Entry level (i.e. economical) AR Complete Upper

[Guest]

Hello,

I am doing the "AR Upper search".... So many choices. What are you guys' thoughts on either of these?

Palmetto State Armory 16'' CMV Chrome-lined, MP inspected, M4 Complete upper

Palmetto State Armory 14.7'' 5.56 M4 Chrome-lined Upper with pinned A2 flash hider

It looks like each has several options that increase the price. I'll do more research on that.

They have 1/7 twist, and it looks like 1/9 is currently the favorite. With the shorter barrel, wouldn't the round have less muzzle velocity, thus needing less twist? They are chrome-lined, so that's a plus for durability, IIRC.

This looks like a medium-profile barrel, whereas the first two were light profile, right? Palmetto State Armory 16'' Hammer-Forged, Mid-length, upper

Although I'd prefer to stick to a reasonable budget, and I know that means tradeoffs, I'd like to get around 16" barrel length for easy carry, the ability to mount a 5-oz light I already have (a set of rails?), and a chrome/medium barrel for accuracy and durability. If you guys have any suggestions over the ones I linked, I'm definately all ears. There are so many options out there I'm sure I've just scratched the surface. Oh, and I need to find a rear sight, too. So much to figure out!

[mikegideon]

Don't get the 14.7". Has nothing to do with performance. Just means that the muzzle device has to be permanently attached. It just isn't worth it. I like lighter profile barrels, because they make for a light rifle. I would pick the first one.

[Guest]

The first one doesn't really specify (that I could tell), so is it safe to assume when it says 16" that that is the barrel itself, with an unpinned muzzle device, so say about 17.5" overall? The 1.5" isn't really that big of a deal, so I'd be fine with that. Just don't want to get really long.

I believe I could attach my light to the existing hand guards, although that is less than idea for long-range accuracy, since they are not free-float. Am I on track so far? Down the road I might upgrade to a free-float system eventually, but to get my feet wet I want to keep costs down while maintaining decent 100-yd accuracy.

Thanks!

[mikegideon]

The first one doesn't really specify (that I could tell), so is it safe to assume when it says 16" that that is the barrel itself, with an unpinned muzzle device, so say about 17.5" overall? The 1.5" isn't really that big of a deal, so I'd be fine with that. Just don't want to get really long.

I believe I could attach my light to the existing hand guards, although that is less than idea for long-range accuracy, since they are not free-float. Am I on track so far? Down the road I might upgrade to a free-float system eventually, but to get my feet wet I want to keep costs down while maintaining decent 100-yd accuracy.

Thanks!

Yep, that's the barrel length, which is the legal minimum. Yes, around 17.5" total. looks like an M4 profile on the barrel.

There... didn't take you long to talk yourself out of a pinned flash hider. MOST free float handguards require you to remove the gas block to install them. The only way to remove the gas block is to remove the flash hider too. Removing a pinned flash hider is a gun smithing job. Personally, I absolutely hate the fat cheap hanguards that come with most uppers. Drop 28 bucks on one of these...

MOE Handguard AR-15

It is set up to mount small rail sections where you want them. Mounting a light is easy. The ergos are great, especially compared to the cheesey one.

BTW, the MOE handguard just snaps on. I can change one out in 5 minutes or less

[PolePosition]

You are correct about the 16". That length refers to barrel itself, not including the muzzle device length.

Does your light not need a rail to mount on? I don't think there is anywhere for a direct mount or rail attachment on the stock handguards. As far as long range precision goes, I'd recommend not only the FF rails, but invest in a nice scope and a new barrel as well. The 3 of them together will make the biggest difference in long range precision (ammo and technique aside).

*Edit - the guy above me beat me to it about the handguards. Yes get the Magpul MOE. I just received one myself.

[mikegideon]

You are correct about the 16". That length refers to barrel itself, not including the muzzle device length.

Does your light not need a rail to mount on? I don't think there is anywhere for a direct mount or rail attachment on the stock handguards. As far as long range precision goes, I'd recommend not only the FF rails, but invest in a nice scope and a new barrel as well. The 3 of them together will make the biggest difference in long range precision (ammo and technique aside).

The great thing about an AR... you can change it as you go. I'm glad that I started with a plain ole carbine. long rage accuracy came later for me, once I had my arms around the platform. I still have my original carbine (well, at least the upper receiver) . It's still a carbine

[Guest]

Yep, that's the barrel length, which is the legal minimum. Yes, around 17.5" total. looks like an M4 profile on the barrel.

There... didn't take you long to talk yourself out of a pinned flash hider. MOST free float handguards require you to remove the gas block to install them. The only way to remove the gas block is to remove the flash hider too. Removing a pinned flash hider is a gun smithing job. Personally, I absolutely hate the fat cheap hanguards that come with most uppers. Drop 28 bucks on one of these...

MOE Handguard AR-15

The PSA page in question (the 16" barrel one) has a couple of MOE options that add to the cost. I'll have to read up on MOE later this evening to actually figure out each one is. It looks like the PSA options add more than $28 so if it's basically the same upgrade, maybe I'll go with the stock handguards from PSA and add the MOE handguard from Midway, and have either one on hand.

As far as the question about my light, it is a 1" body 4Sevens Maelstrom G5 that I picked up as a Black Friday special. I'll just need to find a mount that attaches to the handguard with a 1" ring for the light. But surely that's pretty common, so I'm not worried about that.

One question I do still have is why are the PSA barrels all 1-7 twist? Is that just what they personally liked and went with that? I'm sure it'll be fine, just noticed a lot of guys like 1-9 so I figured PSA would offer both.

I have PSA lower and a DMPS complete parts kit, so I think the only other things I need are the stock, buffer tube, and a basic rear site that could be cowitnessed with a red-dot or scope (flip-up sight?).

The parts kit came from gunkings.com in about 2 days, with free shipping too. Very pleased. http://gunkings.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=105_110&products_id=1090

Edited December 3, 2011 by Guest

[mikegideon]

I think 1:7 is standard military issue now. Both my carbines are 1:9, but it doesn't matter for the kind of ammo you shoot in a carbine. The 1:7 will handle bigger bullets, like 77gr matchkings, but will cause some light varmint bullets to disintegrate in flight. No big deal on a carbine.

[johnnychimpo]

One question I do still have is why are the PSA barrels all 1-7 twist? Is that just what they personally liked and went with that? I'm sure it'll be fine, just noticed a lot of guys like 1-9 so I figured PSA would offer both.

Most if not all of their 1-7" barrels are made by FN. As far as I know FN doesn't produce 1-9" barrels.

[Murgatroy]

Most if not all of their 1-7" barrels are made by FN. As far as I know FN doesn't produce 1-9" barrels.

Only their hammer forged barrels are, or at least, they are the only ones they list as being made by FN. If they go through the trouble of listing it for the hammer forged, but not the regular CMV, I would assume it is only the hammer forged that are made by FN.

Just my thought.

I am paying attention to all of these threads as well, as I haven't ordered my uppers yet. However, I am heavily leaning toward this one.

[Guest ukhayes]

One question I do still have is why are the PSA barrels all 1-7 twist? DPMS AR15 Lower Receiver Parts Kit ( Free Shipping) [LRPK-1] - $62.95 : Gunkings.com, 10-22 and AR15 Parts and Accessories

Most dedicated AR shooters prefer the 1:7 twist while AR competition shooters seem to like the 1:8. My Colt, Sabre, Noveske and LWRC are all 1:7.

[TMF]

Don't get the 14.7". Has nothing to do with performance. Just means that the muzzle device has to be permanently attached. It just isn't worth it. I like lighter profile barrels, because they make for a light rifle. I would pick the first one.

I have two rifles w/ pinned flash suppressors. I built one for myself years ago and had a YHM Phantom pinned onto a 14.5 M4 profile barrel and really like the looks. I was making a replica of my original work gun at the time and couldn't settle for a 16 in. I'm also committed to it and have never had a desire to change out the muzzle device with a different one. I liked the look so much (and having it just a little shorter) that I built a rifle for my dad in the same manner. I wouldn't recommend it for someone that intends on significantly modifying their weapon later, but if you can commit to one muzzle device for that rifle it looks fine. Besides, if money isn't an problem you can always just change out the barrel later if you want.

+ 1 on the MOE handguards. They don't cost much and are worth the money. They also look nice for being so inexpensive. Of course, hose clamps and a maglite is how the old guys use to do it so they tell me.

Edited to add: BTW, that is a very good price on that upper. I don't own a PSA rifle but have heard good things. I think this is as economical as you can get without buying used (I'm looking at the 16in 1/7 w/ BCG & CH for 379.99). You should have no issues getting a quality complete lower for around $250. Altogether that's a $650 new AR.

Edited December 4, 2011 by TMF 18B

[mikegideon]

To me, the possible need to remove the gas block is more of a deal than changing muzzle devices. Some folks, maybe most folks, may never have to do that. I've had to do it more than once. Personally, I absolutely hate the combination of an a2 front site and an Eotech. I will (did) replace the A2 with a YHM flipper. A pinned flash hider would have turned that into a nightmare. Instead, I only had to pop for a new crush washer. To top it off, it's a dumbass law, so I'm rebelling in the only way I can

[Backon4]

I like the PSA uppers but JSE has some nice ones too for really good prices.

[PolePosition]

Something else worth mentioning is perhaps deciding if you want the carbine or the mid-length gas system. The original link posted was for the carbine gas but 16" barrels function "better" with mid-length gas systems. Without going into dwell time and whatnot, the mid-length gas essentially smooths out the recoil. Follow-up shots, bump-firing, etc., have a pretty different feel to them when shooting on a carbine vs mid-length gas on a 16" barrel. Just something to consider.

[TMF]

To me, the possible need to remove the gas block is more of a deal than changing muzzle devices. Some folks, maybe most folks, may never have to do that. I've had to do it more than once.

I guess I didn't think about that either. I've stuck with a regular front sight gas block for mine, and I'm so set in my builds that I never will alter my uppers. I just keep building more uppers and somehow a lower gets attached to it at some point. It seems like they're building themselves lately. I agree, if you're planning on altering it later then you have to keep your options open.

[mikegideon]

I guess I didn't think about that either. I've stuck with a regular front sight gas block for mine, and I'm so set in my builds that I never will alter my uppers. I just keep building more uppers and somehow a lower gets attached to it at some point. It seems like they're building themselves lately. I agree, if you're planning on altering it later then you have to keep your options open.

If AR's weren't so adapatable, I probably wouldn't have as many. In my case, an optic change caused a gas block change. My Eotech is my favorite sight. It wasn't before I got the A2 out of my way. I don't ever use red Loctite either

[Troutburger]

Midway had some Del-ton 1x9 m4 rifle kits. Everything except the lower. They were under $400.

[jdi731]

Only their hammer forged barrels are, or at least, they are the only ones they list as being made by FN. If they go through the trouble of listing it for the hammer forged, but not the regular CMV, I would assume it is only the hammer forged that are made by FN.

You're right Murgatroy, not ALL of their barrels are made by FN but the majority of them are... Edited December 5, 2011 by jdi731

[Il Duce]

Look at a BCM with no handguard.

[mikegideon]

Look at a BCM with no handguard.

Good idea

[Guest]

I haven't yet had the time to sit down and pick out the buttstock and buffer tube. Honestly I prefer the stock buttstock over the MOE one based on looks, but haven't tried an MOE one.

Anyway, moral of the story (or rather question) is will it matter what ammunition I get based on what buffer tube I get, or vice versa? I would think (and hope) not, but I saw a post somewhere (not TGO) saying that the Remington UMC wouldn't work well with the guy's particular buffer tube and was shortstroking. Is this really any concern? I was going to go ahead and pick up the ammo if its all the same, and hopefully get some time in the next couple of days to pick out the stock, buffer tube, etc.

If it matters, what I'm looking at is some Remington .223 UMC 55grain. I assume this is ok with a 1/7 barrel too. I might add some wolf steel-cased ammo later on too since it's cheap.

Edit: I guess I should specify the three options I was looking at the closest right now:

Remington UMC 55g at $257 / k

Wolf WPA Military classic 55g at $180 / k ....but not reloadable.

Lake City brass 5.56mm 55g M193 green tip Boxer primed at $250 / 900 rds

each plus a small shipping charge.

Thanks!

Edited December 7, 2011 by Guest

[Guest]

I settled on the Lake City 5.56.

Now I am looking at stocks. Any reason this stock and mil-spec tube from PSA would not be a wise choice? Palmetto State Armory Classic Stock Kit

Then I believe I'll need a castle nut tool to install the stock. Good enough? Tapco Enhanced AR15/M4 Stock Wrench

I was thinking something along the lines of this flip-up sight, which I would use for the time being as full-time iron sights, and eventually add some sort of optics and leave these flip-ups on as a backup. Is this one a good choice and value? AR-15/M16 MBUS GEN 2 SIGHT SYSTEM - Brownells

Then, other than the "complete upper" I think I'll have everything.... i have the lower, LPK, and mags already.

Cool!

[Il Duce]

I just want to offer this advice. I went the cheap route and regretted it. Save up a little bit longer and get better parts. A BCM upper is not much more than what you are looking at and the quality is so much better as is their BCG. As far as a LPK look at the G and R LPK at WWW.GandRtactical.com

If you want a cheap stock I recommend the barebones BCM one as it is A) Cheap Excellent quality and C) Lighter than the Magpul Moe.

You may spend 150 more but the quality and customer service you will receive makes up for it.

Scrape the Magpul MBUS front sight as it is not made to go on a gas block and it is the incorrect height. It will melt. Ask me how I know.

[TMF]

Scrape the Magpul MBUS front sight as it is not made to go on a gas block and it is the incorrect height. It will melt. Ask me how I know.

Ewwww.... that had to have sparked some choice explatives on the range.