Should non-violent first offense felons loose their gun rights?

[Guest conditionZERO]

Ok here is my point with this....I am in no way an advocate for felons rights. The way I see it is almost every year there are several new felony offenses on the books both federally and state. Becoming a convicted felon in today's society is much easier than it used to be.

When someone commits a felonious act they are stripped of their constitutional rights. I agree with this form of punishment, but for first time non-violent offenders, I believe these rights should be restored upon the completion of their sentences. This includes 2nd amendment rights.

Some states do reinstate the rights of convicted felons automatically. Some require that they apply to a clemency board, and have to appear before said board.

There is no distinction made between someone who stabbed someone half to death or someone that illegally downloaded a movie from the internet. Obviously their punishments are substantially different, but when you hear the term "convicted felon" most people view them with equal disgust and distrust.

In my opinion, their is no justifiable reason that someone who commits a non-violent first offense should be stripped of their right to bear arms. How does this make sense? It seems to me that this is just one more tactic by the US government to disarm American citizens, and in a sense bypass the US Constitution.

If they are the deciders of what is wrong or right, lawful and unlawful or misdemeanor or felony, then this could happen to any of us. So many people are convicted of crimes they were not even aware they were committing. This is how confusing and overloaded our legal system is today. There are felonies on the books today that 20 years ago no one would have batted an eye over.

Obviously my argument does not include violent offenders, repeat offenders, drug offenders, and damn sure not rapists and child molesters. But someone that might have went out with some buddies one night had a few beers and decided to throw a rock in a window, stupid as it may be he does NOT deserve to loose the right to defend himself his family and his property of one stupid ass mistake.

Now I believe this right should be granted back to non-violent first offenders who's crime did not involve violence or a firearm. But if any first time offender were granted their right back and re-offended then I agree that they have given their rights up. As the land of second chances, we should be more open to those who may have made one isolated mistake, and not mark them for life. That marked person could very well one day be you. When you fight for the rights of others, you fight for yours as well.

"Draw me never without reason.

Holster me never without Honor"

[macville]

I say crimes with firearms and other weapons, drug crimes, people with DUI's, and people who are being treated with SERIOUS mental illness would be the people who shouldn't own firearms. Felony is a catch-all, feel good thing. I would say that people who did drug/alcohol crimes long ago, and mental illness that's been cured, should have their rights restored.

[Jonnin]

Im not sure throwing a rock thru a window is a felony (?). One of the biggest complaints currently is the war on drugs efforts that made any drug possession a felony right off, causing many very young people (college age) to get a black record over a single joint or whatever. Meanwhile simple assault (unarmed?), domestic abuse, and a few other violent crimes are not always felony charges, often no charges are made at all or no jail time. Its a broken system, and a difficult to fix one as it is hard to change what is already on the books, even when it happens it takes years to get a change made. What needs to happen here, IMHO, is to revise what is a felony and what is not, rather than change the rules to be a complicated mess of this crime loses your rights, that crime does not ordeal. Re define felonies (or some new term, loss of rights crimes?) to be just few things, such as any act of violence upon a person, or any crime committed where a weapon is used (not possessed, but used (including threat of use, brandished, etc). Too simple for lawyer, but that is all that is needed -- covers the sorts of crimes and criminals that should not have any weapon (gun or not) .

[Guest bkelm18]

I do believe non-violent, first time offenders should have their rights restored. Violent or repeat offenders, no. They've proven they can't function in a civilized society.

[Guest conditionZERO]

see my point exactly...no you wouldnt think throwing a rock through a window would be a felony charge, usually just a simple misdemeanor vandalism, well...it all depends on which window you throw it through. For example, throwing a rock through a bank window after hours or any storefront window can be a burglary charge, and if someone was stupid enough to do this to a bank, they could very well be facing Federal attempted bank robbery charges....overkill ya think???

Your other points are spot on and I agree, but I keep wondering when people are going to wake up and band together to push for legislation like this. the possible felony charges one could find themselves facing today are getting outrageous! And I dont even want to get started with domestic violence, medical marijuana patients and PTSD veterans...it PISSES me off!! Those are some of the biggest violations of an individuals 2nd amendment right I have ever seen! Our government is forgetting that bearing arms is a right not a privilege!

[oldogy]

The quote below is from one of my favorite authors. She was ahead of her time. Fitting to this discussion. I think someone on this forum uses the quote in their signature line.

oldogy

There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals...when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws." - Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged - 1957)

[DaveTN]

Most felonies require intent.

What felonies do you think people are committing and don’t know they are a felony?

I guess in some states throwing a rock though a window could be a felony if the price of the window was high enough. Throwing a rock through a window is not burglary or Bank Robbery.

Owning arms is a right, bearing them is not. In this state it’s a privilege you can buy; but not if you are a convicted felon or have been convicted for some misdemeanors such as Domestic Violence or multiple DUI.

You do have recourse. After a period of time you can ask the court for an expungement. But In Tennessee if you were convicted of a violent crime or drug charges; you don’t get your gun rights back.

People do stupid things; DUI and drugs are two of them; that’s why they can’t have guns.

I am working for trying to get more gun rights for people that deserve them; I don’t give a rip of they ever give a convicted felon his gun rights back. They are the reason some of the public wants gun control. We aren’t breaking into their houses and throwing rocks through their windows.

[Guest conditionZERO]

This is a good point DaveTN, but not all felonies require intent. Hundreds of young guys (18-21 yoa) every year in this country go to a club or a bar and meet girls, like most guys on this planet at that age. IT just so happens that these unlucky guys happen to meet a girl who lied about her age, has a fake ID and even looks old enough to be there. Long story short...brief relationship, guy finds out the truth and ends the relationship, the girl is upset over this and has him reported to police, guy is arrested on felony sex offense charges.

If you could please explain to me what felonious intent any of these young men had at the time they met a girl who they thought was around their age in a BAR had, I am all ears. Whether their is a moral issue there, that is one thing, but if meeting a woman in a bar and having a one night stand is a felony, we are all screwed! And yes this happens all the time...the craziest part is, it cant even be used as part of a defendants case that the minor lied about her age and produced a fake ID, due to the laws in place to protect minors. These laws are there to protect young children, not teenage sluts trying to pretend to be older to land a college dude, them have them prosecuted when they dont get their spoiled ass way.

I respect your opinion sir, but making vague statements like " I don’t give a rip of they ever give a convicted felon his gun rights back. They are the reason some of the public wants gun control." is only perpetuating the problem. You are doing exactly what i pointed out in my open by blaming any and all with the label convicted felon for gun control laws. Many people convicted of felonies never used a firearm or any type of violence in a criminal act. And for anyone, including you sir to sit there and act like a glorified super law abiding citizen is absurd! Everyone has done something in life they are not proud of and its more than likely most have done something that could land them in jail...just because you were never caught does not give you the right to cast such negative judgement on someone who was caught making what very possibly could be there ONLY big mistake in their lives.

This is such a losing battle.

[TMF]

Yeah, I agree that there should be a process to have those rights restored upon completion of sentence. Maybe not an automatic restoration, but one that can be sought through the legal system. I think back to some of the silly things I did between 18-21 and I'm lucky I never got caught. I don't think of myself as a bad person or criminal, but if things happened differently that's exactly what I would be.

[strickj]

conditionZERO, are you a felon? It's pretty convincing to me that you are, based on your posts in two threads.

If you could please explain to me what felonious intent any of these young men had at the time they met a girl who they thought was around their age in a BAR had, I am all ears. Whether their is a moral issue there, that is one thing, but if meeting a woman in a bar and having a one night stand is a felony, we are all screwed! And yes this happens all the time...

The more I read your posts, the more I realize you're pulling facts out of your ass, to put it kindly.

In TN, there has to be a four year age difference before statutory rape can be charged. Not sure about you, but I've never seen a 14 year old at a bar drinking.

I challenge you to provide some proof of a guy getting charged with a felony for this in TN. Since it happens all the time and all, this should be no problem.

I also challenge you to provide the same proof for throwing rocks through windows.

[Guest conditionZERO]

No I am not a felon...the story I mentioned above actually happened to my older brother back in 99 in Florida. Even Fl. has a 16-23 law, but that is only with parental consent. I am fresh out of the army after 13 years of service. The reason I am so passionate about this is because After seeing my brother go through what he did and what he continues to go through, and knowing him personally, it really brings it home just how scary and easily someone can lose their rights.

This is not the only area of civil rights I am passionate about. I guess I see things differently than others, but I want to protect rights for everyone. My whole point here is not just restoration of gun rights to felons, but prevention of loss of rights for others.

if you honestly believe that law enforcement can or will not charge you with the highest possible offense they can, then I will not try to sway you. People get arrested everyday for ridiculous reasons, that does not always mean that the state attorney will pick up the charges, but yes it happens.

How would you know if you have never seen a 14 year old in a bar drinking? If they are in there on a fake ID and look older than they are you wouldnt know! I am not going to sit here and research case law, but I can tell you that it happens often enough that some states including FL are considering legislation to change the laws surrounding these events.

This was just an example of how easily and unknowingly someone could find themselves on the wrong side of the law. It just scares me that it is that easy for the government to strip your rights away from you, and know you do not always have to have felonious intent.

I am not surprised that my inquiry draws suspicion that I may be a felon myself because that is how most people in society operate, and that is exactly what I am trying to change. I am only fighting for those that may have made an isolated mistake in their lives, I dont believe they desrve a life sentence for one mistake.

As for proof, all I can tell you to do is ask around, ask a few different LEO's what they would do if they came upon someone who just broke a bank window out...some will tell you vandalism some will tell you worse. If you consider what I have been told by LEO's as pulling it out of my ass then so be it sir.

Every state has laws that differ in many areas, but my goal is to reach a national reform, not for those who have lost their rights, but for those of us that want to keep them. I just happen to not be so naive to think im just fine as long as I dont set out to commit a crime....POLICE STATE! what does that mean to you?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

There are so many laws to snare one nowadays, I wonder which are easiest to get you

with? A non-violent felon seems to be kind of contradictory sometimes. There are plenty

of laws that simply do not need to be on the books, but that may never change without

more people becoming felons before that is resolved. I don't really know the answer, except

"justice" needs to replace "legal" in our hodgepodge system of laws.

The only certainty I see is a continuance of power transferred from the people to the

government and the more laws enacted, the more of a problem with your question.

[strickj]

No I am not a felon...the story I mentioned above actually happened to my older brother back in 99 in Florida. Even Fl. has a 16-23 law, but that is only with parental consent. I am fresh out of the army after 13 years of service. The reason I am so passionate about this is because After seeing my brother go through what he did and what he continues to go through, and knowing him personally, it really brings it home just how scary and easily someone can lose their rights.

Your brother slept with a 14 year old and is now a felon?

Or did he throw a rock through a window or download a movie?

How would you know if you have never seen a 14 year old in a bar drinking?

Um, because I know what a 14 year old girl looks like.

I am not going to sit here and research case law, but I can tell you that it happens often enough that some states including FL are considering legislation to change the laws surrounding these events.

If it happens all the time, then a quick Google search will pop up plenty of results. Provide one.

I am not surprised that my inquiry draws suspicion that I may be a felon myself because that is how most people in society operate, and that is exactly what I am trying to change.

You're right. It is how we operate. You create this thread trying to to desensitize the term felon, bump an old thread about felons in possession of black powder firearms, and you place a WTB ad for a black powder gun.

I am only fighting for those that may have made an isolated mistake in their lives, I dont believe they desrve a life sentence for one mistake.

I can get on board with that. I too believe in second chances.

I just happen to not be so naive to think im just fine as long as I dont set out to commit a crime....POLICE STATE! what does that mean to you?

It means to me that I better not sleep with a 14 year old girl or break into a bank. POLICE STATE!

[Makiaveli]

Owning arms is a right, bearing them is not.

I have to disagree with this statement due to my interpretation of the U.S. Constitution.

[Guest conditionZERO]

Wow...i am a huge history buff and an active civil war reenactor. Even tho I know I owe you no explenation of myself I will start by saying this, I enjoy and collect BP firearms. The history that goes along with them is very fascinating to me and they are the foundation that all of our modern firearms were built upon. I am also an avid 1911 collector as well as the Colt 1873 SAA. Lord I hope this doesnt start a Glock vs 1911 argument.

I got started in reading and posting threads simply because of my brother. He came to me with a question a few months ago concerning which type of BP firearm he could own. Even I was not that sure, so I relied on google, and threads like these for answers. In my vast array of searches I came upon that old thread and just thought I would share some information I found, and it is still somewhat confusing.

I also came across some information about felons having their gun rights restored so I shared this with my brother. He is currently working toward this, but because I respect the opinion of knowledgeable gun owners on this site, I wanted to get their spin on it.

Yes my brother met a girl in an 18+ club that had a fake ID, she was not 14 she was 16 he was 22. Although it could not be used as part of his defense, it was clear to the state attorney what happened. The judge also stated on record that she could pass for drinking age and did not hold the bar liable for anything. Because of this they did not pursue sexual charges on my brother but offered him a plea that included felony contributing. Regardless of ignorance of the law or that he was committing a crime, in the states eyes a crime was committed so he took the plea. My brother never denied the incident and is not a bad person by any means. This happened in 99 and this is the only run in with the law he has ever had. He completed 5 years of probation and now has a family and a successful business.

Im sure you know everything there is to know about everything sir, but once again I ask that you do not cast a broad shadow of negativity on everyone convicted of a felony, they truly are not all bad people. I am not trying to desensitize the term felon, I am simply trying to get feedback on how others view the possibility of some of them who are not violent or repeat offenders, getting their firearms rights back.

I sure am glad that we have people like you in the world tho that have never done anything wrong...ever. I sounded just like you before this happened to my brother, and probably for a little while afterward too. It wasnt until I saw it everyday and learned more about what was going on that my outlook changed. Please dont misunderstand me, I have the same disgust and animosity towards violent and repeat offenders, gang bangers, child molesters and dope dealers as you my friend, but somewhere, somehow there has to be a separation between the two.

I do not like having my integrity torn to shreds, especially by someone who does not even know me. I will just end by saying I appreciate your comments and opinions, thats why I posted this, but please try to step outside the box and be a little more open minded.

[Guest cardcutter]

I am going to play devils advocate on this one. I have mixed feelings on this issue. On one hand when you are sentenced to prison you are to "pay your debt to society" well when your sentence is up, is your debt not paid?

For instance a sixteen year old lunkhead swipes a car and goes joy riding. he gets caught and goes to jail.does his time and gets out. flash forward twenty or thirty years of being a model citizen he is still unable to exercise his rights as a citizen IE: vote or own guns. I don't think that is right.

A man has a wife who is just plain nuts. they have an argument.she calls the law and he goes to jail.He has not been proved guilty of any crime yet his rights to own a gun are suspended. That is just not right.

All that being said I think that we should overhaul the penal system drastically. I think that every felon should spend a mandatory 70% of his sentence at hard labor,20% in a rehab program learning how to live in and make a living in our society.Then and only then should they be eligible for any time off.

Parole should only be granted if someone of good standing is willing to accept responsibility for the parolee's action while on Parole. Parole boards would be a lot more selective if they were held responsible for those they release.

I am through venting now. I am sure I managed to tick some off on each side of this issue.

Edited December 1, 2011 by cardcutter
spelling

[Guest conditionZERO]

I am going to play devils advocate on this one. I have mixed feelings on this issue. On one hand when you are sentenced to prison you are to "pay your debt to society" well when your sentence is up, is your debt not paid?

For instance a sixteen year old lunkhead swipes a car and goes joy riding. he gets caught and goes to jail.does his time and gets out. flash forward twenty or thirty years of being a model citizen he is still unable to exercise his rights as a citizen IE: vote or own guns. I don't think that is right.

A man has a wife who is just plain nuts. they have an argument.she calls the law and he goes to jail.He has not been proved guilty of any crime yet his rights to own a gun are suspended. That is just not right.

All that being said I think that we should overhaul the penal system drastically. I think that every felon should spend a mandatory 70% of his sentence at hard labor,20% in a rehab program learning how to live in and make a living in our society.Then and only then should they be eligible for any time off.

Parole should only be granted if someone of good standing is willing to accept responsibility for the parolee's action while on Parole. Parole boards would be a lot more selective if they were held responsible for those they release.

I am through venting now. I am sure I managed to tick some off on each side of this issue.

Actually cardcutter that is one of the fairest responses Ive seen yet. I completely agree with you, I just wish more people saw it that way. Thank you for such a well thought response.

[DaveTN]

I have to disagree with this statement due to my interpretation of the U.S. Constitution.

The Supreme Court was established and given authority by the Constitution. They are the highest authority on Constitutional issues and they answer to no one. They have said you have a right to own guns, but the states will determine how and when they are carried. They had no choice but to rule that way. The only other option they had was to rule that the 2^nd wasn’t an individual right at all. Had they done that states could have outlawed firearm possession all together.

You can argue it’s not right; but the violation of rights issue is over unless they decide to revisit it.

Personally I’m not hanging my right to bear arms on the 2^nd amendment; I believe I have an inalienable right to bear arms. The courts don’t agree with that either though.

[Guest conditionZERO]

Personally I’m not hanging my right to bear arms on the 2^nd amendment; I believe I have an inalienable right to bear arms. The courts don’t agree with that either though.

Very well put.

[strickj]

Yes my brother met a girl in an 18+ club that had a fake ID, she was not 14 she was 16 he was 22. Although it could not be used as part of his defense, it was clear to the state attorney what happened. The judge also stated on record that she could pass for drinking age and did not hold the bar liable for anything. Because of this they did not pursue sexual charges on my brother but offered him a plea that included felony contributing. Regardless of ignorance of the law or that he was committing a crime, in the states eyes a crime was committed so he took the plea. My brother never denied the incident and is not a bad person by any means. This happened in 99 and this is the only run in with the law he has ever had. He completed 5 years of probation and now has a family and a successful business.

Sucks for your brother.

I would have not accepted the deal.

Im sure you know everything there is to know about everything sir, but once again I ask that you do not cast a broad shadow of negativity on everyone convicted of a felony, they truly are not all bad people. I am not trying to desensitize the term felon, I am simply trying to get feedback on how others view the possibility of some of them who are not violent or repeat offenders, getting their firearms rights back.

I sure am glad that we have people like you in the world tho that have never done anything wrong...ever. I sounded just like you before this happened to my brother, and probably for a little while afterward too. It wasnt until I saw it everyday and learned more about what was going on that my outlook changed. Please dont misunderstand me, I have the same disgust and animosity towards violent and repeat offenders, gang bangers, child molesters and dope dealers as you my friend, but somewhere, somehow there has to be a separation between the two.

You have a PM coming your way that may open your eyes a bit. I have a bit more knowledge then you might think...

[Guest conditionZERO]

Sucks for your brother.

I would have not accepted the deal.

You have a PM coming your way that may open your eyes a bit. I have a bit more knowledge then you might think...

Much appreciated friend. thank you

[Guest lostpass]

A non-violent felon seems to be kind of contradictory sometimes.

It seems contradictory to me most of the time. Smuggling drugs can get you, what, 30 years in jail? That's not just a felony but a big one. Selling oxycontin is perfectly legal if you're a pharmacy but do it without a license and that's a major felony. Even though you, and the pharmacy, are selling the oxy's for the same reason (profit). Carrying a frearm and shooting yourself in the leg is a felony in some places and I don't think it should be until you shoot someone else.

On the other hand I do get some non violent felonies. Bernie Madoff stole people's retirement savings, some of those folks are going to suffer a lot because of him. Child predators that don't use violence are just as bad, in my opinion, as those who do. I think that should be a felony. Some things are just too egregious to just call it non violent and let it go.

Such a gray area with no easy answers. Well, unless you're Bernie Madoff. Then you got hung buy your own stupidity. He should've called it "Madoff Investment Firm" and waited for a government bailout.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I wasn't referring to drugs or anything related. I was referring to becoming a felon without

committing any act, like some of the gun crimes, however. Is it not a felony to possess

a machine gun without a tax stamp? I think one would do serious time in a barred facility

without doing anything more than doing just that and the ATF knocks on your door.

There are a lot more on the Federal Register than just gun laws, too. This is out of the

scope of the OP's topic, but there are a lot of traps set that could make one a felon,

other than a situation like statutory rape or the like.

Felony can be an overused word. There are crimes so heinous that the word "felony"

doesn't fit. Some crimes that were misdemeanors have been made felonies nowadays,

I'll bet, but I don't know enough to understand the process.

I know of one individual who had been in prison for breaking into a house and went to

prison for a term. Later, he got it expunged, somehow, and got a job where I work. I

don't know how all that stuff works, but I wonder sometimes. He probably wouldn't

have gotten his job, otherwise.

Edited December 2, 2011 by 6.8 AR

[Makiaveli]

The Supreme Court was established and given authority by the Constitution. They are the highest authority on Constitutional issues and they answer to no one. They have said you have a right to own guns, but the states will determine how and when they are carried. They had no choice but to rule that way. The only other option they had was to rule that the 2^nd wasn’t an individual right at all. Had they done that states could have outlawed firearm possession all together.

You can argue it’s not right; but the violation of rights issue is over unless they decide to revisit it.

Personally I’m not hanging my right to bear arms on the 2^nd amendment; I believe I have an inalienable right to bear arms. The courts don’t agree with that either though.

We agree, I was just not going to tacitly agree with that statement since I believe the SC was wrong. Probably shouldn't have said anything, but hearing that pisses me off since it seems asinine.

Rule of thumb when reading my posts, I don't have issues. I have subscriptions

[Tim Nunan]

The Supreme Court was established and given authority by the Constitution. They are the highest authority on Constitutional issues and they answer to no one.

Really? No check on the Judicial branch of government? Actually there is, though seldom if ever used.