Glock ownership???

[molonlabetn]

That's easy... upgrade to an M&P.

Or a Walther P99...

[Marswolf]

That's easy... upgrade to an M&P.

But make sure you get one with the de-cocking lever and magazine disconnect safety.

[TGO David]

Mars... are you carrying a full size USP with hammer or a compact w/o? Thoughts on decocking levers on the "hammerless" design (or bobbed as the case is with the USP Comp)?

[GhostDog]

I agree w/ you on the LE vs Military point of view. One might choose a different tool if they were offensive as opposed to being reactive. However, all weapons are just tools, semantics aside. Any tool that works will do if you have the right guy behind it.

I disagree about the DAK/LEM ect. Despite what the guts of the gun look like or how they work, the result is the same. The guns don't do bang when dropped and have a consistent 5-7lb trigger pull. In other words, they are a copy of the Glock action.

[TGO David]

But make sure you get one with the de-cocking lever and magazine disconnect safety.

Boooooo on the mag disconnect!

Until S&W catches and retrofits all of the first run M&Ps with the weak plastic mag release button, you don't want a mag disconnect in your M&P automatic. Early production guns are prone to dropping mags at really inopportune times. No mag = no bang = serious pucker factor if you're in a firefight.

[GhostDog]

I believe I have studiously avoided slamming any other guns (except in jest). I'm sure HKs are fine guns. What I am saying is that Glocks are every bit as good as any of them and, in some ways, better.

As to the DAO/SA/DA argument, who cares what the guts of the gun look like or how they work. Bottom line, on the working end of things, the LEMs/DAKs ect work exactly as does the Glock. Consistent 5-7lb trigger and won't go bang when dropped. The internals and semantics are about as important as **** on a boar hog.

[molonlabetn]

I agree w/ you on the LE vs Military point of view. One might choose a different tool if they were offensive as opposed to being reactive. However, all weapons are just tools, semantics aside. Any tool that works will do if you have the right guy behind it.

I disagree about the DAK/LEM ect. Despite what the guts of the gun look like or how they work, the result is the same. The guns don't do bang when dropped and have a consistent 5-7lb trigger pull. In other words, they are a copy of the Glock action.

Actually, the H&K P7 was the first pistol to use a 'uniform' trigger pull model... Though, neither it nor the Glock are true DAO, technically, since the return from recoil of the slide acting upon the reset disconnector mostly pre-cocks the striker... The definition of Double-Action-Only specifies that the trigger perform the complete cocking action.

So, pre-cocked pistols are moreso in a class by themselves, exhibiting traits of both Single-Action and Double-Action-Only (which originated with bobbed-hammer revolvers).

DAK & LEM do not fully reset the hammer if the trigger remains depressed slightly, so in essence, this method effectively makes the extension of the trigger act as a pseudo-decocker as well... If I wrote the definition, it would be Triple-Action-Only

There is no similarity whatsoever between a Pre-Cocked Striker and DAK/LEM system... for one, the PCS does not have second-strike capability.

I must respectfully agree with you that we disagree about these details (unless my description has changed your point of view a bit).

Cheers!

[Marswolf]

The DAOs I've played with don't feel anything like a Glock. Nope - won't buy it Ghost. If it did feel like a Glock trigger, I wouldn't purchase or use it.

Tungsten, I have two service weapons. Both are full size. The USP 40 is the urban gun. Beretta 92 is the field weapon. Both have hammers that are usable. I don't care for the USPc for that reason. It needs to be easily re-cocked. I use a P7M8 for urban concealed.

I agree with you on the Glock de-cocker. If take-down is a problem (it is), you just need a better handgun.

My comment about the mag disconnect is related to the takedown thingy. Without it, you can still fire the handgun to take it down, just like a Glock. I don't like magazine disconnects either.

One more thing about foreign ammo. Some of it has hard primers. The Beretta and USP (and a lot of the DAO handguns) allow re-strike capability. Just pull the trigger again. I've used some Philippine stuff that you just count on pulling the trigger twice on a quarter of the rounds. Not a big deal unless you do weird stuff.

I'm sure HKs are fine guns.

Yes, they are.

What I am saying is that Glocks are every bit as good as any of them and, in some ways, better.

No, they aren't

[TGO David]

I agree with you on the Glock de-cocker. If take-down is a problem (it is), you just need a better handgun.

My comment about the mag disconnect is related to the takedown thingy. Without it, you can still fire the handgun to take it down, just like a Glock. I don't like magazine disconnects either.

Oh ok. I think what you're referring to is the sear disconnect. The M&P should all have the sear disconnect but some are provided without the magazine disconnect. The mag disconnect is one of those things I just scratch my head at. Not sure why you'd really want it even though I have heard people say that it's a good safety in case you want to store the gun with a round in the chamber, but separate from the mag.

Seems like a dumb idea to me.

[GhostDog]

You obviously know more about the internals than I do and I appreciate the information. But I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying. You used an interesting adverb in your narrative, "technically". That is my point. For the man behind the drawing board all those internal differences are terribly interesting. For the guy behind the trigger, they don't mean spit. The second strike capability is the only difference in operation and it's debatable whether that is of value or not.

When these companies started on the DAK/LEM/whatever, they had a specific goal in mind. They had to compete w/ Glock (5-7lb consistent trigger). They chose different routes to get there but the goal was the same, a goal defined by Glock.

I don't mean to be a knucklehead and I don't want to sound rude. SIGs, HKs, and Berettas are all fine pistols. They can all be counted on to go bang when you pull the trigger. They are not, however, better than a Glock. As a matter of fact, Glock has set the standard for what is best in a carry trigger (5-7lb consistent). I prefer a Glock, don't like SIGs at all. That doesn't mean I think SIGs are not good pistols, just not for me. To each his own.

I think some folks just go through all kinds of mental contortions to run down Glocks. Some of this is just personal preference, some may be elitism.

I don't know. I'll take any of those pistols in a pinch and be glad to have them. But... I would much prefer a Glock.

Hey Mars, I'm sure you know the other side of the second strike debate. If it don't go bang the second time, you've just been wasting time. And I will give you this: the Glock trigger doesn't feel like any other. You have to get used to it. But I believe that's true of any pistol, even between two pistols of the same type. It's either to your liking or it isn't. But I'm sure you have noticed that the DAK/LEM share the other attributes of the Glock trigger (pull weight/reset), as well as having gotten rid of all those shiny levers.

[GhostDog]

Oh yes they are too! And my daddy's bigger than yours!

[molonlabetn]

I enjoy mental contortions... But never to fabricate advantages/disadvantages.

The percieved comparison between the trigger-pulls of various pistols is relative, and as such those points are infinitly debatable... I concede that a 3/8" trigger pull of 5-7lb is universally accepted as an 'ideal' compromise between accurate/sensetive and adrenalin/AD mitigation. The idea of Glock setting that standard, though, is certainly debatable as well. I refuse to believe that criteria was not known well before Gaston was wearing diapers.

Either way, as you say, the method used to arrive at that specification is not super-critical to the person pulling the trigger.

[Marswolf]

Oh yes they are too! And my daddy's bigger than yours!

And mine is bigger than yours.

Hey Mars, I'm sure you know the other side of the second strike debate. If it don't go bang the second time, you've just been wasting time.

If you only have ten rounds left, you pull the trigger a third time.

[TGO David]

Pardon me... just playing through...

1911 > all

(running and ducking for cover)

[GhostDog]

Now you're treating like Mars does and making me agree w/ you.

Believe me, I don't think Gaston is the second coming, I just like his pistols. It may be that the "ideal" criterion was well known before, but it was also well ignored until the Glock pistols came along.

You are absolutely right about the feel of the different DAO triggers. They vary quite a bit. All are very user friendly in my opinion. We each have to make our own choices in that area.

[Marswolf]

Thought you were going to sleep....

[molonlabetn]

Pardon me... just playing through...

1911 > all

(running and ducking for cover)

What about Lorcin? 9 out of 10 gang-bangers can't be wrong!

[molonlabetn]

Now you're treating like Mars does and making me agree w/ you.

Believe me, I don't think Gaston is the second coming, I just like his pistols. It may be that the "ideal" criterion was well known before, but it was also well ignored until the Glock pistols came along.

You are absolutely right about the feel of the different DAO triggers. They vary quite a bit. All are very user friendly in my opinion. We each have to make our own choices in that area.

Browning Hi-Power

Functionally identical to the Glock (and 50 years older), if you don't use the safety.

[GhostDog]

Now I'm going out the door to work. Gotta love 16hr shifts. Talk to you guys later. And thanks for letting me get some sleep.

[molonlabetn]

Now I'm going out the door to work. Gotta love 16hr shifts. Talk to you guys later. And thanks for letting me get some sleep.

Sorry ... I know EXACTLY how you feel at this very moment.

Arguing semantics is addictive though, huh?

See you later, enjoyed the discussion!

[Guest db99wj]

Naaayyyyyy, naaayyyyyyyyy! Thump! Thump! Naaayyyyyyyyyy!

J/k, learning a lot from this conversation!

[GhostDog]

It got quiet after I left yesterday. Were you guys interested in the thread or just hanging around to take turns beating up on me?

[molonlabetn]

It got quiet after I left yesterday. Were you guys interested in the thread or just hanging around to take turns beating up on me?

I had to go do some work myself, actually... for most of the weekend too. I just never revisited the subject.

Nothing I debated was meant to 'beat up' on you. I respect your opinion.

[Marswolf]

I'd pretty much said what I have to say.

Now that I'm proven right, there is no reason to continue.

[GhostDog]

about being beaten up. I enjoyed the debate too. Besides, I figured Mars would reappear to get the last word.