Openly carrying gun not a crime in OH

[Fallguy]

Good article....except where the police are still trying to intimidate citizens from open carry by threatening being detained at gun point, inciting a panic and trespassing.

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http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live...U.html?sid=101

Openly carrying gun not a crime

Sunday, March 30, 2008 3:43 AM

By Bill Bush

THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH

In the political tussle over Ohio's concealed-carry gun law, one fact seems to have been overlooked by many: You never needed a permit to carry a gun in public, and you still don't --- you just can't conceal it.

As long as you haven't been convicted of a felony, if you want to wear a pistol on your belt or walk around town carrying a shotgun, Ohio has no law against it.

But if you do, don't be surprised if you get some unwanted attention from police officers.

Philip Turner, 30, discovered that in July when he walked from his Hilliard apartment to his parked truck wearing a gun on his belt. At the time, Turner worked protecting banks' ATMs as they were serviced and delivering diamonds to jewelry stores.

An undercover agent with the Ohio Investigative Unit -- the police agency that enforces the state's alcohol, tobacco and food-stamp laws -- saw the gun and quickly ordered him against his truck with his hands on his head.

"He came up and treated me like a felon for absolutely no reason at all," Turner said. "There wasn't even a suspicious action on my part to warrant him taking this action against me. Had I been out waving a gun around the parking lot, (then) yeah."

After being detained for about 30 minutes, and after Hilliard police arrived at the agent's request, Turner was released without charges. An internal investigation that concluded this week found that neither Agent Timothy Gales, who had stopped Turner, nor his partner, Betty Ford, did anything wrong.

However, it also revealed that Gales did not know it was legal for Turner to carry a gun openly, said Lindsay Komlanc, spokeswoman for the state Department of Public Safety. As a result, more than 100 agents in the unit are to attend a mandatory refresher course on Ohio's gun laws over the next couple of months, she said.

They might be surprised at what's legal.

The investigation report said that, weeks before Turner was stopped, agents stopped a 13- or 14-year-old boy who was carrying a rifle in public. They called his mother, who retrieved the gun. Then they called a supervisor to figure out what charge to file against the boy.

The answer: nothing. The supervisor advised them that "it was their right to carry a gun openly and they were allowed to do this," according to the report.

Ohio law says you can't sell a gun to people younger than 18 or provide them with one, except for "hunting, sporting or educational purposes," said Lt. Shawn Davis of the State Highway Patrol. A child must take a gun-safety course before going hunting, Davis added.

It's not illegal "that we see" for a juvenile of any age to carry a gun in public, said Jennifer Brindisi, a spokeswoman for the Ohio attorney general's office.

Turner, who has a license to carry a concealed gun, said he was carrying his gun openly "because it's my right. I choose to exercise my right to protect myself." He doesn't know whether the two agents pulled their guns; he was instructed not to face them. The agents told investigators they didn't.

But it wouldn't be unreasonable for officers to draw their guns until they know what the situation is, said Sgt. Rich Weiner of the Columbus Police Division.

"The first thing we need to address: This man has a gun," Weiner said. "We're going to pull our guns.

"As a police officer, we also have the right to protect ourselves and protect the public, so we do have the right to disarm him momentarily. Now everybody is a little bit more at ease. We don't have a potential weapon being used against an officer or anybody else."

If your open display of a firearm is causing panic, you could be charged with inducing panic, Weiner said. If you carry it onto private property, you could be charged with trespassing, he said.

Komlanc of Public Safety wouldn't say why the agents and a police dive team were at Turner's apartment complex last July because the case is continuing.

bbush@dispatch.com

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[Guest GUTTERbOY]

I'm not normally one to come down against police, and I'm certainly not in the cop-bashing camp, but how can they say the agents did nothing wrong by detaining this man? I understand that the agents weren't clear on the law, and that they're taking steps to remedy that... but then they turn around and say that the police are completely entitled to detain people for conducting a LEGAL ACTIVITY.

Look, I understand that seeing someone carrying a gun might make an officer nervous. Whether that's a justifiable reaction or not is a whole other conversation... but sometimes people just have to deal with things they find uncomfortable. I watched someone try to park their SUV today, and it took them three tries to get it right. The thought of driving on the road with that person makes me nervous... but for all I know, they might just be driving an unfamiliar vehicle.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

Good article thanks for post it. this happen to me in Athens. i was going in big lots. when i got out of my car my shirt was tucked behind my gun. i did not know this had happened. a cop stopped me had me put my hands on the wall. when he found out i had a HCP he let me go but it still was embarrassing everybody around me was looking at me like i was a criminal and i had to explain to my kids what just happened. i know it was his right to check me out i just think he could of handle it a little better then he did. like just come up ask if i had a carry permit or something like that. i dont know maybe the way he handled it was the only way he knew how....

[Im Neero]

i know it was his right to check me out

Not the way he did, IMO. You weren't breaking any laws, nor did you do anything to warrant suspicion.

[cadillacdude1975]

i say it should be a federal law that ALL LEOs take a one day course on the handgun laws in the state they are employed. call it a waste of manpower? then do it on the day that all police departments hold firearms training. and this is almost a monthly thing with most departments. i work with a catoosa county GA deputy, and they have firearms class about every 6 weeks. this would be a great time to cover the state gun laws for these police officers so they stop unknowingly harassing honest law abiding citizens over BS.

[Mike.357]

basically cops can do what they want to us. If they cross a line you get to sort it out later. If you need a lawyer to sort it out, well its coming out of your pocket.

you know somehow I just cannot picture someone who is illegally carrying a weapon to do so openly. I dunno but I guess a criminal will conceal the weapon so they draw no attention to themselves. After all criminals wish to remain below the radar until they commit their crime.

[Fallguy]

you know somehow I just cannot picture someone who is illegally carrying a weapon to do so openly. I dunno but I guess a criminal will conceal the weapon so they draw no attention to themselves. After all criminals wish to remain below the radar until they commit their crime.

That is why in many states open carry is actually a right that any non-felon adult can exercise without permission from the state. You only have to pay for the "privilege" to carry concealed. Unlike TN where you have to pay to simply leave your property period while armed.

[analog_kidd]

I know during a traffic stop in TN, an officer can request to temporarily disarm you they know you are carrying, but what about a cop who see's your gun printing, or peeking out whaile you are in a public place like a store. Can they legally make a big deal out of it and disarm you while they check you out? If they ask for your gun, do you have to surrender it? I know that he will eventually get to the bottom of the truth, but the hassel would be huge.

[Fallguy]

I know during a traffic stop in TN, an officer can request to temporarily disarm you they know you are carrying, but what about a cop who see's your gun printing, or peeking out whaile you are in a public place like a store. Can they legally make a big deal out of it and disarm you while they check you out? If they ask for your gun, do you have to surrender it? I know that he will eventually get to the bottom of the truth, but the hassel would be huge.

Here is what the law says about an officer disarming a permit holder.

T.C.A. 39-17-1351(t)

(t) Any law enforcement officer of this state or of any county or municipality may, within the realm of the officer's lawful jurisdiction and when the officer is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties, disarm a permit holder at any time when the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer or other individual or individuals. The officer shall return the handgun to the permit holder before discharging the permit holder from the scene when the officer has determined that the permit holder is not a threat to the officer, to the permit holder, or other individual or individuals provided that the permit holder has not violated any provision of this section and provided the permit holder has not committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the permit holder.

Of course it would be hard to prove that it was unreasonable for the officer to disarm you not to mention expensive as well. And truly in the end, to what results.

So above is the law, but in actuality as long as they give you your handgun, back there's not a lot you can do stop them from disarming you temporally.

[Guest 270win]

This is the reason exactly why I conceal my handgun in this state. I do not want my gun taken away, even temporarily, by some cop on a power trip. Most police will not cause you problems, but the fact is, you must have a permit under most circumstances to carry a loaded handgun away from your house. TN is not like Arizona or Louisiana where anyone 18 and up can openly carry a handgun on your person or in your car without a license/permit. It is that one bad cop out of the many good ones that can make you have a bad day. A handgun openly carried in TN gives a policeman reason to walk up to you and question to find out if you are legal (license/permit). If no one can see a handgun, it is VERY difficult to legally search your person in the public because of our freedom from search.

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

I don't understand why officers are not aware of the laws in the states they work, whether it's handgun laws or traffic laws. Don't they have to pass a test or something before being given a badge? Everytime I hear someone say "Alot of police don't even know the handgun laws", it makes me say "Why not?"

And I'm not bashing LEO or trying to start an argument. It's just been a valid question I've always wondered about.

[Im Neero]

There are a lot of laws. Lawyers have to go to school for 7 years and pass an extremely comprehensive test in order to practice in TN. They also get paid much more than police. Police spend a few months in training and then, as far as I know, never really do much else as far as learning laws. An officer could spend their off duty time keeping current and brushing up on state/local code, but they're not getting paid for it.

I'm not saying it's right, but they don't have the extensive legal training that lawyers do, nor any external motivation to learn anything more than is required to pass whatever test they need to get out of the academy.

[strickj]

I OC probably about half the time simply because I don't care if my shirt rises,and what people think,etc..and have only had one cop at Wally world shake his head at me.Is this really a big problem outside of a few cases?

[Guest price g]

I don't think so. Every encounter I have had has ended up with the LEO coming out to shoot one of our matches. I think not knowing the particular states carry laws{LEO} is the root of alot of the problem.my 02

[Guest shadow12]

Neero hit it on the head,

We can't keep up with the laws, they change so quickly and so much that it is near impossible. Lawyers get to look a law up after the fact, "Monday morning quarterback". Even they don't keep up. Also some administrations aren't civilian friendly when it comes to permits. I know chiefs that believe you shouldn't even have a gun, Democrats. They don't even think that cops should have one off duty. That impacts the cop on the street.

I arrested a man for "going armed under the influence", he had been involved in a disturbance, where he was waving a 357 around, and he was really drunk. My supervisor told me I couldn't hook him because he had a permit, so I showed him the TCA, badguy gets hooked, Ditrict Attorney pled it out, he didn't know about the law either.

So it ain't just cops, we are just the ones you see the most.

[Fallguy]

This is the reason exactly why I conceal my handgun in this state. I do not want my gun taken away, even temporarily, by some cop on a power trip. Most police will not cause you problems, but the fact is, you must have a permit under most circumstances to carry a loaded handgun away from your house. TN is not like Arizona or Louisiana where anyone 18 and up can openly carry a handgun on your person or in your car without a license/permit. It is that one bad cop out of the many good ones that can make you have a bad day. A handgun openly carried in TN gives a policeman reason to walk up to you and question to find out if you are legal (license/permit). If no one can see a handgun, it is VERY difficult to legally search your person in the public because of our freedom from search.

I do understand what you say Razorback and I used to CC 99% of the time, but I find myself trying to OC more and more...really for the exact reason above. Not cause confrontation but to raise awareness.

LEO's and the public need to know and accept there are legally armed citizens out there and simply having a weapon visible does not make you a BG....or concealed for that matter.

IMO simply carrying a weapon that is visible shouldn't be a reason for a LEO to intervene, (especially in this case since OC w/ out a permit is legal in OH) however I know in TN that you do have to have a permit to carry period, so if the LEO wants to see your permit, that is not an unreasonable request. However I don't think that it would require being held at gun point and/or searched.

On officers knowing the law....I admit there are lots of laws out there and it is hard to know them all, but I would think LEO's would primarily only need to deal with two sections...Title 39 on Criminal offenses and Title 55 on Traffic offenses. I'm really not bashing LEO's at all...love my brother the LEO, although we don't always agree on these type discussions...lol, but isn't the main job of a LEO to enforce the laws of the jurisdiction they serve? How can you do that if you aren't familiar with them? But if you aren't familiar with them, then fine, but don't try to enforce what "you think" the law is.

Edited April 1, 2008 by Fallguy
Traffic Laws are 55 not 57

[Guest shadow12]

Funny thing is Fallguy, I agree with you.

Even when I was in Iraq, I tried to keep up to date on the TN code, but most cops are just working for the check, they don't put out the extra effort, for whatever reason. If you as a LEO, don't read all of the updates and AG opinions, you will get so far behind that you can never catch up. It's no excuse to be an a$$ when dealing with the public, but cops are just like everyone else, some just can't help how they were raised.

[musicman]

But it wouldn't be unreasonable for officers to draw their guns until they know what the situation is, said Sgt. Rich Weiner of the Columbus Police Division.

Guys (and gals) I think you all are missing the much larger point...

this officer's name is Dick Weiner!!!

There should be a full article on that alone!

:D

[Guest shadow12]

HAHAHAHAHAH.................that is dang funny.

I don't think his Mom and Dad liked him very much

[Fallguy]

Funny thing is Fallguy, I agree with you.

Even when I was in Iraq, I tried to keep up to date on the TN code, but most cops are just working for the check, they don't put out the extra effort, for whatever reason. If you as a LEO, don't read all of the updates and AG opinions, you will get so far behind that you can never catch up. It's no excuse to be an a$$ when dealing with the public, but cops are just like everyone else, some just can't help how they were raised.

LOL...why is it so funny? I'm an agreeable type of guy.

...and kudos to you sir. For your service to the country and for taking your job seriously enough to keep up with changes that affect you and those you interact with.

That is true about how people are raised. ...and can find a cross-section of people in any group.

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

Guys (and gals) I think you all are missing the much larger point...

this officer's name is Dick Weiner!!!

There should be a full article on that alone!

:D

RICH Weiner.....I'm sure there's a reason he didn't want to be called Dick. LOL

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

Funny thing is Fallguy, I agree with you.

Even when I was in Iraq, I tried to keep up to date on the TN code, but most cops are just working for the check, they don't put out the extra effort, for whatever reason. If you as a LEO, don't read all of the updates and AG opinions, you will get so far behind that you can never catch up. It's no excuse to be an a$$ when dealing with the public, but cops are just like everyone else, some just can't help how they were raised.

I just wish every LEO out there would take their job as seriously as you thanks for your services

[chipperi]

If I'm not mistaken one of the owners of Coal Creek Armory was roughed up by some idiot KPD cop who used to be an Ohio cop. Once he found out that it was perfectly legal he threatened to make up a BS charge like inciting panic or something. The victim got nothing more than an apology from the Chief of Police. If any of us were to go to court and say "I didn't know it was against the law" the judge would promptly advise us that "ignorance of the law is no excuse" The same should apply to cops They weren't enforcing a valid law so they they were not acting in a capacity as a law enforcement officer and should be charged as civilians with assault and battery, unlawful detention, and then both them and their department sued.

[strickj]

You are correct chipperi,but I can not remember if it was the co/owner of Coal Creek or another place,but it did happen.

Dick Wiener

Heck,a rich wiener is not much better

[Mark@Sea]

He works at Coal Creek Armory, has a blog at http://coltcco.com/

There is always a big flap when someone says they want to exercise their right to open carry. Before it starts this time, can anyone correct and attribute the following quote?

"Those who do not exercise their rights have no complaint when the authorities follow their example."