Magazine Loading -- First Round FMJ Followed by JHP?

[xRUSTYx]

So,

I've got to thinking over the past week or so about my carry gun & ammo.

After watching *several* video's on "accidental discharges" it got me thinking.

1) A JHP through the leg would tear is pretty good, while a FMJ round would likely pierce and exit without too much damage (assuming you don't hit an artery) I understand, the best way not to have an accidental discharge is trigger finger discipline, but again, accidents do happen.

2) An FMJ round seems like it would penetrate obstacles better (Car Glass, Window, Door, etc...)

Would it be safer & smarter to carry an FMJ round chambered, followed up by JHP self defense rounds in a mag? This would A) Be safer in the case of an accidental discharge Self Defense incase an obstacle lay in the way.

Perhaps this has been discussed, but it's been on my mind!

Appreciate any and all comments!

[Pain103]

I wouldn't do that. A decent caliber round is going to pierce vehicle glass, doors, and whatnot. Look at bonded rounds if your worried about penetration.

[Guest Red5]

I'll stick with my JPH from start to finish. As you said, keep your finger off the trigger. As for the possible obstacle, if you have to shoot through the window, door, etc, are you in immediate fear for you life? At least that's how the DA would see it.

[Garufa]

There is no such thing as an "accidental discharge". Keep your booger hook off the bang switch and the gun will not go off.

Why would you not load a SD round first?

[xRUSTYx]

There is no such thing as an "accidental discharge". Keep your booger hook off the bang switch and the gun will not go off.

Why would you not load a SD round first?

Accidental Discharges do happen, even to very experienced shooters. Yes, its a matter of keeping your "booger hook off the bank switch" but other things can cause discharges. Leather holsters can as well ... SAFETY WARNING! Worn Leather Holsters Can Cause Accidental Discharges!

I'm not here to debate whether accidental discharges happen or not, simply asking a question and to hear peoples thoughts, that's all

So Far -- Doesn't look like anyone seems to agree with me -- which is fine -- What can I say, I have some crazy idea's when I sit home, drink, and play COD haha

[Glock30]

Here's my thought:

If you have time for one and only one shot and your life or your beloved's life is on the line: Do you want a FMJ or JHP hitting your target?

[BlackHawk93]

Another consideration is do you want that FMJ round you might possibly have to fire completely penetrating a perpetrator if he is just a few feet from you and hitting an innocent person nearby? Or your child in the next room? No, I want ALL my rounds to be JHP's. Good question though.

[Steelharp]

My (potentially useless thoughts, but what I do) choice is to have JHP in the pipe, and about the first 3-4 rds in the mag. After that, they're FMJ. My thinking is that after a few shots... I would think potential targets would have found cover. Then, the extra penetration might be needed. (I know, I know; armchair commando. Sorry.)

[Guest PapaB]

My (potentially useless thoughts, but what I do) choice is to have JHP in the pipe, and about the first 3-4 rds in the mag. After that, they're FMJ. My thinking is that after a few shots... I would think potential targets would have found cover. Then, the extra penetration might be needed. (I know, I know; armchair commando. Sorry.)

You haven't been around many emergency situations have you? Some people freak out and freeze in place, they're unable to find cover because they can't move and stay in harms way. You should really rethink your concept.

As to the OP, you might be setting yourself up for complacency. Knowing your 1st round will do less damage may allow you to subconciously become less diligent. It's better to remain focused and practise, practise, practise safety and skills.

[True Grit]

I use Glaser Safety Silver Slugs as the chambered round and Critical defense in the magazines. I practice not to have negligent discharges. In a SD situation I know my first shot will be rapid and point and shoot. If it hits off center then I don"t want it to pass through into a building hurting innocent people. I have not seen this in the forum but this is what Glaser has designed this particular round.

[Guest tngw1500se]

Another consideration is do you want that FMJ round you might possibly have to fire completely penetrating a perpetrator if he is just a few feet from you and hitting an innocent person nearby? Or your child in the next room? No, I want ALL my rounds to be JHP's. Good question though.

+1

[daddyo]

While the possibility always exists for a negligent discharge, it is also possible to overthink things.

[Steelharp]

You haven't been around many emergency situations have you?

Absolutely zero, PapaB; that's why I predicated it with "potentially useless" and ended with "armchair commando." I would love any input from you that would help.

[UncleJak]

For my carry weapon, I use all JHP. BUT, in my AK I alternate between hollows and regulars. I don't really know why, I just did it that way. Seemed like a good idea at the time...

[Guest bkelm18]

Nope. If I've only got time to get one shot off in a self defense situation, I want that shot to be JHP. Not FMJ. Yes, ND's happen to professionals. ND's happen when you get complacent. Always be mindful of your weapon and it's status and you'll never have an ND. Simply, keep your booger finger off the bang switch.

[wcsc12]

I wouldn't Rusty just simply because a FMJ round is more likely to penetrate your target and go through them than a JHP. Remember that you are responsible for EVERY ROUND FIRED. So if one goes through the bad guy and hits little suzy in the chest, guess who's in trouble.

[Guest nicemac]

Accidental Discharges do happen, even to very experienced shooters. Yes, its a matter of keeping your "booger hook off the bank switch" but other things can cause discharges. Leather holsters can as well ... SAFETY WARNING! Worn Leather Holsters Can Cause Accidental Discharges!

I'm not here to debate whether accidental discharges happen or not, simply asking a question and to hear peoples thoughts, that's all

So Far -- Doesn't look like anyone seems to agree with me -- which is fine -- What can I say, I have some crazy idea's when I sit home, drink, and play COD haha

Will agree with Garufa; there are no accidental discharges that injure anyone. They are negligent discharges. If your weapon is pointed in a safe direction, and your finger is not on–and does not pull–the trigger, the gun will not go off. If you somehow discharge a gun while holstering, it is not accidental, it is negligent.

[Guest PapaB]

Absolutely zero, PapaB; that's why I predicated it with "potentially useless" and ended with "armchair commando." I would love any input from you that would help.

Think of people reacting to emergencies like the way people vote. While some people will vote conservatively, others will vote liberally and still others will vote moderately. No 2 people will have the same exact reaction. There are people that will get so freaked out that they become paralyzed while others are partially paralyzed and still others can't stop running away.

I'm reminded of a series of videos on AFHV of people being scared. Some scream and freeze, some run like the wind, some jump out of the way and (my personal favorite) some strike out to hit whatever's causing the scare.

Most of my experience has been with disasters and training others for disaster preparedness along with setting up and executing a variety of mock emergency scenarios. An example is going into a school or company (by request) and having one of my colleagues fake a heart attack in a large group of people. The worst reaction we ever got was in the employee cafeteria of a hospital where no one attempted to help for over 90 seconds and the person that did step in to help had just entered the room. 90 seconds is a long time in an emergency and those hospital workers (including Doctors and Nurses) were all frozen in shock.

Edited December 1, 2011 by PapaB

[Mike]

I wouldn't do that. A decent caliber round is going to pierce vehicle glass, doors, and whatnot. Look at bonded rounds if your worried about penetration.

WTF does a bonded lead core have to do with penetration?

[MiddTennTaco]

WTF does a bonded lead core have to do with penetration?

I think he means the projectile fragments less if its bonded? From personal experience, shooting through wood with soft point .223 that the lead core was the only thing that went through and the jacket was left behind in the wood barrier.

AND BOY! This must be a very close-to-the-heart subject because it appears everyone is treating the matter like you're talkin about their mama. Damn!

[BlackHawk93]

WTF does a bonded lead core have to do with penetration?

Bonded core ammunition has been shown to improve weight retention and increase penetration. ( So the experts say )

Think of people reacting to emergencies like the way people vote. While some people will vote conservatively, others will vote liberally and still others will vote moderately. No 2 people will have the same exact reaction. There are people that will get so freaked out that they become paralyzed while others are partially paralyzed and still others can't stop running away.

I'm reminded of a series of videos on AFHV of people being scared. Some scream and freeze, some run like the wind, some jump out of the way and (my personal favorite) some strike out to hit whatever's causing the scare.

Most of my experience has been with disasters and training others for disaster preparedness along with setting up and executing a variety of mock emergency scenarios. An example is going into a school or company (by request) and having one of my colleagues fake a heart attack in a large group of people. The worst reaction we ever got was in the employee cafeteria of a hospital where no one attempted to help for over 90 seconds and the person that did step in to help had just entered the room. 90 seconds is a long time in an emergency and those hospital workers (including Doctors and Nurses) were all frozen in shock.

I work in the medical field and, while not saying this didn't happen, I find it hard to believe tried and true medical personnel reacted like that, unless they were interns or in a teaching environment. But youre right, everyone reacts differently.

[billyscott]

Has anybody seen a comparison between hollow point and FMJ ammo? Like with ballistic gelatin.

[Guest PapaB]

Bonded core ammunition has been shown to improve weight retention and increase penetration. ( So the experts say )

I work in the medical field and, while not saying this didn't happen, I find it hard to believe tried and true medical personnel reacted like that, unless they were interns or in a teaching environment. But youre right, everyone reacts differently.

In talking to them afterward, most said they weren't sure what was going on because they never thought about an emergency occuring in that context and it completely threw them off guard. Mental preparation means a lot and that's why we set things up to fake an emergency. Sometimes people expect things to happen in certain places but never expect them in others. This was a small county (less than 20k pop.) hospital and the administration had us come in because they hadn't been able to get the staff to take CPR training. Only 1 Dr. and 2 nurses in the whole hospital were certified at the time.

[Caster]

Accidental Discharges do happen, even to very experienced shooters. Yes, its a matter of keeping your "booger hook off the bank switch" but other things can cause discharges. Leather holsters can as well ... SAFETY WARNING! Worn Leather Holsters Can Cause Accidental Discharges!

I'm not here to debate whether accidental discharges happen or not, simply asking a question and to hear peoples thoughts, that's all

So Far -- Doesn't look like anyone seems to agree with me -- which is fine -- What can I say, I have some crazy idea's when I sit home, drink, and play COD haha

Will agree with Garufa; there are no accidental discharges that injure anyone. They are negligent discharges. If your weapon is pointed in a safe direction, and your finger is not on–and does not pull–the trigger, the gun will not go off. If you somehow discharge a gun while holstering, it is not accidental, it is negligent.

I agree as well mac and garufa, but I'll be a jerk and take this a step further. There are no such things as accidents PERIOD. The word accident is a filthy tree huggin' hippy word like political correctness, co-champion, or any of the other make everyone feel good words.

Everything labeled an accident, is in fact a direct result of someone else's poor judgement because they are ignorant, stupid or didn't have their mind on where they are and what they are doing. There's never been a car accident in the history of driving. Someone screwed up. Accident is a word for people too weak to accept blame. Every time I smash my thumb with a hammer, it's because I was too stupid to keep it out of the way. The only difference in negligence being malicious intent or not. One may do something they wish they hadn't, but they did it none the less. Unless they were under possession by a demonic entity it's their burden to bear.

As for keeping different kinds of ammunition in a carry gun, I don't think this is wise AT ALL. Every ammo has defining characteristics. Each different brand has different terminal performance and point of impact. The latter being the most important. Your follow up shot, if needed could be off. Not likely, but it could. Also, as everyone else has pointed out, there's little to be gained [penetration wise] from a fmj over quality defensive ammunition.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Caster

[Guest peacexxl]

I am having some trouble with the idea that "I am taking on the resposibility of legally arming myself because I want to be ready if something bad goes down, but just in case I do something stupid, I want to make sure I am shooting myself with a 'less effective round'".

Personally I carry in the hopes of being prepared for that bad situation, which means that I can react immediately if it arises. I don't want to have to clear the chamber of a lesser round so I can do the intended amount of damage to the agressor without counting on follow up shots.

At the same time, before all of this modern technology, people were getting shot and staying perfectly dead by means of FMJ rounds. If you do slip and find your finger in the wrong place at the wrong time, I truly doubt your first reaction will be "atleast it was only a FMJ!"

but that is just my .02! Like most, I have never been in the situation and I hope it stays that way for me, you, and everyone else carrying safely and legally.