Now that I bought a lower...

[Murgatroy]

Kinda wish I was experienced with these things, I picked them both up today. They sure do look pretty. I checked all the threads, and they were clean, no bent or broken tabs. Both lowers are identical other than the markings, one is pictogram, the other is safe/fire.

I am excited to get get started on them.

[Murgatroy]

I am currently looking at a 14.5" midlength upper.

I have two lowers, and I am certain that I will have more in the future based on the fun I am having. Thus I am not worried about the 'limitations' of a pinned 14.5" upper.

I haven't decided how the second, or the third or fourth... will be built. I am focusing on one at a time.

Right now PSA and BCM have pinned 14.5" midlength uppers for around the same price. The BCM would have to have a BCG and handguards added, which bring it up to a little over $150 more.

I am steeling myself for the buy once cry once mantra, and as I am piecing this together as I go, it shouldn't be that bad.

Is there a huge difference between the BCM and the PSA? I know BCM's rep, but the PSA seems to have the same specs.

Other than the limitations of having a pinned muzzle, is there anything I should know about a 14.5" midlength? What buffer should I be using, or is the base carbine spring/buffer assembly going to be fine?

[Dolomite_supafly]

I am currently looking at a 14.5" midlength upper.

I have two lowers, and I am certain that I will have more in the future based on the fun I am having. Thus I am not worried about the 'limitations' of a pinned 14.5" upper.

I haven't decided how the second, or the third or fourth... will be built. I am focusing on one at a time.

Right now PSA and BCM have pinned 14.5" midlength uppers for around the same price. The BCM would have to have a BCG and handguards added, which bring it up to a little over $150 more.

I am steeling myself for the buy once cry once mantra, and as I am piecing this together as I go, it shouldn't be that bad.

Is there a huge difference between the BCM and the PSA? I know BCM's rep, but the PSA seems to have the same specs.

Other than the limitations of having a pinned muzzle, is there anything I should know about a 14.5" midlength? What buffer should I be using, or is the base carbine spring/buffer assembly going to be fine?

Do not buy a pinned upper for your first gun.

The reason is it is a pain in the but to change anything without having to dremel parts off. The front gas block is essentially permanent as well as anything behind it like the delta ring and barrel nut that holds the barrel in place. In order to change anything you need to dremel off the gas block. This makes is a requirement you buy a clamp on gas block. You could also drill, file, grind your muzzle brake off yourself. But if you do that you need to find someone to dril, pin and weld the new one in place. Most gun shops aren't equipped to weld so they send it out which adds cost. Anyways you shake it changing stuff on a pinned gun is a pain in the butt. And then you need ot refinish the weld.

I would buy a 16" gun that way you can change things and set it up how you like it on your own. No need for a smith, just a few tools and some time.

As far as the barrel itself buy a 9 twist. It will shoot anything a 16" gun should be using. I shoot 69 grain bullets out of mine and they work great. You can alos shoot the lightweight varmint bullets in a 9 twist. Those varmint bullets may come apart in a 7 twist gun. I know because they come apart in a 7 twist bolt gun I shoot.

PSA's specs look as good as BCM's. I wouldn't have a concern using PSA parts in a build.

The standard buffer should work fine with your setup. Or at least try it before you buy.

You are more than welcome to come out and see how mine are now set up. That is the great thing about AR's. They are so easy to change that is unless you have a pinned flash hider.

Dolomite

[Murgatroy]

Do not buy a pinned upper for your first gun.

The reason is it is a pain in the but to change anything without having to dremel parts off. The front gas block is essentially permanent as well as anything behind it like the delta ring and barrel nut that holds the barrel in place. In order to change anything you need to dremel off the gas block. This makes is a requirement you buy a clamp on gas block. You could also drill, file, grind your muzzle brake off yourself. But if you do that you need to find someone to dril, pin and weld the new one in place. Most gun shops aren't equipped to weld so they send it out which adds cost. Anyways you shake it changing stuff on a pinned gun is a pain in the butt. And then you need ot refinish the weld.

I would buy a 16" gun that way you can change things and set it up how you like it on your own. No need for a smith, just a few tools and some time.

As far as the barrel itself buy a 9 twist. It will shoot anything a 16" gun should be using. I shoot 69 grain bullets out of mine and they work great. You can alos shoot the lightweight varmint bullets in a 9 twist. Those varmint bullets may come apart in a 7 twist gun. I know because they come apart in a 7 twist bolt gun I shoot.

PSA's specs look as good as BCM's. I wouldn't have a concern using PSA parts in a build.

The standard buffer should work fine with your setup. Or at least try it before you buy.

You are more than welcome to come out and see how mine are now set up. That is the great thing about AR's. They are so easy to change that is unless you have a pinned flash hider.

Dolomite

I guess the thing I am hanging up on is the 2" difference between a 16" barrel with muzzle device and the 14.5" with a muzzle device.

Am I over thinking it?

The one downside I am finding to the PSA parts is that all the barrels are 1:7. I don't think they offer anything in 1:9. That is something I keep looking at since you keep saying it, and it is the only reason I haven't fallen completely for PSA. BCM does offer a 1:9.

The only thing I have in mind for this is reliability. Right now I shoot paper, but in the near future I am looking at trying to get into some 3 Gun and taking at minimum a carbine course. I am not building for a certain range, grouping or sole purpose. I am just building for reliability. And preferably the ability to eat cheap steel cased Russian ammo. Sort of an all around jack-of-all-trades rifle.

[Seaslug]

I guess the thing I am hanging up on is the 2" difference between a 16" barrel with muzzle device and the 14.5" with a muzzle device.

Am I over thinking it?

The one downside I am finding to the PSA parts is that all the barrels are 1:7. I don't think they offer anything in 1:9. That is something I keep looking at since you keep saying it, and it is the only reason I haven't fallen completely for PSA. BCM does offer a 1:9.

The only thing I have in mind for this is reliability. Right now I shoot paper, but in the near future I am looking at trying to get into some 3 Gun and taking at minimum a carbine course. I am not building for a certain range, grouping or sole purpose. I am just building for reliability. And preferably the ability to eat cheap steel cased Russian ammo. Sort of an all around jack-of-all-trades rifle.

With apologies to Dolomite, don't get too hung up on the twist rate. For everything you're intending to do with your gun, 1:7 will work just fine. The only time you'd ever notice any difference in performance is on soft (read: living) targets at long ranges. Heck, manufacturers like LaRue even make 1:8 barrels nowadays as a "best-of-all-worlds" compromise. Edited December 19, 2011 by Seaslug

[Dolomite_supafly]

Call PSA they can probably build you what you want.

And Seaslug is right, for 90% of the people out there they will not see a difference between a 7 and 9 twist. Punching paper isn't going to show a big difference. But as Seaslug said, on biodegradeable targets the heavy bullets going slow with a fast twist are not going to perform as well with a 7 twist as out of 9 twist. And people do shoot the 77 grain bulelts out of 9 twist barrels. If I was going to shoot those I would use the 9 twist over a 7 twist because they will tumble upon impact with the target.

I just prefer the 9 twist because the bullets are more likely to tumble in soft targets than a 7 twist. The 9 twist can shoot heavy bullets just fine as well as the super lightweight ones which the 7 twist may not. The 7 twist has a reduced velocity compared to a 9. And with a 16" or shorter barrel the heavy bullets aren't going to get pushed to a point where they will come apart upon impact and with the fast twist they will not tumble. And when you consdier most of the bullets that you are going to find in a SHTF situation ar 55 or 62 grain the 7 twist is way too fast. Even 9 twist is a bit too fast for 55 or 62 grain bullets but it is still better than the 7 twist.

I know you plan on using it for paper punching but you need to realize it may be called upon to perform other roles. And considering the majority of the bullets you are likely to use are 55 grain. 55 grain bullets will shoot fine out of a 7 twist but they will not tumble as readily as a 9 twist. If the bullet isn't coming apart because of reduced velocities down range you at least want it to tumble. Otherwise the wounds are going to be about like a 22 lr.

Here is a good read on the subject:

http://www.texassmallarmsresearch.com/TechInfo/556Performance/556Performance.pdf

Read this for some more detailed explanations. It has velocities and the lieklyhood of the bullets working how they are designed:

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/long-guns/65901-entry-level-i-e-economical-ar-complete-upper-4.html#post827704

Either way it is your choice. There are thousands of 7 twist guns out there wokring well as well as 9 twist guns.

Dolomite

[Guest]

Even 9 twist is a bit too fast for 55 or 62 grain bullets but it is still better than the 7 twist.

Aren't current M4s 1:9? Why would they be 1:9 if this was too fast for the standard ammunition?

According to that slide show, 77gr ammunition is best.... but way expensive. So what's the best twist rate for standard M193 and M855? 1:9? If 1:7 isn't too good, why is it pretty much all PSA offers (at least from the uppers I looked at)?

I could load 77gr instead of 55 or 62 gr, but that's really just a work-around. I guess I need to find the barrel that matches the normal, common ammo. ...if it's not 1:7.

Thanks

Edited December 20, 2011 by Guest

[Seaslug]

Aren't current M4s 1:9? Why would they be 1:9 if this was too fast for the standard ammunition?

According to that slide show, 77gr ammunition is best.... but way expensive. So what's the best twist rate for standard M193 and M855? 1:9? If 1:7 isn't too good, why is it pretty much all PSA offers (at least from the uppers I looked at)?

I could load 77gr instead of 55 or 62 gr, but that's really just a work-around. I guess I need to find the barrel that matches the normal, common ammo. ...if it's not 1:7.

Thanks

Currently issued M4's are 1:7 with extended feed ramps.

[mikegideon]

Another point in the twist debate. We're civilians, so aren't locked into non-expanding bullets for soft tissue work.

[Guest WyattEarp]

can someone tell me the benefit to building your own AR-15? as opposed to buying one that is pre-built?

a couple of buddies have them, and I'm thinking about getting one, but not sure whether to build or buy one that's already built?

[Dolomite_supafly]

Aren't current M4s 1:9? Why would they be 1:9 if this was too fast for the standard ammunition?

According to that slide show, 77gr ammunition is best.... but way expensive. So what's the best twist rate for standard M193 and M855? 1:9? If 1:7 isn't too good, why is it pretty much all PSA offers (at least from the uppers I looked at)?

I could load 77gr instead of 55 or 62 gr, but that's really just a work-around. I guess I need to find the barrel that matches the normal, common ammo. ...if it's not 1:7.

Thanks

The reason why they are offering the 7 twist is because that is what people are wanting. People want what the military is using so that is why it has become so popular. Not because it works better for most people. Most people will never use bullets that require a 7 twist barrel to reach its full potential. I would be willing to bet that 99% of AR shooters use 55 or 62 grain bullets with the lion's share being 55 grain. And neither of these need a 7 twist. Firing a 55 or 62 out of a 7 twist only oversabilizes the bullets, preventing them from tumbling. And I would not want a 7 twist considering as velocity drops so does the performance with the 55 or 62 grain bullets.

The reason why the 77 grain is the best in that PDF is because of the twist rate. As I said the current issue 7 twist barrels are overstabilizing the 55 and 62 grain bullets being used over there. This is why we are hearing of its poor performance. In order for FMJ bullets to perform well they need to tumble and too much twist prevents this, especailly as velocity drops. The 77 grain bullets are less stabile than the 55 and 62 grain bullets so the 77's are going to tumble more readily and thus give a performance increase over the 55 or 62 grain bullets. Take the 55 and 62 grain bullets and fire them from a slower twist barrel and you will see a dramatic improvement in the results in the gelatin.

As Mike said we as civillians can choose other types of bullets. These can improve the performance of the bullets regardless of twist. And I would choose one of the TAP or V-Max offerings in the 55 or 60 grain weights.

And although I hope it never happens you need to plan for the worst case scenario. In a time when you can't buy ammo and can only loot or take it from enemies what weights are gonig to be the most prominent? Most likely either 55 or 62 grain. Just like today in our military the majority of the ammunition available is 55 or 62 grain bullets. And with 55 and 62 grain bullets the 9 twist is a better choice 7 twist.

can someone tell me the benefit to building your own AR-15? as opposed to buying one that is pre-built?

a couple of buddies have them, and I'm thinking about getting one, but not sure whether to build or buy one that's already built?

The biggest reason is you only pay for what you want. Most people who buy an AR end up changing the gun so that means they have to spend even more money if they buy a factory gun. Now on the flip side if you buy a factory gun you have a large company to support you if anything ever goes bad.

If I was going to buy a factory built gun today it would be the M&P15 Sport. As a matter of fact as a builder I would still buy it because of the features it has for the money. It has the 5R barrel, which is a good thing, and a MPI tested bolt. The barrel is also melonite coated which is supposedly longer lasting than chrome. These features would normally be found on higher end gun and not a sub $700 gun. It is a good foundation gun for a person to grow into. Because it is built to the current standard anything and everythign can be swapped out to fit the shooter's needs. It also comes ready to shoot with a rear sight.

Dolomite

[peejman]

can someone tell me the benefit to building your own AR-15? as opposed to buying one that is pre-built?

a couple of buddies have them, and I'm thinking about getting one, but not sure whether to build or buy one that's already built?

What Dolomite said, and... it's fun. You learn a lot more about how and why it works. You know which pin goes here and which spring goes there. Sometimes you learn that the hard way. Some people find several $300 expenses more palatable than one $900 expense.

[Murgatroy]

I finally got my rump in gear and ordered the rest of my parts to complete the first rifle.

All PSA and MOE.

I am winding up spending a bit more than I anticipated, but I am still coming out well ahead in my opinion. When I started this gig I got it in my head that I could get the whole thing completed for ~$500 not counting transfer and shipping. So around ~$600 would be a realistic goal for a quality mil-spec rifle.

I have to admit that I am over budget by a whopping $100.

The hardest part I have had is the plethora of choices out there. Do I want mid length, rifle length, carbine length? Do I want a 20" or a 16" barrel? Free floated, railed, plain or MOE handguards...

In the end I took the path most traveled.

I just ordered a PSA MOE Complete Lower kit in black. I then got the PSA M4 Carbine Upper (1/7, 5.56 chamber and chrome lining) with the tactical latch charging handle, the MOE handguard a MBUS in black and the A2 muzzle device.

The odd thing is that in order to get all of the MOE furniture, I had to order it in pieces as opposed to a complete rifle kit. It wound up costing about $10 more once you figure in the tac latch. I don't know why I wanted it, but for $10 I figured why not.

Now my choice is which lower to build, the pictogram or the S/F.

[Murgatroy]

LPK arrived. I am excited.

[kwe45919]

Get to building....

[Murgatroy]

The lower is done. Kinda.

One idiot mark. I taped the lower when I started installing the bolt catch, but It seems I tapped the punch through the tape and made an 1/16" idiot mark right there. I can accept that.

I lost the pin detent on the front, I used the razor blade method, and it worked perfect. The second time. The first time I had a miniature projectile that I still haven't found.

Because of that I just have my buffer tube and stock in place, but not fitted. I suppose I will head to the show tomorrow and find a detent.

All in all I am impressed at how simple it was. I have watched a couple of videos beforehand, but I used Brownell's walk through to do it. I had to pause it a few times, but it was all pretty straightforward.

The Magpul equipment was nice, has a good feel to it. I did have to torch off the Locktite they had on the screw that I had read about as well.

[Murgatroy]

And done.

PSA Lower and full upper. Assembled separately. Mil-spec MOE stock, MOE Grip, MOE Trigger Guard, MOE Hand Guard, rear MBUS.

Chrome-lined 1/7 twist 16" M4 profile barrel.

Tactical charging handle.

A whole slew of Magpul PMags.

And the downside? I am in the middle of a move, and I don't know when I will get to go shoot it.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Murgatroy

[ShamGlock]

I will be interested to see how you like it. I have read a ton of great things about PSA these days.

[Murgatroy]

I won't be able to shoot it for a little while, but it feels great. The build was solid, there is no play or rattle. The lower was easy to build and when it came time to mate the upper, they went together like they were made to.

I am pleased.

[Fourtyfive]

The gun looks great but you know those cigs can kill you.

[RichardS]

PSA Lower and full upper. Assembled separately. Mil-spec MOE stock, MOE Grip, MOE Trigger Guard, MOE Hand Guard, rear MBUS.

Chrome-lined 1/7 twist 16" M4 profile barrel.

Tactical charging handle.

A whole slew of Magpul PMags.

Nice job... I built near exactly the same thing a while back an am loving it so far, no issues at all and it is more accurate than I am.

[Murgatroy]

Got to the range this morning. Just to function test. One magazine of 62gr Monarch .223 brass, one magazine 62gr Monarch .223 steel.

25yd, all shots on the 12" target, nice group all to the lower right, about 6" group with the brass, the steel was about 10". I had one FTE with the steel cased, but it felt weak. No stoppage, so I finished the magazine without issue. Tossed all the shells about six feet at 5 o'clock.

[k9wh91984]

Good stuff!

Edited March 8, 2012 by k9wh91984