .380 so as not to inadvertently mix ammo with the 9x18 Makarov. Also, the lady of the house keeps her Beretta Tomcat, about all she can handle with her arthritis. One less caliber to stock.

Giver her strength issues, I guarantee she's better off with the .32 As for me, there's a clip folder in my pocket, Justin Case.

[hornett22]

I have a pointy stick in the yard,if you're ever in the Knoxville area,you're welcome to try it.

I think any caliber is better than no gun at all.

[Berettatn]

Hmmm...... Is my .32 H&R Magnum one of those "piss people off" guns?