Glock ownership???

[Guest jackdog]

Bottom line is if you like the glock and you feel comfortable with the reliability, it is hard to change to another fire arm. On the other hand if you are a glock hater, no one will ever convince you that glocks are good firearms. I just recently put 150 rounds through an xd 40. I liked the way it fit my hand, it pointed easily and jammed twice. The jams I attributed to the Remington ammo I was using. At present I just can't see the need to spend 450.00 dollars on a gun that is not a whole lot different than my glock 23.

It could happen in the future, only time will tell. What I do know for sure is my glock has always went bang when I pulled the trigger. For the present I will carry what i feel comfy with my G23.

[Marswolf]

I don't believe I have ever said Glocks were the best. What I have said is that they are as good as any of the others that you mention.

Glocks are not perfect. The out of battery detonations and unsupported chambers in 40S&W are legitimate problems.

Does it not strike you that this is not only begging the question, but contradictory?

Speaking of SIGs, I wouldn't give a nickel for a dozen of them. The bore axis is too high, they have too many Germanic levers, and they have a nasty tendency to have horrible DA triggers followed by lighter SA triggers than any factory 1911 ever thought of having. Not a good combination, in my humble opinion. The one good thing about them is that they are very reliable. The difference is that I will concede that most of my complaints about SIGs (other than the DA/SA trigger combo) is just my OPINION. Doesn't make them bad, just not my cup of tea.

Actually, Glock's ergonomics are one of the things I don't like about them. I found that I had to correct for their weird grip angle and bore axis. But that's just an opinion.

Once one cocks the hammer on a DA pistol, he probably has a lighter trigger than any Glock. I don't understand how anyone who advocates this can call the Glock trigger unsafe.

Maybe in some cases, but you can cock and de-cock them. Can't do that with a Glock.

I can't agree that this is a Ford vs. Chevy debate. Maybe a Pinto vs. Mustang debate. The Glock has very real design flaws. Yes, it can be made to work OK with specific ammunition, but there is not the additional safety factor one expects in a good handgun.

Compare it to a H&K or SIG, or Beretta, or XD, or whatever. These guns have supported chambers. They do not fire out of battery. They have heavier slide rails. They have heavier support for those rails. Most, but not all, will field strip with a round in the chamber or have safety features to prevent an AD on disassembly.

Glocks do work for a lot of people, but they are an outdated design that needs reworking to make them safer.

I'm not a Glock hater, contrary to what folks think. I'm just very critical and realistic about all guns. Over the years all of these guns have made incremental changes to enhance ergonomics and safety. Most changes are done quietly and without fanfare. No big "Generation X" announcements. But the changes are made. In Glocks case the things that need fixing are serious design flaws, and they have not been fixed.

So feel free to use your Glock. It will likely fire when needed. Just don't try telling me they are as good as other quality handguns. They aren't.

[GhostDog]

At least I got you to admit that some of what you say is opinion. There may be hope for you yet.

As far as de-cocking is concerned, I just don't know how smart it may be to over complicate what should be kept as simple as possible. I wonder how many NDs occur when folks try to reholster cocked DA pistols. I guess there would be more if there were more of the guns out there in use. There can be no argument that there are more Glocks in use and, in my opinion, that is why there are more reported NDs w/ them. If all pistols in the US were HKs, you would have more reported NDs w/ them. More guns in use=more reported cases. It's a software problem (ie. people), not a hardware problem.

The picture of the "Glock shorts" (which is pretty funny) proves my point. Apparently, a lot of the problems are w/ reholstering. What could be the cause of that? I guess it must be the gun's fault, it couldn't possibly be the knucklehead w/ his finger on the trigger while he jams the gun into the holster.

Do Glocks have problems? Yes, they do. 40S&W is the poster boy for this. However, if one doesn't want to deal w/ the unsupported chamber, just get a different gun or don't shoot crappy ammo. Remember the Beretta problems in the late 80s/early 90s. There were all sorts of reasons given and Beretta fixed the problem eventually. Even so, they never really recovered from a PR perspective. In my experience, Berettas are great guns, but their sales still lag behind others due to the PR mess way back when. Despite the problems w/ the 40S&W Glocks, Glock does not seem to have suffered from it like Beretta has. I wonder why that is? It might have something to do w/ providing an excellent gun at a much better price.

A better analogy might be Mustang vs Porsche. If the Mustang will do everything you need it to do, why waste money on a Porsche?... Unless you just appreciate art and have the extra money. Better to spend the extra money on driving lessons. You just can't beat a good, utilitarian, reliable, rugged pistol that does what you need it to do when you need it.

Simple to use and easy to fix in the rare cases that something breaks, these are also hallmarks of the Glock. Try that with an HK, Beretta, or SIG.

There's nothing wrong w/ a certain amount of elitism, I guess. Everyone wants to feel special. But... in a jam, a good mule is better than a high strung quarter horse.

[Marswolf]

There can be no argument that there are more Glocks in use and, in my opinion, that is why there are more reported NDs w/ them.

Remember the Beretta problems in the late 80s/early 90s. There were all sorts of reasons given and Beretta fixed the problem eventually. Even so, they never really recovered from a PR perspective.

There's nothing wrong w/ a certain amount of elitism, I guess.

I've thought about your argument quite a bit in the past and there has to be more to the ND problem than just that there are a lot of Glocks. When I go to the range, I see a lot more aggregate of handguns other than Glocks. But the guns that end up shooting their owners tend to be Glocks, or at least that is how it seems. I agree that it is the fault of the owner. Glocks don't go off without the trigger being pulled, but there is something about the design that makes it much more likely for the user to pull the trigger sufficiently to produce the ND on a Glock than other handguns. What it is I don't know. But it does appear to be a real phenomenon. I don't have to know why fire is hot to know not to put my hand into it.

If negligent self-shootings don't happen as often with other handguns as with a Glock, then I think it reasonable to conclude that Glock has a design making it less safe than other handguns.

My Beretta 92 is a SB model from around 1983 or so, before they were modified for M9 military use. My Beretta has been putting in service since I bought it and never had a problem. I remember the Beretta problems that came with M9 development and US manufacturing, but I doubt many younger people do. If Beretta has a PR problem like Glock, I don't know of it. Maybe it's the people I hang around with, but I never hear about problems with Berettas except environmental things like blowing dust and sand in Iraq, a problem fixed with a change to the proper lubricant. But I constantly hear about Glock kabooms, and Glock legs. It's a bit of a stretch, in my view, to say that Beretta has a PR problem and Glock doesn't. Unlike H&K and Beretta, Glock has a top of the line marketing group - like a good circus. Price and marketing are why they sell.

And as you probably remember, I think elitism is why a lot of Glocks are sold. Inexperienced handgunners want a gun "like the cops carry." They think they are buying status.

If you buy an H&K, you are buying status of course, same as if you buy a Ferrari. But it's status based on design and performance, not marketing hype.

I think your comment that, "if one doesn't want to deal w/ the unsupported chamber, just get a different gun" is precisely what I'm preaching. Designing a gun with a dangerous unsupported chamber strikes me as reckless and use of such a gun is foolish when there are safe alternatives. Safe handguns are readily available. So, once I examined the situation sufficiently, realizing what I had in a Glock, I did what you said. I got rid of the Glocks and paid a bit more for properly designed handguns.

[molonlabetn]

All that being said (not needing to reiterate my own thoughts, either), there is a place for lower cost basic handguns. That is the niche which Glocks, XDs, etc, seem to fill. To say that there are arguments for-or-against any particular platform may be a stronger term than I am looking for to describe the surrounding debate...

Preference is probably a better way to put it.

Notwithstanding the facts and perceptions for given designs, all I can really put forth, objectively, to summarize is:

-Simple and instinctive operation promotes reliability (mechanically and functionally)

-Simplicity without refinement inhibits precise operation

-Refinement without simplicity requires user proficiency and conscious manipulation

-Instinctive operation leaves the user vulnerable to flaws in their own instinct

-Conscious operation requires training/practice

-Loose tolerances promote reliability while sacrificing safety factor

-Superior materials and refinement improve safety-factor given the same potential mechanical reliability

This holds true of pretty much any device I can think of, including firearms.

[Donnie]

My brain hurts.

[Marswolf]

Rather than beating the dead horse more about Glock design, let me point out what H&K has done to address the situation. Other manufacturers, like S&W, have used different designs. Maybe a bit of a shift from the negative to the positive would be good.

H&K has available a trigger they call either the LEM (Law Enforcement Modification) or more currently the CDA (Combat Defense Action). It's standard on the P2000 and available for the USP.

The CDA trigger setup uses a two-part hammer -- an internal hammer and an external hammer. When the slide is cycled, either manually or by firing the pistol, the internal hammer is cocked but the external hammer follows the slide forward to its normal just-off-the-firing-pin position. When the slide is racked the hammer spring is roughly 80% cocked. When you pull the trigger you finish cocking the external hammer and fire the weapon. Depending on springs installed the trigger pull is around 5, 7, 8, or 10 pounds.

If for some reason the round does not fire, the gun becomes a standard DA weapon. Trigger pull is 11.47 pounds but you just pull the trigger again to re-strike. No slide racking is required.

Now, this trigger has a couple of interesting "tricks". First is that while the release pressure for firing is 4.5 pounds, the trigger has a long throw. That is you have a long pull to fire it. This largely eliminates the accidental firing of the handgun from inadvertently hitting the trigger. The first part of this throw is against only about 2# of finger pressure. At a point, near the end of that trigger stroke, resistance is encountered. If additional force is then applied to the trigger, the pistol will fire.

But there is yet another trick. The trigger reset is very short. So you don't have to release the trigger very far to take the next shot. The external hammer stays back and you essentially have a standard SA handgun release at this point. Release the trigger all the way and you go back to the long throw situation.

So, you end up with a handgun that has the reliability and safety you expect in a quality gun. Fully supported chamber, low likelihood of NDs, and double-strike capability. Changing a couple of springs will also allow you to change the trigger release pressure too, as a bonus.

I'll also add that the guns can be de-cocked for additional safety in the USP and the standard P2000 if desired. http://www.hk-usa.com/p2000_specs.html

[GhostDog]

I think he pretty much summed it up.

Mars,

We just aren't going to agree (on this anyway:D). I think we just have different priorities in handguns. I don't know why Glock won't change the 40S&Ws, maybe they fear a decline in reliability. I still don't thinks it's a problem w/ quality ammo. Also, I didn't say Glock had no PR problems, what I did say was that they haven't suffered much because of them.

I'll never buy the ND excuses. It's a people problem, always has been and always will be. Some guns may be more prone to this w/ poorly trained shooters but the same guns are easier to shoot fast and accurately. Those same shooters are just as likely to shoot themselves w/ a cocked DA pistol. That was the point I was trying (poorly) to make.

I guess the only way to settle this like gentlemen is water guns at 10 paces at dawn. Bring a Second and plenty of towels (you'll need them). I plan on taking advantage of you while you're trying to cock your waterpistol.

[TGO David]

Very interesting. If Smith & Wesson doesn't satisfactorily resolve a minor problem we had with the M&P 9c (due back today) then we might have to investigate a P2000 9mm.

[GhostDog]

I just read your last post. After re-reading my post from yesterday, it struck me as being more acidic than I had intended. I apologize, I didn't mean it to sound that way. I want to keep this exchange friendly.

Having said that, now I'm gonna poke you in the eye again. That HK trigger system sounds very German. We'll see if it survives "energetic" use.

Do you know why the Germans never killed Hitler? Because they let Germans come up w/ the plan. They should have hired a Russian. The Russian would have beat his brains out w/ an ax handle and he would never have survived to 1945.

[molonlabetn]

...That HK trigger system sounds very German. We'll see if it survives "energetic" use...

The Sig 'DAK' trigger system is nearly identical, and supposedly even smoother (haven't had a chance to compare, myself).

After looking at the internals on the Sig, I have no doubt that the trigger bars and sear engagement will hold up very well, as they are FAR beefier than the thin, stamped disconnector used by Glocks...

Time will tell, but the systems have been around for more than a few years already... and I've still yet to hear of either an LEM or DAK mechanism failing.

[Marswolf]

I just read your last post. After re-reading my post from yesterday, it struck me as being more acidic than I had intended. I apologize, I didn't mean it to sound that way. I want to keep this exchange friendly.

I think both of us were going a bit over the top. I'll accept your apology and offer mine. But my dad can beat up your dad.

That HK trigger system sounds very German. We'll see if it survives "energetic" use.

It's been around a while and I'd bet my life that it won't fail. They keep tinkering with things like trigger pull weight, but the basic design has proven itself.

I think it's Hyundai who has out a handgun with a somewhat similar design. It's whatever is the official military handgun in South Korea. Lower price than H&K or SIG. I was pretty impressed with the ones I saw. But you have to manually push the hammer forward when it's cocked.

[TGO David]

I think it's Hyundai who has out a handgun with a somewhat similar design. It's whatever is the official military handgun in South Korea. Lower price than H&K or SIG. I was pretty impressed with the ones I saw. But you have to manually push the hammer forward when it's cocked.

Daewoo. They had (or have?) a pretty nice .223 rifle called a DR200 also. My brother bought one a few years back and I was pretty impressed with it as a cheaper alternative to the AR15 family. Used the same mags even.

Edit... I found a picture of one:

And here is their "Tri-Action" DH40 pistol...

[Marswolf]

That's it Tung...errr...Broadside.

Thanks.

[Guest GlocKingTN]

I sorta like the AR piece. Nice for something I have never heard of!

[Marswolf]

The Daewoo DP51 9mm is the official military gun, as I recall.

http://www.floridagunworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FG&Product_Code=432&Category_Code=FIREARMS+H+D

"These pistols are truly unique handguns that feature a ""Tri-action"" unique to Daewoo. It works like a dream... no clumsy de-cocker to fiddle with, you just push the hammer forward - that's it! But when you touch the trigger, the hammer snaps back and your trigger acts like a smooth single action! No more flyers on the first shot! Order your Daewoo in either 9mm and put all your shots in the 10 ring.....even the first one! These Daewoo pistols are produced in Korea. Light weight, short recoil, locked breech, May be fired in three modes: single-action, double-action and ""Fast Action"". Comes with 1 10 rd. magazine and plastic carrying case. Very affordable for home defense! Barrel: 4.1"", Overall length: 7.5"". Weight: 28.2 ozs."

$329.95

The 9mm can use S&W 59 series magazines.

They also make a 45 ACP model, the DH45 as well as a 9mm compact.

I found a good overview and review at http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_Daewoo.htm

[GhostDog]

"But when you touch the trigger, the hammer snaps back and your trigger acts like a smooth single action". Isn't this what some folks slam Glocks for? Because the hammer looks like it isn't cocked, does that make it "safer"? This would be funny if you guys didn't actually believe it! Oh well, maybe when people start shooting themselves w/ these wonder weapons, ya'll will see the light.

You can't legislate common sense and you can't make an idiot proof pistol. You can, however, make a lot of money if you can convince people that you have.

Actually, I doubt there will be an increase in NDs w/ these pistols because I doubt there will be an increase in sales of these pistols. The same people who now have DA/SA SIGs will buy the DAK and those w/ DA/SA HKs will buy the LEM. I don't believe there will be a marked increase in the number of these pistols in use over what currently exists. So... the same guys who have already had NDs w/ cocked DA pistols will have NDs w/ their new and improved system, but it won't constitute an increase.

[GhostDog]

I was prepared to let this drop. But then I started reading the posts and was overcome w/ a wave of common sense. Sorry about that. At this point, I'm done. Maybe we can move on to other topics (that we can agree on).

[Marswolf]

It's the longer initial throw that makes it safer.

It is possible to make a safer pistol. Other manufacturers have done so.

We've gone over the number of guns fallacy.

There is nothing so uncommon as common sense. Some of us have it; some of us don't.

[molonlabetn]

I think the point is, that the initial fully-reset trigger pull is the equivalent of a long DA stroke. Subsequent shots are made in a halfway-single-action mode, as long as you don't fully release the trigger.

I'd encourage anyone interested in comparing them to go handle a LEM or DAK pistol and evaluate it for yourself. There is a HUGE difference in how they operate, compared to any striker-fired pistol I have ever encountered, especially Glock.

[GhostDog]

Some guns are so "safe" that they are practically unshootable. If we're not careful about blaming problems on the guns instead of the actual responsible party (ie. the shooter), that is exactly what we will all be saddled with (by the politicians).

As to the "fallacy" of the argument about the number of guns vs number of incidents, this is a pretty safe argument for you guys to make. The number of DAK/LEM/ect. will never equal (by a long shot) the number of Glocks in use, so it will be pretty much impossible for anyone to disprove your theory. How comfortable for you! Nothing like putting forth an argument that is impossible to disprove, is there?

Let's just bury the hatchet (not in each other) and let this drop.

[Marswolf]

But I just bought a super-soaker....

[GhostDog]

First we argue about Glocks and now you've started an arms race!

[molonlabetn]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/4858523.html

Gun owner may lose permit for firing Glock at show

He accidentally shot himself

By JENNIFER LEAHY

Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

A man who accidentally shot himself in the hand during the High Caliber Gun & Knife Show at the George R. Brown Convention Center may face misdemeanor charges and revocation of his concealed handgun permit.

The incident occurred Saturday about 2:30 p.m. when the man tried to disassemble the Glock .40-caliber handgun while shopping for a new part, said event organizer Todd Bean.

"He pulled the trigger barrel over his hand and shot himself in the fatty part of the hand," Bean said.

On-site emergency medical personnel treated the man, who was taken to a hospital.

"We have signs posted at the entrance that state that no one can enter with a loaded weapon under Section 30.06 of the penal code," Bean said. If the man is convicted of violating the statute, he could lose his concealed handgun license.

The Texas Department of Public Safety requires the signs be in English and Spanish in "contrasting letters at least 1 inch in height" and be "clearly visible to the public."

"There are already a number of safeguards in place, and we keep piling on the safeguards," Bean said. People at doors ask if patrons are carrying weapons.

The show, which is held in Houston six times a year, is designed to offer "new and old guns, ammunition, gun parts, books, knives, knife sharpening, coins, camouflage" and other related accessories from about 150 vendors, Bean said.

jennifer.leahy@chron.com

Real smart... Genius material right there. Of course, it didn't help that he had to pull the trigger to disassemble the pistol, without first being forced to lock the slide back...

[Guest Hyaloid]

Oh dear God.. please don't resuscitate this thread.