Over penetration. Really?

[strickj]

A few posts in another thread spawned this...

Has there ever been a case where a bullet has over penetrated (reads; gone completely through someone) and struck another?

I'm looking for real world proof of over penetration from a handgun.

The scenarios that are always used:

1) You shoot someone in a parking lot. The bullet "over penetrates" and hits a bystander on the other side of the parking lot.

2) You shoot someone in your home. The bullet "over penetrates", goes through a wall and hits someone.

3) You shoot someone and the bullet "over penetrates" and hits someone standing right behind the attacker.

Logic:

1) How is a bullet going to retain enough velocity, after going through several inches of flesh and bone, and continue with enough force to travel that amount of distance?

2) How is a bullet going to retain enough velocity, after going through several inches of flesh and bone, a few layers of drywall and 2x4s, and continue with enough force to hit someone?

3) Why the hell are you shooting at someone with a loved one standing so close?

I'm inclined to believe that "over penetration" is nothing more then a myth until proven otherwise. And even then, the chances of it actually happening is going to be less then your chances of being struck by lightening while sitting on the toilet.

So why is this always brought up and discussed as an important issue to consider when choosing carry rounds and handguns?

[LagerHead]

According to this article in the New York Times, yes, it does happen.

Hollow Point Ammo Saves Lives, Backers Say

[Mike.357]

I dunno if it has ever happened.

I believe it is discussed because people don't want to inadvertantly hit someone with their bullet

[strickj]

According to this article in the New York Times, yes, it does happen.

Hollow Point Ammo Saves Lives, Backers Say

Well, not really. It defines over penetration as a bullet that travels through obstacles (walls, doors, etc.) as well as ricochets.

I believe it is discussed because people don't want to inadvertantly hit someone with their bullet

And this is the reason why you shouldn't fire when you have friendlies downrange.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Well you never know, might accidentally get ahold of a Magic Bullet!

[Dolomite_supafly]

Penetration is a stange thing. It can do the same thing 99% of the time then change. It has more to do with velocity than bullet design. A HP that doesn't open up acts like a FMJ and a FMJ that comes apart upon impact dumps energy like a SP or a HP. Hollow points are designed to work within a velocity range, too fast and it will not penetrate hardly at all too slow and it will overpenetrate because it doesn't open up like it should.

The faster the bullet the more they tend to come apart upon impact with anything. There is a fine line, too slow and it doesn't penetrate a lot. Too fast and it does't penetrate a lot. In between the the penetration can be perfect or even become become excessive. It is best to choose the round for your needs and your firearm.

http://stevespages.com/jpg/bestbullet.jpg

Take note of the Sierra prohunter. At 3,100 fps it only penetrated 12.3" but at 1,900 fps it went over 60" (yes 5 feet). Or the Winchester silvertip, 3,100 fps and it penetrated 10.5" and at 1,700 fps it travelled 46". And think of this, most 45 ACP ball ammo will penetrate more than either of these at 3,100 fps. The energy that is dumped into the target is totally different between the two. I have been shot with a 45 ACP loaded with FMJ (not going to get into what happened). It went straight through and it was minuted before I realized UI had been shot. Has the same shot been with a one of the 3,100 fps rifle rounds it would have been a different story altogether.

Some standard .22 lr lead round nose bullets will penetrate more than centerfire defensive rounds. The 60 grain SSS .22 has been proven to pass throguh 18+ inches of geletin reliably. And in some cases even 24" of gelatin.

To give you another example I was testing some crazy stuff and did this. I had some 95 grain FMJ 380 bullets that I loaded in a 9mm and fired out of a rifle. I started out with the bullet at roughly 1300-1400 fps if my memoy serves me right. That bullet went through two 1 gallon jugs of water without much fuss. Same bullet, same jugs, same rifle except this time the bullets were at 2,000 fps. The FMJ bullet never made it out of the first jug and completely destroyed the jug and the bullet. There was jacket material and lead in the first jug.

It also depends on the bullet design. SMK's tend to come apart more readily because of their thinner jacket than say a military FMJ which has a much thicker jacket. I actaully use SMK's in loads I might have to use for nuisance animals because they are accurate and devastating as long as the velocity is up.

Shotgun slugs will go through a lot because they have a lot of mass but aren't travelling at velocities where they come apart as easily upon impact. Take a slug that normally travels at 1,300-1,500 fps and push it beyond 2,000 and it will act totally different.

It is also hard to tell what a bullet is going to do inside the intended target. It may mushroom beautifully and never make it out of the target or it may never open up at all and act like a FMJ. Because of this you can't rely on a bullet stopping within a target and so you need to be aware of what is behind. Even on the remote chance the bullet does make it out of the target you are still responsible for what it does.

Dolomite

[LagerHead]

Well, not really. It defines over penetration as a bullet that travels through obstacles (walls, doors, etc.) as well as ricochets.

It says people too.

"In New York City during the last two years, seven of the bystanders shot by the police were struck by bullets that passed through other people, walls or doors, the kind of shootings that would not be expected with hollow-points."

Although they don't list dates, times, or names it certainly insinuates that it did happen.

[Guest pfries]

FBI Notes on Misplaced Over-penetration Fears; FBI Miami Shootout

From the FBI's notes on the 10 mm (PDF link).

The fear of over-penetration is a misconception, which was created back when law enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollowpoint ammunition. In the process, we began to believe it ourselves. First, our lawyers are unaware of any sucessful legal action resulting from the injury of a bystander due to a round over-penetrating the subject. We are aware of numerous incidents of Agents/officers being killed because their round did not penetrate enough (Grogan and Dove, for example). Further, if you examine shooting statistics you will see that officers hit the subject somewhere around 20-30% of the time. Thus 70-80% of shots fired never hit their intended target, and nobody ever worries about them - only the ones that might "over-penetrate" the bad guy. Third, as our testing shows, even the most frangible bullets designed specifically for shallow penetration will plug up when striking wood or wallboard and then penetrate like full metal jacket ammunition. We are aware of successful legal actions where an innocent party has been struck by a shot passing through a wall, but as we have proven, ALL of them will do that.

Grogan and Dove were the two FBI agents killed in the 1986 Miami shootout with a pair of bank robbers named Platt and Matix. Five other agents were wounded. Matix fired only one shot, which missed. Platt did all of the rest of the fighting against the FBI agents and arriving Metro-Dade police officers. He soaked up numerous bullet wounds, including several rounds of 12 gauge 00 buckshot that hit his legs as he wriggled out of a wrecked car, and one 9 mm hollowpoint round that entered through his arm early in the fight and stopped just short of his heart. Platt was pretty much everyone's worst nightmare - ex-military, well-practiced, and unrelenting.

As a result of ammunition failures in Miami, the FBI undertook a program of extensive ammunition testing. The FBI concluded that a minimum of 12 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin was necessary for reliable incapacitation, and "18 inches is better."

See also:

- Firearms Tactical report on the shootout

- FBI Report on 4/11/1986

[Makiaveli]

Theoretically it wouldn't automatically hit bone, and unless you hit the center of "center mass" on someone built like me, I would think it could travel through some of my "thermal padding" and come out the other side.

Then again, that isn't exactly scientific proof.

Apparently it can happen.... Link

Edited December 1, 2011 by Makiaveli

[strickj]

Well, we have confirmation that it can happen with the body of a 4 year old. Anymore reports from 150lb+ persons?

It says people too.

Although they don't list dates, times, or names it certainly insinuates that it did happen.

I actually meant to list people above.... not sure why I didn't.

The story you linked does not confirm it ever happening. For all we know, the over penetrating could be from a FMJ riffle round through drywall or a car door. Or a FMJ handgun round ricocheting off of an exposed ceiling support\pipe.

[mikegideon]

Oh yeah. The '86 Miami shootout. One guy shoots up a bunch of FBI agents with a Mini 14, and they blamed it on the handguns, specifically their calibers. The gov wouldn't admit that you simply don't bring a pistol to a carbine fight, and THAT's why they got shot up.

[lowbud]

Dirty mind thought this was something else. Sorry. Carry on..

[Glock30]

Dirty mind thought this was something else. Sorry. Carry on..

So there I was, reading about FMJ vs JHP and worrying about hitting some innocent bystander.... then I read this. I laughed out loud.

Easily the Post of the Day!

Logic:

1) How is a bullet going to retain enough velocity, after going through several inches of flesh and bone, and continue with enough force to travel that amount of distance?

2) How is a bullet going to retain enough velocity, after going through several inches of flesh and bone, a few layers of drywall and 2x4s, and continue with enough force to hit someone?

3) Why the hell are you shooting at someone with a loved one standing so close?

So why is this always brought up and discussed as an important issue to consider when choosing carry rounds and handguns?

Becaaaaaaaaaaause with any luck, my choice of carry round will dump ALL of its energy into its intended target. Not only do I not want to hit any other person/object, my primary objective is to incapacitate said target.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Glock30

[TMF]

I don't think it's even a concern with pistol caliber rounds. I have seen stories regarding drive-by gangland shootings where stray rounds entered homes and struck innocents, however, the chances of it happening in a SELF DEFENSE scenario is slim, especially if the event occurs within a home. Anything is possible but that doesn't mean it's probable. Concern about my pistol rounds overpenetrating an intruder doesn't keep me awake at night.

High velocity rifle rounds, however, would be a concern of mine and I wouldn't suggest anyone use a rifle for home defense if they live in a populated area. They go everywhere upon ricochet and still retain enough energy to cause death. This includes HP rounds. Plus they WILL burn through a person and still maintain a good enough velocity to kill, especially if passing through soft tissue and not impacting bone.

[BigK]

Good question. With all the shootings reported, you'd think there'd be more instances if it was a serious concern. I obviously does happen, but not often enough compared to the over-penetration hype.

[strickj]

Dirty mind thought this was something else. Sorry. Carry on..

That's a myth too. It's never happened.... though, there are guys on the internets that will lay claim

[Guest WingMan380]

Dirty mind thought this was something else. Sorry. Carry on..

LMAO!! Yeah, I have to admit my mind went there too!

[lowbud]

That's a myth too. It's never happened.... though, there are guys on the internets that will lay claim

Kinda what I was thinking..

[Jonnin]

The most likely thing I could see would be an apartment, going thru the wall or ceiling. Probability & stats would indicate that there are a few small zones of danger (the bullet trajectories) and a lot of safe places to be (everywhere else) so the odds of another person unrelated to the incident at hand being in the line of fire are slim, and slimmer still if you assume the innocent people will get behind cover or duck down when the shooting starts. It probably has happened somewhere, sometime, at least once, but there would be more actual incidents listed if it were a big issue. However, consider your audience here... a majority of the people here agree that an empty gun is dangerous (no such thing, right?), that a gun is able to fire and hit someone if they are n the 120 degree arc in front of it (its pointed at me /panic!), that a gun with the action open can fire, and so on. That is good --- we are, in general, a safety first community, but that leads to these discussions of possible but highly improbable ways to get into trouble with a gun. I would say the odds of someone being killed by overpenetration from a good guy's shots are extremely high against, at least tens of thousands to 1, if you take all the defensive shootings against the ones where overpenetration actually happened. As in, a person is more likely to die in a plane crash than be shot for being behind a thug who is being shot.

[BigK]

As Jonnin said, consider your audience here. Regardless of what conclusions we draw from any evidence presented, I think most of us are going to go on asssuming that if it "can" happen, we have to take steps to prevent it from happpening to us.

It's like saying "I hate you Bell Witch" however many times into a mirror on a full moon at midnight or whatever. Probably BS, but why go out of your way to tempt fate, LOL.

[BrasilNuts]

Is there anyone here that would be willing to stand behind 14" of ballistic gel or a interior wall while I try various types of ammo to see if any of them over penetrate?

[Jonsaiga]

A few posts in another thread spawned this...

Has there ever been a case where a bullet has over penetrated (reads; gone completely through someone) and struck another?

I'm looking for real world proof of over penetration from a handgun.

The scenarios that are always used:

1) You shoot someone in a parking lot. The bullet "over penetrates" and hits a bystander on the other side of the parking lot.

2) You shoot someone in your home. The bullet "over penetrates", goes through a wall and hits someone.

3) You shoot someone and the bullet "over penetrates" and hits someone standing right behind the attacker.

Logic:

1) How is a bullet going to retain enough velocity, after going through several inches of flesh and bone, and continue with enough force to travel that amount of distance?

2) How is a bullet going to retain enough velocity, after going through several inches of flesh and bone, a few layers of drywall and 2x4s, and continue with enough force to hit someone?

3) Why the hell are you shooting at someone with a loved one standing so close?

I'm inclined to believe that "over penetration" is nothing more then a myth until proven otherwise. And even then, the chances of it actually happening is going to be less then your chances of being struck by lightening while sitting on the toilet.

So why is this always brought up and discussed as an important issue to consider when choosing carry rounds and handguns?

I have personally seen it on two seperate occasions in the ER within the last six months. First one was minor injuries, and the second..... not so lucky. Massad Ayoob has written numerous articles on the subject in the past citing specific cases were bullets struck unintended people after passing through people. IIRC NYPD had the most cases with somewhere around 21 shoot throughs, wtih several serious wounds a some fatalities, in a limited time span related to their then issued 115gr FMJ 9mm ammo.

And this is the reason why you shouldn't fire when you have friendlies downrange.

WE generally don't get to choose how the scenario is going to go down. Depending on how close the threat is, it is quite possible they might obscure our view of people behind them.

Good question. With all the shootings reported, you'd think there'd be more instances if it was a serious concern. I obviously does happen, but not often enough compared to the over-penetration hype.

Often what is reported is not entirely accurate. They are in a race to be the first releasing the breaking news of the day. Can't tell you how often we see the news regarding someone who ended up a patient of ours and what is reported is not consistant with the injuries or stories we get from EMS, LEO, patients and family involved.

Bottom line is we are responsible for ever single round we fire, and every single round has a lawyer attached to it. You can discount the notion of it all you want but if one of your rounds strikes an unintended person, be it from a shoot through, miss or richocet, you can and likely will be sued, civilly if nothing else. Hollow points can and do penetrate completely through sometimes but they do it far less often than FMJ loads. You know the risks and it is just a step to mitigate them as much as possible.

If you want to test out penetration of both fmj and jhp then go to the grocery store buy a couple hams and a rack of ribs. Put a layer of ribs on the front and back of the hams and set them in a row about a foot from each other(to limit deflection) or shoot them individually with a 5 gal bucket of water behind them to simulate the bystander. Meat should also be body temp warm as cold meat reacts differently. Take no ones word for it and prove it for yourself!

[strickj]

Is there anyone here that would be willing to stand behind 14" of ballistic gel or a interior wall while I try various types of ammo to see if any of them over penetrate?

Nope. But I'm also not going to let you shoot a BB gun off in my direction, either.

I have personally seen it on two seperate occasions in the ER within the last six months. First one was minor injuries, and the second..... not so lucky. Massad Ayoob has written numerous articles on the subject in the past citing specific cases were bullets struck unintended people after passing through people. IIRC NYPD had the most cases with somewhere around 21 shoot throughs, wtih several serious wounds a some fatalities, in a limited time span related to their then issued 115gr FMJ 9mm ammo.

Thanks. Care to give some more details? Handgun round? What did they go through?

And I wouldn't quote Massad Ayoob in one of my threads.

He is a complete idiot. He's the inventor of such redonkulousness. According to him, you'll be sued, with out a doubt, for shooting an attacker and you'll be shot for pulling your pants up (like a cop does).

WE generally don't get to choose how the scenario is going to go down. Depending on how close the threat is, it is quite possible they might obscure our view of people behind them.

Like your 80lb wife standing behind a 400lb attacker?

This is the perfect excuse for banging a fat chick. Just tell your buddies it's for tactical reasons. "She'll be easier to see in a self defense situation".

[Makiaveli]

Well, we have confirmation that it can happen with the body of a 4 year old. Anymore reports from 150lb+ persons?

That was the only news story I could come up with, seriously expected to see more when I checked in today.

The only personal experience I have with this is at a previous job we had a idiot fire a 20 gauge slug thru the floor of his apt. and it lodged in the kitchen counter of the apt below him.

[Jonsaiga]

Nope. But I'm also not going to let you shoot a BB gun off in my direction, either.

+1

Thanks. Care to give some more details? Handgun round? What did they go through?

Handgun rounds, non-expanding round nose ammo, lower extremities at unknown distance and handgun, fmj upper torso, within 15 feet. About as detailed as I can get.

And I wouldn't quote Massad Ayoob in one of my threads.

He is a complete idiot. He's the inventor of such redonkulousness. According to him, you'll be sued, with out a doubt, for shooting an attacker and you'll be shot for pulling your pants up (like a cop does).

Idiot or not(I personally don't think so but I don't agree with everything he says either), he cites researchable cases of it actually happening.

Like your 80lb wife standing behind a 400lb attacker?

She is about 100lbs actually , seriously though.... at 7 yards with arm fully extended and palm facing out, my hand fully obscures the view of my 5' tall 28" wide upright freezer. A 150lb torso at roughly 1' wide at arms length will block a much larger area than one might think.

This is the perfect excuse for banging a fat chick. Just tell your buddies it's for tactical reasons. "She'll be easier to see in a self defense situation".

You know what they say about fat chicks........ they keep you warm in the winter, give you shade in the summer and its obvious they can cook.