Gray areas of the HCP Laws? What would you like to see more clearly defined?

[Guest WyattEarp]

Some of the HCP laws are not very clearly defined, and I believe too much is left for debate.

One grey area that really concerns me is regarding students not being able to have their handguns in their vehicle.

example of a situation I could have been in: I go to MTSU, and I photographed the MTSU vs. UT football game in November. I took my handgun with me to Knoxville, but left it at my friends when we went to pick up our press passes. I wasn't sure, and the law didn't clearly specify.

So my question is, does this apply to only students of that particular campus? Does it apply to all students attending any college in the state of Tennessee, and additionally applies to all college campuses in the state of Tennessee? Or does it only apply to a UT student who goes the UT campus, or a MTSU student who goes to MTSU?

Does it also apply to out of state students? Say a Bama student comes up from Tuscaloosa to watch the Bama vs UT game and they are carrying but leave it in their vehicle?

I'm sure there's many many other gray areas. Feel free to list any that you know of in this thread.

Before I do anything, I want to get feedback from others on here, but I was considering writing the Attorney General of TN and asking him to review the above regarding Students and weapons on campus. Would asking for such a review cause any harm to gun rights in Tennessee? Would it do more harm than good? Any other negative effects that could result from clarifying grey areas so they are more clearly defined and understood?

thoughts? opinions? comments?

[Will H]

I would think it would do more harm than good. Anytime these laws are "clarified" it seems to generally go against law abiding citizens being armed.

On the other hand I see signs at my daughter's school saying Gun free drug free zone. The pic is a gun crossed with a hypo needle. I personally find this offensive that the two of them would be represented together.

[Pain103]

The attorney general won't issue an opinion from a question raised by a citizen. Might be better if you know someone personally who is in the state legislature who wants the answers also to formally ask for his opinion. Good questions though and would be useful for people to know.

Taken form the AG website...

Who may request an opinion from the Attorney General?

The Attorney General is required to provide written legal opinions to "the governor, secretary of state, state treasurer, comptroller of the treasury, members of the general assembly and other state officials...in the discharge of their official duties." Tenn. Code Ann. § 8-6-109 (

(6).

The Attorney General cannot issue opinions to county or local government officials or to private citizens.

[Guest WyattEarp]

The attorney general won't issue an opinion from a question raised by a citizen. Might be better if you know someone personally who is in the state legislature who wants the answers also to formally ask for his opinion. Good questions though and would be useful for people to know.

Taken form the AG website...

Who may request an opinion from the Attorney General?

The Attorney General is required to provide written legal opinions to "the governor, secretary of state, state treasurer, comptroller of the treasury, members of the general assembly and other state officials...in the discharge of their official duties." Tenn. Code Ann. § 8-6-109 (

(6).

The Attorney General cannot issue opinions to county or local government officials or to private citizens.

interesting. Guess that solves that, then.

[Guest pfries]

The AG is required to give his opinion to the governor, secretary of state, state treasurer, comptroller of the treasury, members of the general assembly and other state officials. He is not required nor forbidden in giving an opinion to a citizen. Many of our state reps are pro-gun and would more than likely be willing to submit the questions for you.

[Guest WyattEarp]

The AG is required to give his opinion to the governor, secretary of state, state treasurer, comptroller of the treasury, members of the general assembly and other state officials. He is not required nor forbidden in giving an opinion to a citizen. Many of our state reps are pro-gun and would more than likely be willing to submit the questions for you.

good idea, thanks pfries.

[Mike.357]

no average HCP'r can have a gun on UT's campus. My understanding of having a gun on campus or any school is that if I am picking up or dropping off someone I can have it as long as I do not touch it. But it cannot be left in a vehicle while I leave the vehicle while on campus or school property.

Not very gray

[Guest pfries]

no average HCP'r can have a gun on UT's campus. My understanding of having a gun on campus or any school is that if I am picking up or dropping off someone I can have it as long as I do not touch it. But it cannot be left in a vehicle while I leave the vehicle while on campus or school property.

Not very gray

I think where he is thinking gray is here

39-17-1309. Carrying weapons on school property.

c) (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

So if only the adult has the keys and only the adult can operate it thus the question.

[Mike.357]

I would think the law in this instance would apply to a UTK student.

if I went to Fountainhead college of technology I would be a student but I don't see how that would interfere with me having a gun in the car.

[Oh Shoot]

no average HCP'r can have a gun on UT's campus. My understanding of having a gun on campus or any school is that if I am picking up or dropping off someone I can have it as long as I do not touch it. But it cannot be left in a vehicle while I leave the vehicle while on campus or school property.

Not very gray

How many times have you NOT read a thread about this?

See pfries quote of 39-17-1309.

Perhaps the grayest thing about it is whether the gun may be loaded.

Since the allowance does not mention HCP, most assume it is intended to be unloaded for everyone but who knows.

Btw, the definition of "unloaded" is gray, also, probably really a mistake in verbiage as far as intent:

"Unloaded" means the rifle, shotgun or handgun does not have ammunition in the chamber, cylinder, clip or magazine, and no clip or magazine is in the immediate vicinity of the weapon.

I'd say it was NOT their intent to ban unloaded magazines in the immediate vicinity of the weapon, yet the gun must be "unloaded" in 39-17-1308 (defense to unlawful carry). Thus, some more gray.

- OS

Edited December 18, 2011 by OhShoot

[Oh Shoot]

More gray:

1359 says carrying past a sign is punishable by a fine of $500 only.

1352 says your HCP will be suspended or revoked for violation of 1359.

- OS

[Guest pfries]

How many times have you NOT read a thread about this?

See pfries quote of 39-17-1309.

Perhaps the grayest thing about it is whether the gun may be loaded.

Since the allowance does not mention HCP, most assume it is intended to be unloaded for everyone but who knows.

Btw, the definition of "unloaded" is gray, also, probably really a mistake in verbiage as far as intent:

"Unloaded" means the rifle, shotgun or handgun does not have ammunition in the chamber, cylinder, clip or magazine, and no clip or magazine is in the immediate vicinity of the weapon.

I'd say it was NOT their intent to ban unloaded magazines in the immediate vicinity of the weapon, yet the gun must be "unloaded" in 39-17-1308 (defense to unlawful carry). Thus, some more gray.

- OS

As with many of our clear as mud-laden laws it eludes to HCP holders with this part of the statement

c) (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed

[Oh Shoot]

As with many of our clear as mud-laden laws it eludes to HCP holders with this part of the statement

c) (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed

Don't get your point.

That's "alludes" btw.

- OS

[Guest 270win]

These AG opinions never work out well. Retain the services of an attorney in your town to get an opinion or know one in case you get in trouble with whatever law.

I do not care for having a silly sign law that gives the possibility of people being fined on private property (500 dollars) or public parks (11/29 A misdemeanor) when you have a handgun carry permit. I think it is pure stupid that someone with a handgun carry permit can be charged with a felony for carrying at schools. Isn't the point of having a handgun carry permit is to not be fined? Mississippi allows folks to have handguns loaded in their cars at schools WITHOUT permits and some people with permits can carry at schools in MS. Same thing with Alabama. Why not Tennessee?

[Guest WyattEarp]

I would think the law in this instance would apply to a UTK student.

if I went to Fountainhead college of technology I would be a student but I don't see how that would interfere with me having a gun in the car.

you would think, but the law should be more clearly defined and be specific. not generalized.

does student mean, student of that school? college student within the state? college student anywhere in the nation? that's the point of the thread.

[Fallguy]

It doesn't affect us directly, but there is an AG opinon about LEOs and firearms...you know they can carry their firearms at a school (the law doesn't specify K-12 and/or college) as long as they notify the principal they are on the campus.

The AG has opined that since the law uses the word "principal" and that title is generally associated with K-12 schools and not those of higher education a LEO need not notify the head of a university/college that they are on campus.

[Guest Catfish36]

Don't get me started on this subject!

At 36 I recently returned to Pellissippi State for the 3 attempt at completing college. (I plan on getting that diploma before I die, whether I need it or not!), Anyway, I took a public speaking class and I did two of my speeches on this subject.

In my research I spoke to 3 "security" officers on campus and although they are licensed to carry on school property by the State , Pellissippi will not allow them to carry either. There are no gun buster signs on the entrances, but down the hall by the office there is a big poster stating the law and mentioning a rediculous fine and Jail time.

Read the Amanda Collins Story in NRA's "America's First Freedom" (can't remember which issue). Amanda was licensed to carry in her state but not allowed on campus anywhere with her gun..She was raped at gunpoint and another woman was killed by the same man before they caught him...Campus security there eventually admitted.."If we do not allow you to protect yourself, then we must assume the responsibility of protecting you." Since they can't be everywhere at once and they are also unarmed..they can not fulfill this obligation.

Also I recommend you google "Students for Concealed Carry"..a national organization ..with alot of good arguments and resources. I have contacted them by email and I am considering starting a Pellissippi chapter if I could gather enough interest. It doesn't work too well as a one man show.

[Guest WyattEarp]

These AG opinions never work out well. Retain the services of an attorney in your town to get an opinion or know one in case you get in trouble with whatever law.

I do not care for having a silly sign law that gives the possibility of people being fined on private property (500 dollars) or public parks (11/29 A misdemeanor) when you have a handgun carry permit. I think it is pure stupid that someone with a handgun carry permit can be charged with a felony for carrying at schools. Isn't the point of having a handgun carry permit is to not be fined? Mississippi allows folks to have handguns loaded in their cars at schools WITHOUT permits and some people with permits can carry at schools in MS. Same thing with Alabama. Why not Tennessee?

cheaper to ask the AG for an opinion, than it is to leave it up to the discretion of a police officer and a prosecutor and need to retain the services of an attorney.

The gun rights advocates in Tennessee, need to come together and we need to turn up the heat on our state lawmakers to bring about acceptable change. We can do that by voicing our opinions in a respectful manner, writing our representatives, getting signed petitions from supporters, and calling for a public debate on the matter.

I think where he is thinking gray is here

39-17-1309. Carrying weapons on school property.

c) (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

So if only the adult has the keys and only the adult can operate it thus the question.

part of it my seeing the grey area with it is, I go to another college, and my purpose on the university was only for a brief period of time, so as to stop, pickup credentials for an event and then leave. I'm an adult, and no one else would have been in control of my firearm. I have a laptop cable lock and a gun cable lock bolted to the floor of my vehicle so anytime I am somewhere where I have to leave my weapon in the car, I clear the chamber, put the magazine in the glovebox and lock it, and then i run one end of the cable lock through the bottom of the magazine slot, out the ejection port and then I lock the cable. this way my gun can't be loaded and fired by someone else, and it can't be stolen, unless they steal the car, or have tools to unbolt my seat. but it's a rare, rare occassion I ever leave my firearm in my car, only when absolutely necessary, no other options, etc.

Don't get me started on this subject!

At 36 I recently returned to Pellissippi State for the 3 attempt at completing college. (I plan on getting that diploma before I die, whether I need it or not!), Anyway, I took a public speaking class and I did two of my speeches on this subject.

In my research I spoke to 3 "security" officers on campus and although they are licensed to carry on school property by the State , Pellissippi will not allow them to carry either. There are no gun buster signs on the entrances, but down the hall by the office there is a big poster stating the law and mentioning a rediculous fine and Jail time.

Read the Amanda Collins Story in NRA's "America's First Freedom" (can't remember which issue). Amanda was licensed to carry in her state but not allowed on campus anywhere with her gun..She was raped at gunpoint and another woman was killed by the same man before they caught him...Campus security there eventually admitted.."If we do not allow you to protect yourself, then we must assume the responsibility of protecting you." Since they can't be everywhere at once and they are also unarmed..they can not fulfill this obligation.

Also I recommend you google "Students for Concealed Carry"..a national organization ..with alot of good arguments and resources. I have contacted them by email and I am considering starting a Pellissippi chapter if I could gather enough interest. It doesn't work too well as a one man show.

yep, carry on campus by responsible and law abiding HCP holders should be allowed.

keep plugging away at getting that degree, you can do it! don't give up, and don't accept failure! I'm almost finished with my degree, 3 semesters left to go!

Edited December 19, 2011 by WyattEarp

[Oh Shoot]

... Pellissippi will not allow them to carry either. There are no gun buster signs on the entrances, but down the hall by the office there is a big poster stating the law and mentioning a rediculous fine and Jail time.....

Gun buster sign is not mentioned under the school statute -- the one on the office is what is specified, even minimum size is specified, and is to be displayed around the property in "prominent locations".

But you can't carry even if there are no notices, and there is no penalty for the school for not posting them.

- OS

Edited December 19, 2011 by OhShoot