Honest Opinions on small 380's??

[LeadWaster]

I bought the Taurus TCP about a year ago and have had great luck with it. A couple of mis-feeds, FTF early along, but after 100 rounds, it's functioning great. I polished the ramp and took a little off the nose of the extractor. There's a DIY thread on taurusarmed.com on how to do this.

At the gun show in Knoxville last weekend, you could pick up the TCP for $219. saw one dealer that had it with the nylon case and 2 mags for this price, but most of them were in the new packaging...a plastic box, no nylon case, and only one mag. I think this is what we'll see more of in the future. A friend bought an LCP for $279, and the dealer payed the state fee... out the door at about $300 with tax.

If money were no object, I've have the Sig 238. No doubt the top of the pile of 380's. But, I'm happy with my TCP and would buy it again.

[byoung]

I have the lcp its a great gun

[Jonnin]

Wow! Thanks to all for the overwhelming response. You all gave me alot to think about. And as expected, I am still just as torn...if not more so now. haha..but at least i have a little more education and experience of others under my belt.

I think my next step now will be to go and look at that Sig and compare the weight and feel to the Ruger as well as price. May go do that tomorrow. Then if I like that Sig and bring it home..wife is going to shoot me with it!! ha.

My wife said "what a cute little gun" ... "can I have it" ... so we got 2 of them after I let her try mine out and she would not give it back. You never know, I was sort of expecting the same response "what did you need another one for" sort of comment.

[Oh Shoot]

I'd opt for a large .380. That way you can more easily pummel the bad guy once you've emptied the mag.

- OS

[Guest msparks]

I didn't read all of the thread. Wanted to give me honest opinion of small .380's though.

Can't hit squat with them. The round is less effective that I would like. For a few dollars more you can get something that shoots more accurately and a more powerful cartridge.

That's my opinion and I'm stickin to it.

[terryd37398]

I have had a Colt Mustang for about 14 years. I love it. May not be the most modern or advanced model out there but I love it.

[Patton]

The P3AT, LCP, and TCP are all essentially the same design. Ruger copied the Keltec, added a slide lock, and made it a little prettier and smoother. Taurus copied the Keltec and made it swoopy looking. Functionally, they're all the same.

.

The LCp does not lock back only the TCP.

[Patton]

The best 380 on the market is a 38spl jframe or LCR. Yes, I said it.

[Garufa]

I'd opt for a large .380. That way you can more easily pummel the bad guy once you've emptied the mag.

- OS

The Hi-Point 380 is absurd.

[Guest Markx]

I had the LCP and felt the grip was simply too small. I never felt very comfortable shooting it. The trigger pull is ridiculously long also, so is the LC9. Had both and got rid of them. I like the concept of a pocket .380, but since I am a bigger guy I need a little thicker grip, not much, just a little more to feel comfortable. I picked up a Bodyguard and it felt a little thicker than the LCP. That is probably the direction I will end up going.

I am in Blount County also and like Bill's Outpost but find I can order from Buds and have it delivered to Money to Go pawn shop and save myself money. Buds has LCP for $289 and $15 transfer fee at MtG, can't beat it.

[Guest bobby b]

My two cents:

My first carry gun was a KelTec P3AT. Unpacked it, admired it, (it's truly well-designed ergonomically), cleaned it, and took it to the range with 200 rounds.

Quit after about 100. For each and every load of six , I had at least one malfunction - either a FTL, a complete failure to eject, or a stovepipe. I didn't make it through even one complete magazine without a jam.

So, off to the internets I went, to read the forums. Learned what could be done by a non-pro like me, involving 2000-grit wet-dry abrasive, a Dremel, a file, and single-malt scotch whiskey. (The whiskey was really my addition, but everyone seemed to think it was useful advice.) I deburred and smoothed and shaped and cleaned and lubed, and then I went back to the range.

Again, didn't make it to 100 rounds. FTE's, FTL's, stovepipes, and lots of these smiley things which involve something smashing against the leading nose of each and every bullet, dinging a moderately deep crescent-shaped "smile" across the face of each bullet, which undoubtedly has some effect on accuracy and impact characteristics.

Sent it back to Kel-Tek with a nice note explaining my problems. Got it back in three weeks. They had nicely reshaped the feed ramp, ground and buffed it mirror-smooth, cleaned up some roughness on the outside of the barrel, test-fired it with two bullets, and sent it back, uncleaned. I cleaned it, admired the nice finishing work, and took it back to the range.

Didn't make it to one hundred shots. FTE's, FTL's, and SP's from at least two bullets in each magazine. Rangemaster suggested I buy a four-foot piece of steel cable, attach the gun, and use it as a mace. General laughter throughout the range. (Don't test your Kel-Tec on cop day at the range. Tough crowd.)

Took it to a machinist friend, who examined it, made derogatory under-his-breath comments about craft being a dying concept, and mounted it into one of his huge machines that turn expensive and exotic metals into metal shavings of no value. He ground at it, and buffed it, and adjusted it, and lubed it, and then we loaded it up and shot some tin cans out back. Or tried to shoot them, at least - it was hard getting a grip and aim figured out when, for each magazine of six bullets, you need to de-jam the gun twice. (Sigh.)

So, we're still working out the bugs. It has gotten better - now it'll jam up maybe once per ten magazines of six shots - but I cannot trust it as a carry gun.

(Now, generic stuff.) 380's, because of their size and weight, tend to be problematic even when functioning as intended.

- They're so short that small hand movements and insubstantial trigger deflections make for wide misses.

- They're so light that the 380 load hurts your hand more than most bigger guns - it shoots with a very sharp "crack", and you can end up with a too-sore-to-shoot hand after fifty or sixty shots.

- Bench-mounting this gun and firing 18 shots at 20 feet gives a six-to-eight-inch spread with no repeats (meaning, you'll see 18 holes in your target when you're done.) This is not wonderful accuracy.

- Even a moderate limp-wrist will deflect and absorb the recoil force that is needed to slam the slide back hard enough to both eject the spent cartridge and firmly load the new one.

- (This one's a guess with no empirical basis:) there's something a little comical and jeer-worthy about the sight of a grown man yelling "halt!" and pointing at you a gun small enough to be completely hidden by his hand. Even a small Glock 9 has some intimidation factor going for it when you aim it at someone, maybe enough to cause an attacker to think twice - but the sight of the Kel-Tec (or most of the mini-380's) inspires little fear. No, a P3AT will inspire no fear on sight - you'll have to pull the trigger to make someone take it seriously.

So I've been practicing - hard and often - and now I can throw the P3AT at someone from twenty feet away and hit CBM nine out of ten times. It's heavy enough, with enough sharp edges, so that getting hit by it is gonna hurt. Problem is, it's only a one-shot gun that way.

[Oh Shoot]

...So I've been practicing - hard and often - and now I can throw the P3AT at someone from twenty feet away and hit CBM nine out of ten times. It's heavy enough, with enough sharp edges, so that getting hit by it is gonna hurt. Problem is, it's only a one-shot gun that way.

Good first post. Welcome. You show promise.

What's ep/mn ?

- OS

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Not mentioned yet as far as I can tell is the Beretta Cheetah, which is a fine shooting excellently made accurate .380. Unfortunately the Cheetah is big enough to be more difficult to pocket-carry than my 3.5" barrel 9mm Kahr P9, which is also big enough to shoot good. I can almost get all my fingers on the P9's handle and it still mostly disappears in cargo pants pockets.

Was ogling guns today, and the old style Walther PPK .380 is a handsome thang which shoots pretty good. But it is lots bigger than the tiny .380's. Almost as big a profile as my P9, and weighs more than the P9. and is wider than the P9. And it is a blowback gun.

Both of the above would be neat guns to have in a collection, but dunno if they offer any carry advantages compared to modern small 9mm guns.

[Tennjed]

Didn't make it to one hundred shots. FTE's, FTL's, and SP's from at least two bullets in each magazine. Rangemaster suggested I buy a four-foot piece of steel cable, attach the gun, and use it as a mace. General laughter throughout the range. (Don't test your Kel-Tec on cop day at the range. Tough crowd.)

.

It is unfortunate you had so much trouble. I guess your experience is pretty comman since Kel Tec is barely surviving and they have nothing that resembles a loyal following.

My experience however has been positive. I have a P3AT with a little of 1000 rounds through it since about March. Not one single FTE,FTF,FTL, or SP's. Not 1. They were all reloads though so maybe my gun is total junk and I am just a Super Reloader. My ammo is soooo good even a Kel Tec can shoot it!

[Guest pfries]

So I've been practicing - hard and often - and now I can throw the P3AT at someone from twenty feet away and hit CBM nine out of ten times. It's heavy enough, with enough sharp edges, so that getting hit by it is gonna hurt. Problem is, it's only a one-shot gun that way.

[Guest bulluck533]

Lets see honest opinion? GO get a 9 instead

[Richard995]

Thanks for starting this post. I am looking for a .380 for my wife. She doesn't like the little .25 she has now. I was leaning towards the Ruger with the lazer to help her with her aim.

[Jonnin]

Heh bobby b, that was a well told story! A comment or 2 though ... a small dent in the bullets will not change the flight path of a 380 by much for the duration of the flight. It would have to fly hundreds of yards before the errors became noticable unless you have the worlds one and only 380 target pistol... which the kel tec certainly is NOT. I have worked around enough aerospace to absorb that much about aerodynamics, at least, so you can fire those dented rounds safely and accurately enough so long as it is only the little dent on the nose caused by missing the chamber during cycle. If the sides of the round are damaged, throw it away. Also, its not the round, there are large frame 380s (beretta cheetah, for example) that are quite nice shooters. Its these pocket pistols which are all competing for who can make the cheapest gun with the most plastic that are the problem. Again, I would point at the sig (which we did already) to say its not the size either --- compare the recoil of the sig (locked breech) to the others (blowback) and the triggers (1911 SA vs 1 inch heavy DAO) and, well, the low recoil light trigger gun does well. I have made a 1 inch 5 shot group at 10 yards with it, testing it for accuracy. I have been unable to limpwrist jam it, though it probably can be done. Its not the size, weight, caliber, or anything else that is causing your troubles. Its the design flaws combined with ultra cheap mass production that are causing your problems. I hope you have a reliable gun that you can carry, but if you are looking and have not given up on the 380, borrow one of those 238s to try before you give up entirely on pocket pistols. Even the 238s have had problems, sig has made several minor changes to clear them up and the latest generation seems much more stable. If you do not mind going up 1 size and weight category, I can tell you that makarovs are reliable and very accurate. They are much, much heavier, but that helps recoil quite a bit, and you can get them in 380 instead of the russian caliber if you like paying twice as much for your ammo. I am impressed at how much effort you put into your 380 to get it working, most would have given up long before. Hopefully you have or can find a replacement that you like and trust.

[JAB]

--- compare the recoil of the sig (locked breech) to the others (blowback) and the triggers (1911 SA vs 1 inch heavy DAO) and, well, the low recoil light trigger gun does well.

Just had to point out that the P3AT (as well as the Little Copied Pistol and, I assume, the TCP) are locked breech guns, not blowback designs. That is one of the things that was so innovative about Kel Tec's P3AT - and I believe one of the things that got Ruger so much praise for 'innovation' when they copied what Kel Tec had already been doing for years at that point. The P3AT was based on Kel Tec's own P32.

Also, the reason people were concerned about 'smileys' didn't have all that much to do with accuracy. More often, the concerns were related to two other issues:

1. That the bullet might be 'set back' enough to cause a dangerous increase in pressure and

2. That the damage to the nose of JHPs could hinder expansion

I say 'were' because smileys were mostly an issue with the first generation P3AT. At some point, a P3AT owner came up with a mod that was called the 'rampectomy' in which part of the feed ramp was removed in order to lessen/prevent smileys. When the second generation P3AT came out, Kel Tec had incorporated a ramp redesign from the factory. My first gen gave smileys like mad. I've never seen a smiley out of my second gen.

[chances R]

A lot of the comments seem to mirror the Shooting Times article.....not a fan of the KEL-TEC and the others were very good.

[Jonnin]

good to know, I didnt realize they were locked breech but its been a while since I held one. Having shot both, I wonder why the kel tec and lcp have so much more felt recoil than the sig then? It could be imagined, but or just the feel of the grip, /shurg. I just know the sig is the only one of the bunch that didnt sting my hand after a box of ammo.

[JAB]

Having shot both, I wonder why the kel tec and lcp have so much more felt recoil than the sig then?

I think it is because the P3AT and LCP are so thin and light (a blessing and a curse sort of thing.) I threw a Handall, Jr. on mine and honestly don't feel much recoil from it. That said, the recoil is significant enough that I can't shoot it weak-handed with much accuracy. It isn't that it hurts my hand or that I limp-wrist when I shoot it left-handed. Instead, it is simply that the thin grips tend to 'twist' in my hand no matter how tightly I try to hold it when shooting weak-hand only (I do just fine with it shooting one handed with my strong hand.) That plays havoc with my aim.

Honestly, the little fellahs might be downright unbearable if they were straight blowback guns. I also have an FEG SMC-380. It is basically a PPK (or maybe a PPKS) clone. It is slightly larger and a bit thicker than the P3AT but, being all metal, is much heavier. It is very accurate (I am finding that, when it comes to semiautos, the Walther style seems to be the most 'natural' for me - I also do well with my CZ 82) but, being a blowback gun, I'd put the felt recoil - at least for me - just about on the level with the P3AT.

[peejman]

Thanks for starting this post. I am looking for a .380 for my wife. She doesn't like the little .25 she has now. I was leaning towards the Ruger with the lazer to help her with her aim.

The laser can be a help or a distraction, depending on how steady her hands are. If you've got steady hands, the laser is nice. If you've got shaky hands, the laser wobbling around all over the place can be very distracting and discouraging for some people.

[kieefer]

If you can find a SIG P230... best .380 ever. IMO...

I saw one of these today, the price of $550.00 seems to me to be high? Is this about right?

[Guest BEARMAN]

One firearm not mentioned here, and is antiquated by most standards...the Beretta model 1934 .380 acp.

The most reliable .380 ever made, bar none. They can still be found for under $300. and are made like a Sherman tank & will last forever. My choice in a .380, however, may not be yourn.

-Bearman-