Kel-tec Plr-16 w/ vertical grip

[Guest Will40-44-45-223]

Hey looking for some clarification on this.... If I want a Kel-tec plr-16 with a vertical grip on it it has to be registered as a SBR?

[Smith]

yes.

[Magiccarpetrides]

however...and i stress you check first...i believe installing a magpul AFG is kosher

[c.a.willard]

Im not a NFA expert but i thought the foward grip on it since its a pistol makes it an AOW and not an SBR. It doesnt become an SBR untill it has a stock added

[Smith]

Im not a NFA expert but i thought the foward grip on it since its a pistol makes it an AOW and not an SBR. It doesnt become an SBR untill it has a stock added

My understanding is that since you have made it a "two handed" fired weapon it ceases to become a pistol and is now a SBR (ATF Logic:rolleyes:). The AOW, I believe, doesn't apply since the barrel is rifled and not smooth.

[c.a.willard]

From the ATF's website “Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand… Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).

Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as:

… a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (

a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon” (AOW) in 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e) as:

… any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment."

[Guest bkelm18]

Either way... don't do it.

[Guest Will40-44-45-223]

so some say its an AOW and some say SBR do we really know?

[Guest bkelm18]

so some say its an AOW and some say SBR do we really know?

Are you considering a tax stamp just to use a VFG?

[Guest Will40-44-45-223]

Are you considering a tax stamp just to use a VFG?

would depend on if its a $5 or $200

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Dunno if it would be an SBR or AOW. Though there is no guarantee that Wikipedia is correct, there is a short Wikipedia article on the topic.

Vertical forward grip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B0qyloA48O3XZWFjYjMwYTMtYTg1MC00NzVhLWI3NmMtZDRiNTMzNzdhMzUx&hl=en_US (third page in the ATF letter references the angled foregrip)

The Wikipedia article asserts that a vertical foregrip makes a pistol an AOW (in the opinion of the ATF, never confirmed by a court case). The article also alleges that the ATF does not consider a pistol with an angled forward grip to be an AOW.

I would not be eager to be a test case.

====

Here is very ignorant opinion from experience with my PLR-16. I'm not an expert and might be all wrong--

Except for a stance holding a PLR-16 at waist-level or chest level like in gangster movies, it is difficult to imagine a vertical foregrip being useful or ergonomic. Seems that one would need a bright green laser or possibly tracer bullets to have much chance of hitting a target if holding the pistol low so that you can't aim with the sights? Even with a very bright laser I wouldn't expect much in the way of practical accuracy if shooting the gun low as in a gangster movie.

If you experiment firing the PLR-16 a conventional way, looking down the sights-- If you hold the front of the magwell with the weak hand as you would use a vertical foregrip-- It is difficult to find an ergonomic stance because the strong arm has to bend into a weak unsupported position.

If you add a vertical foregrip ever further forward in front of the magwell then I think it would bend the strong arm into an even weaker unsupported position and make ergonomics (and potential accuracy) very difficult.

So it doesn't sound practical even if were legal, but maybe I'm all wrong.

[Smith]

so some say its an AOW and some say SBR do we really know?

Every definitive ruling I have seen from the ATF says it is an SBR. The problem with the ATF is that their definitions tend to conflict with each other and they are the ones that get to decide arbitrarily which it is. If you look at what Willard posted from the ATF you can see that it could be read both ways. The only way is to submit a for a ruling from the ATF on you specific request and then keep that letter for all eternity as they will probably forget.

I also agree with Lester that it is of little usefulness to go through the extra cost and paperwork. Get a single point sling and tension it to compensate for a stock and use the mag-well as the front support ala MP5.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Smith

[Murgatroy]

I knew I had read something on this lately.

There is a thread on Zombie Squad about this exact thing, which lead me to this which states that you can put an AFG on an AR-15 style pistol (which is also considered to include the PLR-16 via other sources,) without being in violation of any laws.

For your own safety, I would suggest sending your own letter to the ATF to obtain this permission, using the above letter as a reference. By having that letter in your possession, it would limit a lot of hassle that you may encounter.

*Edited for sources*

Regarding the PLR-16: AFG Proved By BATF on PRL-16 "letter inside" - KTOG - Kel Tec Owners Group Forum

Regarding the AFG: Zombie Squad • View topic - PLR-16 w/ AFG for PDW

Both include links to the ATF letters in question.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Murgatroy

[hipower]

Is it really worth all the time and expense to do this? I mean, I like the odd and unusual firearm as much as anyone else here, but is it worth the hassle you coud potentially recieve from any irate mall ninja, armchair commando, or just plain-looking-to-cause-you trouble LEO that might see you every time you take this weapon out in public? Not trying to be a smartass here, but you've gotten some very good advice from some very knowdgeable members here. Check their reps and you'll find they just may be worth listening to.

I'd love to do this to a Calico 9mm I have, but the way BATFE interprets their own rules (meaning however they damn well please depending on the time of day, week, or year), I'm not willing to risk my HCP, my guns, what little money I have, the cost of legal expenses, and the general aggravation of dealing with the legal system. I just won't risk it. JMO

[R_Bert]

I knew I had read something on this lately.

There is a thread on Zombie Squad about this exact thing, which lead me to this which states that you can put an AFG on an AR-15 style pistol (which is also considered to include the PLR-16 via other sources,) without being in violation of any laws.

For your own safety, I would suggest sending your own letter to the ATF to obtain this permission, using the above letter as a reference. By having that letter in your possession, it would limit a lot of hassle that you may encounter.

*Edited for sources*

Regarding the PLR-16: AFG Proved By BATF on PRL-16 "letter inside" - KTOG - Kel Tec Owners Group Forum

Regarding the AFG: Zombie Squad • View topic - PLR-16 w/ AFG for PDW

Both include links to the ATF letters in question.

Yeah, as I recall (not on KTOG anymore) over time, and all the threads, the AFG conclusion amongst the KTOGers was "get your own letter", otherwise do the $200 paperwork for a SBR.

Don't even use your own gun & AFG photos, use images from manufacturer's web sites in your letter of inquiry.

Bert

[Capbyrd]

would depend on if its a $5 or $200

Its 200 either way. The 5 dollar stamp is to transfer an AOW. It's 200 to make and register an AOW

[Dolomite_supafly]

There are no $5 stamps you can do yourself. There are $5 transfers of AOW's after a manufacturer has made them. But all self made items, including AOWs, require a $200 stamp. All items that an individual makes is on a Form 1 and the cost for the stamp on a Form 1 is $200 regardless of the item being made.

And BTW, adding a VFG to a registered pistol makes it a AOW. Adding a shoulder stock makes it a SBR.

Dolomite

[dlm37015]

it would be 200 as it didnt come with it at the time it was made

[Jonnin]

Once you pay the fine its no longer a pistol and not usable on HCP. Just grab the magazine well with a 30 round AR mag in it for a grip, its pretty comfy to hold that way. Rumors of a 300 blackout model in the next year or so are appearing, if that interests you.

[Mason]

I had a PLR-16 that I bought with the vertical for-grip installed by the previous owner. It would not feed worth a crap and was way too inaccurate for my taste. After trying a viriety of sights and magazines I wanted it gone. I had no idea that the grip was illegel untill I went to trade it in. The shop I was in was nice and took the grip off in 10 sec. flat and THEN explaned.

The vertical grip was useless because with the brake sending the sound into your face it was unbairably loud and impossable to aim. This is one of the only two guns I have ever sold or traded.

Mine looked cool but was useless for anything.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

My PLR-16 runs reliably so far, using either the 10 rd Kel-Tec mag that came in the box, or 30 rd PMag window magazines. The only other mag I've tested was a generic 30 rd steel AR mag which the dealer threw in for "free", which turns the PLR-16 into a jam-o-matic. That steel mag got retired after the first test.

Shooting PLR-16 with a conventional two-handed pistol grip, using strap tension to steady the aim, it shoots about as accurate as my Ruger Mark II (though I'm not especially accurate with any gun). Adjusted the strap length so that the strap pulls tight exactly when the arms are fully extended in a firing stance. Works almost as good as a stock to steady the aim.

However, used in that fashion, the PLR-16 has a lot of mass to quickly aim the gun at different targets. The pistol would probably suck for fast-paced steel shooting, swinging around such an ungainly big pistol.

[Guest dubaholic2]

"Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition."

i believe this would rule out it being an AOW, would it not?