Picking a press to purchase

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Couldn't either one of us just take a case, whether empty or full, and set it on the scale, measure, remove the case, and repeat with the same case a number of times? That tells you if the scale measures repeatedly. I didn't think to check that when I was loading, as the scale is spot on with my 50-gram check weight. Every time it hits the exact same weight. That said, its accuracy could be different at 60 grains than 50 grams, so perhaps performing the test with a case is a good idea.

Hi BlessTheUSA

Your scale may be a whole lot better than mine. Mine is about 10 years old and basically works OK, but not perfect.

Some people will take a sample case, set it on the scale and press the zero button, then fill the case and weigh it. Other folks will place the little powder pan on the scale, press zero, and then dump the powder from the case into the pan for a weight. Maybe there are alternate even smarter ways to do it.

I typically dump 10 charges in the powder pan and then divide by 10, which gives decent confidence on the average weight but doesn't give much info about the standard deviation.

My scale will drift by temperature. Sometimes not very much, and sometimes 0.1 grains or more. And it also seems to have a little bit of hysteresis on the weighing platform. Every time the weight sets down on the platform it isn't absolutely guaranteed to settle to exactly the same measurement. I think it is a small "stickiness" in how the platform pushes on the strain gage cell. If I had enough skill to set a weight on the platform exactly the same way every time, then maybe it would work more consistently.

The combination of a little bit of drift and a little bit of platform hysteresis keeps me from for instance weighing 10 different loads in succession and having much confidence that the scale was measuring exactly the same way on each load.

Even if I get a better scale I might not trust it a whole bunch. Probably a personality disorder.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[mikegideon]

How much does a +/- .1 grain variation matter in a pistol load anyway? I know the velocity will vary with it, but I doubt that it would cause unsafe pressure in a load that's normally safe. Gimme one of your favorite loads, and I'll run it in Quickload.

[Guest canebreaker]

Some guy in memphis, craigslist has what looks like a lee 1000 press/w dies and for parts a shotgun press for 150. Plus molds and brass in 9m and 357. Going to check it out later.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

There is so much that I want to say, but heck, I don't know where to start..!!!!!! First, if you want a good inexpensive progressive press, Dillon Square Deal press is the way to go.. You can do both the pistol ammo on it and .223. As to the .223 brass, get a K&M expander mandrel to expand the necks for .223 and some Imperial wax after expanding the necks, you will have to size them. If you try to expand some of that brass in the dies, you will loose some of them, less with the expander die. Beam scale, RCBS 10-10 , electronic.. Sortorious AY-123 scale. The Giraud trimmer is the Caddy of trimmers, but starting out, get a Wilson trimmer, inexpensive and very very accurate. When loading ammo on a progressive press, your best to use ball powder, some flake and almost all stick powders will bridge in the hopper and askew your loads. As to crimping, pistol ammo will do fine with taper crimping, don't have to roll crimp, since your reloading 9mm, you will want to taper crimp, since 9mm headspaces on the mouth of the case. For the .223, neck tension will be fine, 3 thousand tension is all you need for a AR-15, roll crimping will cause differences in pressure and bullet release, which will affect accuracy. Due to the volume of the 9mm case, yes one tenth of a grain will make a difference, esp if at a max load. Remember, ball powders are temp sensitive.

[mikegideon]

Good to see you, Froggy!

[Guest canebreaker]

Well the guy says he updated his ad on craigslist.

The only thing I see is he made it all CAPS.

I guess he doesn't want to deal.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

How much does a +/- .1 grain variation matter in a pistol load anyway? I know the velocity will vary with it, but I doubt that it would cause unsafe pressure in a load that's normally safe. Gimme one of your favorite loads, and I'll run it in Quickload.

Hi Mike

As is well known I dunno much about it, but personally don't worry about +/- 0.1 grain except to stay below the max load so any "normal slop" that might be in there doesn't occasionally drop a too-hot load. I just get offended not knowing "for sure" what the weight is.

A problem with some combinations of bullet and powder is that the min-max span can be 0.5 grain or less. Those combinations don't give a very wide window if one is not certain of equipment slop values. I solve that by avoiding those combinations.

Quite a few desirable combinations have a min-max span in the ballpark of 1 grain which is still pretty small. Except for expert target shooters +/- 0.1 grain ought to be close enough for rock'n'roll.

Some of the Hornady pistol load data lists several powder weights between min and max, displaying the measured velocity at each weight. In some examples I've studied, the velocity doesn't change a whole bunch between steps, so it ought to be less of a change for accidental 0.1 grain steps.

Ferinstance on one powder/bullet combo, they show 4.6 gn = 950 fps, 5.0 gn = 1000 fps, 5.4 gn = 1050 fps, and 5.8 gn = 1100 fps.

On another combo, they show 4.7 = 1050, 4.9 = 1075, 5.1 = 1100, and 5.3 = 1125.

...First, if you want a good inexpensive progressive press, Dillon Square Deal press is the way to go.. You can do both the pistol ammo on it and .223.

...

Beam scale, RCBS 10-10 , electronic.. Sortorious AY-123 scale.

Thanks Froggy

Does a third-party make SDB compatible .223 dies? I don't think Dillon makes anythine except straight-wall pistol dies for an SDB. But I like my SDB fine.

Was thinking about eventually getting either that Sortorious AY-123 or the nearly identical AY-303, which has a higher max weight range and a slightly higher cost. In the pictures the Sartorious AY models look virtually identical in buttons, appearance, and features to the company's old Acculab scales. I have a 1 gram resolution Acculab that works great, which was bought to weigh heavier stuff at lower resolution, so it won't double as a powder scale. Assuming their milligram scales work as good it would be nice to have one.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Well I guess that they don't anymore, it was my thought that they did, I looked on the website, saw no listing for .223 with the SDB, so I guess that I am wrong in that regard. But I do know this, that lee progressive press isn't worth getting.. Next best thing is a turret press, I like the Harrell's Brothers Harrell's Tooling Turret Press

[mikegideon]

Well I guess that they don't anymore, it was my thought that they did, I looked on the website, saw no listing for .223 with the SDB, so I guess that I am wrong in that regard. But I do know this, that lee progressive press isn't worth getting.. Next best thing is a turret press, I like the Harrell's Brothers Harrell's Tooling Turret Press

Yeah... we already touched on that

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Well I just punched it instead of being all touchie feelie about it..

[mikegideon]

Well I just punched it instead of being all touchie feelie about it..

I tried to put a smiley after that last one, but TGO is in a mood tonite. :-)

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Smiles

[Ajruger]

The dillon 550b is an awesome reloader. I am not a big fan of lee stuff.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

I need a press to point up my bullets on, I am thinking, for the money, the Lee Classic cast iron "O" press is what I will get for that.

[mikegideon]

I need a press to point up my bullets on, I am thinking, for the money, the Lee Classic cast iron "O" press is what I will get for that.

I just replaced one of the breechlock classic cast presses. Still have it. Holler if it will help. I'm sure you have something to swap.

[Guest]

I finally had a chance Saturday morning to try out my first reloads. Need to check a couple of things.

Bullet Info:

Using once-fired roll-sized cases.

Bullet is Precision Delta 124gr JHP, which looks essentially juts like a Hornady XTP (at least what I can tell without seeing a pulled XTP), except that it doesn't have the plastic insert.

Primers are CCI small Pistol Primer.

Powder is Uniqe. I loaded and shot 4.2 grain, 4.5 grain, and 4.7 grain in both my XDm9 and a friend's PF9.

Hornady lists the max charge of Unique with a 124 grain bullet as 5.0 grains of powder. By loading at 4.7 grains, I only trade off 50 fps of muzzle velocity (1,050 vs 1,100), but have a little leeway if the press powder drop varies a couple tenths of a grain. Does loading to 4.7 grains seem like a smart decision?

The images below are the 4.7 grain shot from the XDm9. Do you see any signs of over-pressure that I am missing? Is there anything else I should look for / check?

If these are good to go, my next plan is probably to load ~100 or so and shoot them all to check for any issues. Then load up the whole rest of the batch all at once.

These will be used for practice / target ammo, but would be a backup self-defense round if I ever had to use it as such. I have a wide assortment of brass headstamps in the brass I received, but all used for testing was only Winchester, if that matters.

Thanks

Edited February 13, 2012 by Guest

[MarkInNashville]

I finally had a chance Saturday morning to try out my first reloads. Need to check a couple of things.

Hornady lists the max charge of Unique with a 124 grain bullet as 5.0 grains of powder. By loading at 4.7 grains, I only trade off 50 fps of muzzle velocity (1,050 vs 1,100), but have a little leeway if the press powder drop varies a couple tenths of a grain. Does loading to 4.7 grains seem like a smart decision?

The images below are the 4.7 grain shot from the XDm9. Do you see any signs of over-pressure that I am missing? Is there anything else I should look for / check?

Thanks

For what its worth (which isn't much, I'm afraid) I was reloading Unique, CCI #500 primers and mixed picked up brass and pushing 115 grn copper jacketed Zero bullets with WAY MORE powder than you are! I don't think you will have a problem with that recipe. UNDERSTAND: I am NOT advocating the use of more powder than the maximum recommended amount, I am just relating my experiences using it, based on the experience of someone who has been reloading with Unique for 30 years and I worked my charges up, incrementally.

[Guest]

For what its worth (which isn't much, I'm afraid) I was reloading Unique, CCI #500 primers and mixed picked up brass and pushing 115 grn copper jacketed Zero bullets with WAY MORE powder than you are! I don't think you will have a problem with that recipe. UNDERSTAND: I am NOT advocating the use of more powder than the maximum recommended amount, I am just relating my experiences using it, based on the experience of someone who has been reloading with Unique for 30 years and I worked my charges up, incrementally.

I was curious after your post to see how the allowable powder charge varies with bullet weight. For some reason, although the Hornady book lists Unique for the 124 grain bullet, it is not included in the 115 grain table.

However, A No. 7 is in both tables, and the max charge for the larger bullet is listed as 7.9gr vs 8.6gr for the lighter table. Perhaps because the lighter bullet gets moving more quickly, thus relieving pressure and allowing more powder?

I think in my particular case, I'll stick to 4.7g to be safe, but definately appreciate the info. Always trying to learn more.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Hi BlessTheUSA

I've not used CCI primers. From what I've read, reading signs of overpressure from the firing pin mark or the flattening of the primer, is a tricky art and sometimes indicates little. Dunno. Have read that CCI primers are stiff enough that if a CCI primer is real flat then it could be a sign of overpressure or "near the brink". In the picture those look a little flat but not mashed flat as a pancake.

Mark and others who use CCI primers may offer advice whether they look "too flat". Pushing 124 gn bullets can get more pressure than 115 gn bullets. If you used the Hornady OAL of 1.06", then that puts the back of the bullet pretty far deep in the case.

It is hard to tell from your picture-- If you look real close or with a magnifying glass, are the edges of the fired primers rounded, or squared off? In December was looking at lots of web forum pictures of fired primers, and usually the CCI fired primers appeared to have some rounded edge if the pressure was OK.

Ain't saying it is good or bad. I don't have the experience to say.

====

After I reloaded a bunch of XTP's in December using a previouly-chrono'd recipe. Federal primers I use are pretty soft and they can often look pretty flat when nothing is wrong. The chrony broke and I couldn't measure the new loads. My Federal primers from that batch were flat enough to make a pancake envious, but no evidence of primer piercing or whatever.

Finally got out today with the replacement chrony "brain" to measure them. Assuming the new chrony "brain" is measuring halfway accurate-- It seems to function fine, no errors or spurious measurements-- But that is no guarantee that the numbers are absolutely accurate.

Anyway, am getting consistent velocity measurements right up at the bottom edge of the +P range for 124 gn bullets, and my powder load is about 0.3 gn lower than the published max from "old" Hornady load data. So the max on the "old" Hornady data might be modern equivalent of +P or +P+ for all I know.

Anyway, they are not blowing up or piercing primers, and for instance the old Corbon 124gn XTP +P have been measured even faster, so my reloads are probably real hot but fine. Being able to measure the velocity adds another data point. But without being able to measure actual pressure it is only another data point.

Just sayin, glad I stayed below max! The hornady data predicted my load would be a little faster than 1050 fps but mine are measuring mean velocity of 1193 fps! Though velocity is affected by pistol and barrel-length, that is scooting right along for a 9mm 124gn bullet. Standard deviation is really good. The percent standard deviation is only 0.71%.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[Guest]

It is hard to tell from your picture-- If you look real close or with a magnifying glass, are the edges of the fired primers rounded, or squared off? In December was looking at lots of web forum pictures of fired primers, and usually the CCI fired primers appeared to have some rounded edge if the pressure was OK.

I'll check those with a magnifying glass and report back.

You're making me wish I had a chronograph! That'll have to go on the "things to purchase at some point" list. That darned list is too long!

Edited February 13, 2012 by Guest

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I'll check those with a magnifying glass and report back.

You're making me wish I had a chronograph! That'll have to go on the "things to purchase at some point" list. That darned list is too long!

Hi BlessTheUSA

Yeah, a nerd's avarice for gadgets is nearly insatiable. My F1 Master Chrony didn't cost much and worked great til it quit working. Got good customer service and they got me back in biz. All the chronograph brands have a percentage of unhappy irate users.

Some people complain of erratic measurements and error codes on the Chrony, but so far every time I send a bullet over the chrony it always gives a measurement, and the measurements are consistent enough that its gotta be measuring something real, though that is no guarantee the thing is anywhere near in calibration. Going deep in the rabbit hole, one could get two or more different chronographs and compare the results. But that would only lead to confusion about which device is most correct.

Same as comparing the result of multiple scales, or comparing the result of multiple calipers. I have a few non-$500 calipers and micrometers which all give slightly different answers. Not knowing which answer is correct, it seems that one can only accept the inevitable that there will always be some question about the accurate value of the least significant digit. Except if maybe the "true answer" is to buy the most-expensive Starrett that money can buy.

Anyway if you get the hankering, it appears that the ProChrono brand has accumulated the smallest percentage of unhappy customers and it is not real expensive.

http://www.midwayusa...810BrandPopProd

I bet yer loads are fine but haven't a clue.

====

More boring carp, pay no attention unless you are a masochist---

Was reading yesterday and found the allegation that many factory loads advertise pistol ammo velocity based on a four inch barrel, though it is not uncommon to find other test barrel lengths listed in various reloading data. Sometimes the barrel length is not listed at all, especially with internet user reports.

Dunno if correct, but searching online charts and user reports, it looks like a 9mm 124gn bullet can be expected to gain/lose something on the order of 50 to 80 fps per inch of barrel, though of course it is doubtful that the expectation would be met except in a narrow range of barrel lengths. If a 4 inch barrel delivers 1000 fps, it seems implausible that a 40 inch barrel would deliver 2800 to 3880 fps.

So anyway, was testing yesterday with a Beretta 92FS simply because it seems fairly unlikely to blow up unless a load is super hot. Which has a barrel lenght of about 4.9 inches. Dangit, don't currently have any pistols with a 4" barrel. All are either longer or shorter.

Have some Hornady factory "custom" brand 124gn XTP. The box doesn't specify barrel length and lists 1110 fps. Found an internet reference saying that is for a 4" barrel but dunno if that is true. Last year I chrono'd that factory ammo with the 92FS but can't recall the measurement and need to either find the paper or re-test.

Assuming a 4 inch barrel at 1110 fps, then one might guesstimate 1160 to 1190 fps for the 92fs 4.9" barrel. Which is not radically off from my measured reload mean velocity of 1193 fps. Can't find the records of the previous test, but I do recall my load measuring in the same ballpark to the hornady "custom" brand factory stuff.

I need to get a notebook for load data and nothing else so old notes don't get lost. Assuming the notebook doesn't get lost.

In december also loaded a bunch of Rainier 124 gn soft-lead copper plate round nose. Hadn't loaded Rainier for awhile because Obama election hysteria made em unobtanium. Ramshot gives recent data for that bullet. They also specify Federal primers (same as mine) and a 4" barrel.

For Silhouette powder they list 5.0 gn at 988 fps and max 5.8 gn at 1119 fps. The OAL is listed 1.16", which is just about as long as will fit in some of my mags. I used 5.5 gn silhouette which is the same load used on the XTP's. Only the OAL had to be changed.

Tested with the 92fs 4.9" barrel, velocity mean was 1150.6 fps. Subtracting 50 to 80 fps in order to guestimate the velocity for a 4" barrel, yields numbers consistent with RamShot's load data. Slower than max 1119 fps but faster than min 988 fps.

An interesting thing about the Rainier performance-- I've spot checked Rainier bullet weight and diameter and they seem fairly consistent with no wild variations.

Given that all my methods were the same with the Rainier bullets vs the XTP bullets-- Same powder load, same bullet weight, same primer, same case prep, same press, same dummass operating the press, both loads tested back-to-back the same day on the same pistol and same chrony-- The only variables were bullet brand and OAL--

The Rainier percent standard deviation is 1.128% which isn't bad, but the XTP percent standard deviation of 0.71% is much lower! Maybe that implies that there is SOMETHING about the XTP bullet which is more conducive to consistent velocity? Many people comment that the XTP tends to be an accurate bullet so maybe that is one reason? Though aerodynamic differences might make a difference as well. Dunno. Making it up as I go along.

Hmmm, just thunk up one more wrinkle-- It is claimed that silhouette powder is one of the few which have a negative temperature coefficient-- They shoot hotter on cold days. It was cold as dog doo yesterday (for a southern boy). Was wishing had worn a heavier coat. Maybe these loads will measure slower if I can remember to re-test next August?

[Guest]

Lester,

Thanks for the info. That Chronograph would be within reach. I suppose it's a worthwhile investment, to use that before I load a lot more $ worth of ammo that may not be tweaked just right. I'll do some reading on chronographs next :-)

[Guest]

The CCI primers themselves are still rounded on the outer circumference. The ridge of the crater caused by the firing pin is pretty much mashed flat with the surface of the primer. I guess the pressure is good to go, it appears.

I am still slowly getting the stuff I will need to process my non-crimped .223 Remmington once-fired cases. I found this video with a trimmer in a hand drill. I wonder if you could have 3 small motors set up: one on a footswitch for the trimmer, and and two constant on for the inner and outer chamfer (with 2 tool heads). Then do the entire trimming and chamfering operation for each case in one pass. Has anyone tried this? (Skip forward to about 2:35 to see the drill-mounted trimmer.)

http://youtu.be/l1U78N_iymI

Edited February 14, 2012 by Guest

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Hi BlessTheUSA

Upping the ante on avarice, the little RCBS Trim Mate is pretty nifty. Have enjoyed mine but I like about any gadget.--

http://www.midwayusa...center-110-volt

There are several youtube videos of guys who adapted the inexpensive Lee hand case-trimming bits to fit on the Trim Mate. Trim to length, chamfer in and out, and uniform the primer pockets for good measure..

Hornady also makes a case prep tool in about the same price range.

http://www.midwayusa...io-110-220-volt

====

I don't think there is aanything wrong with your 9mm loads, but I read about another test for primer pressure signs-- You can decap a few fired primers then examine to see if the back end is "mushroomed".. A primer can mushroom out flat as a pancake against the pistol bolt, then excessive pressure can mold the metal out to fill the cavity surrounding the primer hole opening. Making the primers look huge diameter and flush with the back of the case.

It has been said that excessively low pressure can paradoxically cause squashed primers, caused by a different mechanism. Not enough pressure supposedly doesn't force a good enough seal of the primer in the pocket, so when first fired the primer backs out till it stops on the bolt face, and then the subsequent recoil squashes it flat.

Have seen some without-a-doubt roadkill-flat primers in some factory defense ammo. Especially some heavy-loaded .357 mag defense loads. Maybe the deal is-- Once a primer is flat as road kill, then it can't really get any flatter? So maybe the average joe doesn't know how to tell the difference between "safe flat" and "dangerous flat", if they both look about the same?

Edited February 15, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[Guest nicemac]

Upping the ante further to the best possible tool for case trimming:

http://www.giraudtool.com/prod02.htm

Makes trimming, deburring, and chamfering cases almost boring it is so easy. Works like a pencil sharpener and does it all in one step-in about a second… I radically changed my reloading time.