Don't Talk to the Cops?

[BlackHawk93]

I looked for some "proof" as well, but found none.

All I can tell you is that my wife got her BSN from MTSU. She had more than one instructor tell the students that the state of TN could revoke their nursing license for refusing to give care to someone in need. They specifically cited passing by an accident without stopping to see if anyone needed medical attention as one of these grounds.

Naturally it would be hard to prove, but the instructors said it has happened. In fact, around that time the state came out with specialty license plates for nurses. Several instructors said they'd never get one of those plates, because if they passed an accident without stopping to render care, it'd be too easy for them to be tracked down.

Regardless, I'd guess it's a rule of the licensing board for nurses, not an actual law.

Having ferried these professionals around for many years and having finally allowed one to catch me, I can tell you those instructors are citing an old old law and that there is simply no such law, code, or rule that states such. A nurse can only be faulted if she has, like FallGuy said, accepted responsibility for care for an individual and neglects to render said care. And only while employed. An off duty RN is covered by the "Good Samaritan Law" FallGuy mentioned earlier from civil action IF he/she decides to stop and help someone. Having said that, any RN, EMT, or other medical professional worth his/her salt would have a hard time passing by someone in need.

[Fallguy]

Having ferried these professionals around for many years and having finally allowed one to catch me, I can tell you those instructors are citing an old old law and that there is simply no such law, code, or rule that states such. A nurse can only be faulted if she has, like FallGuy said, accepted responsibility for care for an individual and neglects to render said care. And only while employed. An off duty RN is covered by the "Good Samaritan Law" FallGuy mentioned earlier from civil action IF he/she decides to stop and help someone. Having said that, any RN, EMT, or other medical professional worth his/her salt would have a hard time passing by someone in need.

I agree, on the street etc....I'm going to help someone if I can. I was just wanting to say IMO there is no legal obligation to do so....so that when/if there's an injured intruder in your home...you are under no legal obilgation to help them.

[DaveTN]

I agree, on the street etc....I'm going to help someone if I can. I was just wanting to say IMO there is no legal obligation to do so....so that when/if there's an injured intruder in your home...you are under no legal obilgation to help them.

I’m sure that once the threat is over you have a legal responsibility to get them help. I’m not going to look for a law to quote, but I’m pretty sure you can’t shoot someone and then wait until they die to call 911.

[Guest bkelm18]

I’m sure that once the threat is over you have a legal responsibility to get them help. I’m not going to look for a law to quote, but I’m pretty sure you can’t shoot someone and then wait until they die to call 911.

True but there's a difference between calling 911 and in rendering first aid. Personally, I'm not an EMT/Paramedic. I'm not touching them. If it's a good shoot, the fact that I did or did not give them first aid should not come into play.

[DaveTN]

True but there's a difference between calling 911 and in rendering first aid. Personally, I'm not an EMT/Paramedic. I'm not touching them. If it's a good shoot, the fact that I did or did not give them first aid should not come into play.

I’m not suggesting that you are required to give aid or get anywhere near them. I’m suggesting that you have a legal obligation to call for help whether you are a surgeon or a ditch digger. If the Coroner says the guy laid there for an hour and bled out, you may have a problem whether the shooting was justified or not.

[Fallguy]

I’m sure that once the threat is over you have a legal responsibility to get them help. I’m not going to look for a law to quote, but I’m pretty sure you can’t shoot someone and then wait until they die to call 911.

Off course I'm calling 911....I'm just not going to treat their wounds.

When we were talking about giving aid, I didn't think we were talking about making a phone call, but actually giving aid...

[Guest WyattEarp]

While I generally advise talking to an attorney before anyone else, the law in Tennessee is pretty cut and dried on self defense. Like Oh Shoot said, if it's justified you'll know it and the police will too pretty quick when they get there.

As long as you didn't pull a Harry Coleman or hit an innocent person, you'll be fine. If you're really riled up, ask to be taken to the hospital so they can check you out. If not, go home (if you're out), have a shot of whiskey, try and get some sleep, and call me in the morning. Don't call a lawyer at 3 am. There's nothing they can do for you then that they couldn't do the next day.

Excellent post. My attorney told me this near verbatim, with exception to the whiskey. He said you never want to make any statements directly following a shooting, because what you end up saying isnt always accurate. He said the best thing to do is tell the LEO you will be glad to come down some time the next day and give a statement with your attorney and give him the name and office number of your attorney, and then go to bed and try to get some rest. Unless you are being arrested, no need to call your attorney at 3:00 am.

They cant make you go to the police station and say anything if you're choosing not to make statement at that time (unless they have some reason to belueve you are lying or something doesnt add up or make sense) and waiting till the morning after you have met and conferred with your attorney and he/she is present for the questioning.

[billyscott]

If I have wounded someone who was breaking into my house am I going to disarm myself to give CPR or to put pressure on a wound? No. That would put me or my family in danger. I will call 911, but I will keep myself armed and keep the scene secure. I know that if an ambulance is called to a potentially dangerous scene, they won't go in untill the scene is secured by a LEO. When the scene is secured, the LEO calls the ambulance to come in. It's not the LEO's job to render first aid and it's not the EMT's job to risk his or her life. I figure I've got the same rights and responsibilities they do.

[BigK]

...I don't doubt instructors have or still do tell there students they can't drive by an accident, but IMO (which is worth nothing) nothing in the law or The Tennessee Board of Nursing rules/regulations/policies requires them to render aid to someone that have not chosen to begin nurse-patient relationship with as long as they don't discriminate for any of the above reasons.

Having ferried these professionals around for many years and having finally allowed one to catch me, I can tell you those instructors are citing an old old law and that there is simply no such law, code, or rule that states such. A nurse can only be faulted if she has, like FallGuy said, accepted responsibility for care for an individual and neglects to render said care. And only while employed. An off duty RN is covered by the "Good Samaritan Law" FallGuy mentioned earlier from civil action IF he/she decides to stop and help someone. Having said that, any RN, EMT, or other medical professional worth his/her salt would have a hard time passing by someone in need.

Obviously, I was only regurgitating facts I heard second-hand, albeit from what should to be a trustworthy source. I saw much of the same info you saw, but I was too lazy to read it all, LOL.

All the same, let's assume this was an all-inclusive and exhaustive search and there is undisputably no such rule/law. It's not the first time someone mired down in the world of acedemia has given false or out-dated info to their students. College professors, especially, tend to get a little too comfy in their little theoretical world and tend to lose track of the real world.

True or not, my wife says she'll still stopping for the same reason Blackhawk stated, which is the same reason she chose her profession.

Thanks for the leg work, BTW.

[Fallguy]

Obviously, I was only regurgitating facts I heard second-hand, albeit from what should to be a trustworthy source. I saw much of the same info you saw, but I was too lazy to read it all, LOL.

All the same, let's assume this was an all-inclusive and exhaustive search and there is undisputably no such rule/law. It's not the first time someone mired down in the world of acedemia has given false or out-dated info to their students. College professors, especially, tend to get a little too comfy in their little theoretical world and tend to lose track of the real world.

True or not, my wife says she'll still stopping for the same reason Blackhawk stated, which is the same reason she chose her profession.

Thanks for the leg work, BTW.

Well said on each part...

[DaveTN]

Excellent post. My attorney told me this near verbatim, with exception to the whiskey. He said you never want to make any statements directly following a shooting, because what you end up saying isnt always accurate. He said the best thing to do is tell the LEO you will be glad to come down some time the next day and give a statement with your attorney and give him the name and office number of your attorney, and then go to bed and try to get some rest. Unless you are being arrested, no need to call your attorney at 3:00 am.

They cant make you go to the police station and say anything if you're choosing not to make statement at that time (unless they have some reason to belueve you are lying or something doesnt add up or make sense) and waiting till the morning after you have met and conferred with your attorney and he/she is present for the questioning.

Good grief...You think you are going to be standing over a dead body invoking your 5^th amendment rights and the world stops and waits on you because you got the word “Lawyer†out of your mouth?

Some of you need to rethink your plan.

[dlm37015]

in the west hollywood shoot out a few years ago the police on the scene let the second shooter bleed out by not going near him for over an hour after he was down is that right i dont know but it did save the county money i think they were sued and lost but dont recall if some one comes into my home with intent to hurt me or mine there wont be any wounded one of us will be dead

[DaveTN]

in the west hollywood shoot out a few years ago the police on the scene let the second shooter bleed out by not going near him for over an hour after he was down is that right i dont know but it did save the county money i think they were sued and lost but dont recall if some one comes into my home with intent to hurt me or mine there wont be any wounded one of us will be dead

If you are talking about the North Hollywood Bank of America shooting, yes the family of one of the shooters sued. Dirt bags can always find a lawyer to take a case against deep pockets. They ended up settling for an agreement that the Officers wouldn’t sue them for malicious prosecution. The two young sons got nothing; the lawyer got a lot of media attention.

He didn’t get medical attention because all the emergency personnel were busy dealing with what he caused.

[Guest WyattEarp]

Good grief...You think you are going to be standing over a dead body invoking your 5^th amendment rights and the world stops and waits on you because you got the word “Lawyer” out of your mouth?

Some of you need to rethink your plan.

with due respect, you're a police officer or a former police officer. My advice came from a highly respected and well know Nashville attorney.

He sent me this to post up.

New findings support delaying interviews after an Officer Involved shooting

I have my bases covered on what I will do in the event of a self-defense shooting and have discussed this with him this past week. As Mr. Stegall said, there's nothing your lawyer can do for you at 3:00 am, so go to bed call your lawyer in the morning, notify the PD or Sheriff's Dept you're on your way in with your attorney. So really what difference does it make? There is no law that I can find that says I must be questioned at a certain place, at a certain time.

If I'm not charged with a crime, then I have the right to refuse questioning until the next day and I'll notify my attorney accordingly, and arrangements will be made to go answer any and all questions.

Now if you don't like that, I don't know what to tell you. I trust my attorney and the advice he's given me, as it's never misled me before, I have no reason to think it will in the future either.

[DaveTN]

I’m not saying you don’t have a right to remain silent (Although I doubt you have the ability ) and I’m not questioning the advice of an attorney. I’m simply stating that if you think the cops will get back with you whenever it’s convenient; you aren’t in touch with reality.

You would be your own worst enemy in the aftermath of a shooting. You don’t understand what the Police can and can’t do. You need to be able to talk to your attorney at 3AM.

[BigK]

Let's say your house is broken into at 1:00 am and you shot the intruder (dead/alive, whatever). It seems to me that the circumstances alone would be enough to avoid spending the night in jail (hauled off in cuffs), even if you refuse to make a statement without an attorney.

If you were accosted on the way out Walmart at the same time of night, were forced to shoot the BG, and clam up when the cops arrive, I'd be surprised if the cops had any choice but to haul you off in cuffs. Hopefully you'd get to go home after your lawyer gets down there and you make a statement (granted they believe you).

In either case, you have to weigh the damage to your freedom/wallet long-term against being detained for up to 24 hours until they get to the bottom of things and decide whether to arrest you, right?

[DaveTN]

In either case, you have to weigh the damage to your freedom/wallet long-term against being detained for up to 24 hours until they get to the bottom of things and decide whether to arrest you, right?

That’s what I’m saying. You are as much a part of what is about to happen to you as the responding Officers and the DA. Decisions about my future are going to be made; I want to be involved in those. If you don’t think you can make good decisions based on what you did; you need to be able to call someone that handle the situation.

[Guest WyattEarp]

I’m not saying you don’t have a right to remain silent (Although I doubt you have the ability ) and I’m not questioning the advice of an attorney. I’m simply stating that if you think the cops will get back with you whenever it’s convenient; you aren’t in touch with reality.

You would be your own worst enemy in the aftermath of a shooting. You don’t understand what the Police can and can’t do. You need to be able to talk to your attorney at 3AM.

I don't recall ever saying it would just be on my time table or convenient to me. Not quite sure where your assumptions come from, but they are pretty baseless and generalized. I'd gladly give the LEO my attorney's name, and phone number, and say I'm willing to cooperate, but it will be within the presence of my attorney, here's his name and phone number, if you have any questions in the meantime please refer to him, his office opens at 9 am in the morning and he will be glad to talk with you and accompany me in to give a statement.

Not making any statement at all is not an option.

[diablo982]

With all due respect as a former homicide detective, I can tell you making NO STATEMENT at all COULD lead to you being arrested for assault/murder charges. Let's say an officer shows up to your house for a shooting. You put the gun on the table, put your hands up and say, "I'm not speaking with you until I talk to my attorney." The officer is then on his/her own to figure out what happened. If the gun belongs to you, you are the only person in the house, etc. that could be enough probable cause to arrest you. For all the police know, you and your roommate got into a fight and you shot him without reason. They are generally reluctant to let shooting suspects go with a promise of "...I'll get back to you tomorrow." Once you are arrested you will be booked, given a bond, etc. If you decide to make bond, the bail bondsmen are not going to give you a refund if the charges are dropped. (They charge 10 percent of the bond amount, i.e. $50,000 bond = $5,000 to bond company.)

The next day your attorney will show up to the jail and schedule an interview with the police. You will be shackled, led to an interview room, and given a chance to explain yourself. You can then tell the detective the intruder broke into your house and your were defending yourself. Based on your initial interaction with the police they will not take your statement as fact, but will follow up on leads and determine how plausible it is. Assuming your story is true, they will confer with the District Attorney and the charges will be dropped. Of course you could be sitting in jail for some time before that happens, but you probably won't be indicted and it will be over.

Maybe it's just me, but I think making it clear to the responding officers that the bad guy broke into my house would be worth avoiding all the hassle. You don't need to give a detailed statement, but at least point them in the right direction so you don't take a ride to jail. Give the detailed statement with your lawyer.

Edited December 17, 2011 by diablo982

[dlm37015]

If you are talking about the North Hollywood Bank of America shooting, yes the family of one of the shooters sued. Dirt bags can always find a lawyer to take a case against deep pockets. They ended up settling for an agreement that the Officers wouldn’t sue them for malicious prosecution. The two young sons got nothing; the lawyer got a lot of media attention.

He didn’t get medical attention because all the emergency personnel were busy dealing with what he caused.

not taking up for him by any means but it did happen facts is facts but they still got a cash settlement from la county because in the eyes of the court his civil rights were violated

[Guest WyattEarp]

Maybe it's just me, but I think making it clear to the responding officers that the bad guy broke into my house would be worth avoiding all the hassle. You don't need to give a detailed statement, but at least point them in the right direction so you don't take a ride to jail. Give the detailed statement with your lawyer.

i dont think that's unreasonable. sorry if my post implied that.

[BigK]

Maybe it's just me, but I think making it clear to the responding officers that the bad guy broke into my house would be worth avoiding all the hassle. You don't need to give a detailed statement, but at least point them in the right direction so you don't take a ride to jail. Give the detailed statement with your lawyer.

I have just enough faith in the legal system to believe that shooting a BG who broke into my house or tried to attack me in public wouldn't get me prosecuted and even less likely, wouldn't get me convicted of agg assault or murder.

That leaves my biggest remaining concerns being the cost of bond, the sleep-over with a bunch of criminals, and the humiliation of being arrested and hauled off in a police car for my family/neighbors to see.

We can debate whether my faith in the legal system is misplaced, however, I feel pretty sure I'll take the approach diablo and others have suggested. I'm still going to ask for an attorney when I give a full account of the event, but I don't wanna get cuffed and stuffed by leaving them no choice except arresting me.

I suspect we all feel that way, too.

[SupaRice]

Make sure you call the police first, you want to be the first 911 call if the other guy is wounded/runs away - make sure they know you are the victim. It looks really bad if you wait around 10-15 minutes to call 911 and the other guy has already called saying YOU are the bad guy and he is the victim. Soon as you get off the phone with 911 contact a lawyer.

When police arrive: "I was scared for my life" , "I thought he was going to kill me", "I am willing to cooperate in the investigation, but I do not want to give any statements until I have legal counsel present"

Point out evidence, point out any witnesses - aside from that, don't offer up any statements as to detailed information of what happened leading up to the event. The worst thing you can do is to say absolutely nothing, evidence could be overlooked if the person you had to shoot/shoot at ditched their weapon and the investigating officers overlook it.

Massad Ayoob also suggest stating that you want to file a complaint against the other person (assuming they are just wounded/ran off).

+1

From personal experience I can say that if you are in a SD situation, you definitely want to be the first one to call. I wouldn't state anything more than what would otherwise be obvious, like "i was just involved in a shooting in which I had to defend myself please send the police (or tell me where to meet them)".... but you want to be the first one to call.

I have just enough faith in the legal system to believe that shooting a BG who broke into my house or tried to attack me in public wouldn't get me prosecuted and even less likely, wouldn't get me convicted of agg assault or murder.

No offense, but I would say that is a bit naive. At least on the "attack me in public" part. I agree that the home break-in would be a pretty clear cut case, though I wouldn't take the chance in either scenario and start laying down a statement without my lawyer. You've got to remember that the investigating officer, while they have a great deal of influence on the matter I'm sure, doesn't have the final say in what happens to you. The DA could decide to charge you with something, even if it's not recommended by the officer. That happens. And it sucks. Because you'll be spending a TON of cash on lawyers and possibly some time in jail trying to DEFEND yourself all over again, when you were the victim to begin with. And they don't reimburse you for your legal expenses when you're found innocent. Nor time you spent out of work, etc....

I respect the law, and those who enforce it. I also admire the ones that do the best they can with such a difficult job. I won't trust my fate to someone I don't know just because they have a badge.

Edited December 18, 2011 by SupaRice

[DaveTN]

not taking up for him by any means but it did happen facts is facts but they still got a cash settlement from la county because in the eyes of the court his civil rights were violated

It is my understanding the jury was deadlocked and the case ended in a mistrial. The attorney for the family agreed to not pursue the case if the County and the Officers involved agreed to not sue the family for malicious prosecution.

So where did a cash settlement or a ruling that anyone’s civil rights were violated come from?

[DaveTN]

I won't trust my fate to someone I don't know just because they have a badge.

Don’t trust your future and the future of your family to anyone; cop or attorney. That’s why we have these discussions. Attorneys have given their opinions here, Cops and former cops have given theirs, homicide detectives and Officers that have been the first responders have given theirs, people who have been involved in shootings have given theirs, and people who have no experience and no legal training have given theirs.

The responsibility for your future ultimately falls on your shoulders. You need to know the law of this state the best you can. You need to read the law and listen to those with experience and not let your decisions be colored by some hatred or distrust of the system. You need to be able to make the best decisions based on the information available to you. We have seen on this forum that even attorneys licensed to practice law in this state have disagreed on issues, Police Officers have disagreed with presented with specific scenarios. You are left with making your own decisions.

I compare this to a year and half ago when I was diagnosed with cancer. I talked with my family Doctor, Urologist, an Oncologist, and a Surgeon. I was scared; my life and my future were at risk. I was frustrated because three of those four professionals gave me my options and then told me they couldn’t tell me what I needed to do; I had to make that decisions. The forth told me “You only have one real option, and here is whyâ€. Based on what the other Doctors had told me and the research I had to do; he was right. I decided to do what he said. Did I make the right decision? We still don’t know, but things look good. I had more professionals and more experience helping me than you will have in a shooting, and I still ended up having to make the call. I will have to live or die with that decision, but I used every resource available to me to make an informed decision. Going to prison would be worse than death to me. So I try to know everything I can about the law and the procedures where I am.