Glock ownership???

[GhostDog]

You make good arguments for your point of view and I respect that. But, I'm gonna have to call BS on that last comment. You know, the part about "those that know vs those that might have to". Any cop (or anyone else who carries) who doesn't operate under the assumption that he/she WILL someday have to fire his/her weapon will probably never get a shot off when the time comes.

Handguns are reactive weapons. What fool would knowingly go to a gunfight w/ a pistol only? If we disagree, that's OK, I can live w/ it. But let's stay out of "ninjaland" w/ our argument, OK? Besides, your arguments are always well made and sensible. You are far above that kind of silliness and you don't need it to make your point.

Respectfully, GhostDog

[Guest myheartsinTN]

And what in your opinion is a superior handgun? I'll assume you believe that to be an HK given your avatar. I'll be honest I didn't read the 8 pages here. Just curious.

for a bit more you can buy a superior handgun that is suitable for those who know they actually will have to fire their weapons, not just that they might have to do so.

[Marswolf]

I'm gonna have to call BS on that last comment. You know, the part about "those that know vs those that might have to".

Heh, heh.

Ghosty, I'll plead guilty to hyperbole, but not BS.

I admit to using a bit of dramatic license. I was thinking of a lot of LEOs who carry their handguns for years and never have to fire it. Hell, a lot of them never even draw their duty weapon. A Jennings would probably be fine for them (more hyperbole).

OTOH, I was thinking of someone I know intimately who knows full well that when he goes into an operation he will likely be firing his service pistol. When you think of people who do that sort of work, how many of them carry Glocks?

I'd write more, but I haven't had breakfast and I'm so hungry I could eat a horse.

[molonlabetn]

snip, emphasis mine:

...I was thinking of someone I know intimately who knows full well that when he goes into an operation he will likely be firing his service pistol. When you think of people who do that sort of work, how many of them carry Glocks?...

That's probably the best way I've seen that put... and it is very true.

Sig, Beretta and H&K are the three which come to mind first, in that role.

[GhostDog]

I was a cop and firearms instructor for a long time, so I know what you mean. It always comes down to the commitment of the INDIVIDUAL as far as skill level is concerned. Some are excellent, some are not. But that's true in all things (not just police), isn't it?

I don't have the experience to intelligently comment on the things and people you refer to. If I did comment, I would be guilty myself of spreading the BS (something I try hard to avoid). To me, the handgun is a reactive tool which is a product of police experience. That's probably why we disagree (different tools for different tasks). I will say this: Most (not all) that carry a gun into "harms way" don't get to choose. They have to take what they are given. All that matters at the end of the day is that they have; tools that work (Glock/HK/SIG/Beretta/M4/870 to name a few) and the skill and determination to put them to good use.

By the way, don't go pulling any more Bill O'Reilly words on me like "hyperbole". And also... I still love my Glocks!

[GhostDog]

I'm no expert and I may be wrong. But... I don't believe that most of the people that Mars is describing go in w/ a pistol as their primary weapon. They may have a personal preference in sidearms but I doubt that's their main concern. It's kind of like asking a professional boxer what kind of socks he wears in the ring. He may like one type over another, but in probably ain't gonna be the deciding factor.

Just my opinion.

[Guest Hyaloid]

... I will say this: Most (not all) that carry a gun into "harms way" don't get to choose. They have to take what they are given...

I think that is an excellent rebuttal! Now, those that GET to choose, well they very well may not choose GLOCKS, but they are voluntarily going places where bad people try and place lethal amounts of fast moving projectiles into their vital organs, so they aren't quite right in the head to begin with.

I bet alot of people that cannot choose their weapon, would choose a GLOCK if they had a choice. Was that statement clear as mud?

I had to throw my uneducated and uncaffinated opinion in the ring so that I may be mocked mercilessly!

[Marswolf]

I will say this: Most (not all) that carry a gun into "harms way" don't get to choose. They have to take what they are given.

Reminds me of John Glenn's comment that it's hard to be confident when you know that the missile you're sitting on has been built by the lowest bidder.

Again, Glock is not a horrible duty handgun for LE use. But let's also face the fact that it is selected by departments both because it isn't a horrible choice and because Glock offers deep discounts to LE agencies.

As far as being a primary weapon, you are right that most of the time a rifle is preferred. But when you do need the pistol, you really want something other than a Glock.

[Marswolf]

but they are voluntarily going places where bad people try and place lethal amounts of fast moving projectiles into their vital organs, so they aren't quite right in the head to begin with.

Valid point.

[GhostDog]

When you need the pistol, a Glock is exactly what you want!... a pistol that works, is quick and simple, and has a good trigger. What you don't want is a gun with two different trigger pulls (DA/SA), has a dozen levers on the side, or a safety that requires an ape's fingers to use (high on the slide).

Why else, but the Glock, are all the rest playing catch-up w/ their DAOs and DAKs?

[GhostDog]

I think we both know that we're not going to change the other's mind. How about a truce?

I think we can both agree on this: What really matters is the shooter's determination and skill. As long as he/she has a gun that goes bang every time he/she pulls the trigger, the type isn't all that critical. We would all be better off spending less money on more guns and more money on ammo and shooting what we have.

[Marswolf]

When you need the pistol, a Glock is exactly what you want!... a pistol that works, is quick and simple, and has a good trigger. What you don't want is a gun with two different trigger pulls (DA/SA), has a dozen levers on the side, or a safety that requires an ape's fingers to use (high on the slide).

Why else, but the Glock, are all the rest playing catch-up w/ their DAOs and DAKs?

Actually, SA/DA is exactly what you do want. Keep it in DA and use it that way in an unexpected emergency situation, but place in SA when things are looking funky. Safer that way, you know. Why do you think so many SIGs, Berettas, and H&Ks are designed that way? Think Glock has the only smart people and the other professional manufacturers have all gone brain-dead?

I agree about the levers if one is a lever safety. De-cocking levers are good. Safety levers are bad. That is fixable in most other gun brands.

One of the problems with a Glock in a service weapon is that in other nasty parts of the world ammunition is often not very consistent. A Glock's unsupported chamber section could be a disaster. It gets back to that design thing again.

[GhostDog]

Do this in this case, that in another? When the rest of the world around you is getting complicated, simple is good. One way, always will carry the day.

Levers are levers (more complications when simple is GOOD).

SIG, HK, and Beretta are the very manufacturers coming out w/ their "new and improved" DAOs. Something, by the way, that S&W did some time ago and fairly well.

The nasty foreign ammo is 99.9% for certain going to be 9mm which will not be a problem in a Glock (unless of course it fearures LEAD bullets).

Still love you, Mars, but ain't buying it.

[Marswolf]

How about a truce?

"I have not yet begun to fight" - John Paul Jones

Just kidding.

I think a lot of the public proudly picks Glock as a personal weapon because they want a gun "like the cops have." Problem is, they aren't cops and need a weapon with different characteristics, just as the military or military-type people need a handgun with un-Glock-like characteristics.

LE agencies have reasons for picking a gun like a Glock. Feed reliability with factory ammunition (beginning to question that on in 40 S&W), accuracy, no manual safeties, lower unit cost and decent training all make Glocks a reasonable choice for some departments. I still think there are better choices, but they generally cost more.

That's one reason I post on this subject. I want prospective buyers to really take a look at the available handguns and pick one that is appropriate for their use, not just get something that is bought as much for ego reasons as for utility.

[Marswolf]

BTW, a lot of departments have gone to DAO because of "problems" with their Glocks.

Nothing wrong with a good DAO trigger and you are right, it does simplify the weapon for people who need simple weapons.

[Marswolf]

p.s.

I have some 9mm high pressure machine gun rounds I've shot in my Beretta 92SB. Want to try those in your G17?

[saintsfanbrian]

One thing I would like to see on a Glock is a decocking lever. This should be easy enough to handle and allow something like the Walthers have with a half rack cocking. Do a press check and you are cocked again.

[GhostDog]

Here you are FORCING me to agree w/ you again! I've heard folks run down gunshop people for recommending revolvers to new shooters. I don't get it!

Revolvers are a great choice for beginning shooters because of the very things you bring up, Mars. Not to mention the fact that nothing is better for learning trigger control and discipline than a good revolver. If one's shooting starts to slip or gets sloppy, try shooting a revolver for a while and then go back to the pistol. The results are eye opening.

Unfortunately you are right, Mars. People sometimes choose firearms for all the wrong reasons. I have tried many, of all types, and choose the Glock because that's what works best FOR ME. I don't think it's the best thing since sliced bread, it's just what I shoot best and am most comfortable/confident with.

Along the same lines, some people treat a firearm like a talisman. Buying it, shooting it once, and sticking it in a drawer or in your belt won't keep you safe. You have to learn to use it and practice. If you lack the commitment to do this, you just might be better off w/ a rabbit's foot. At least the rabbit's foot won't "go off" and hurt you or someone else.

I hope that didn't sound "snooty", I didn't mean it that way. I don't know it all but what I do know, I've learned through hard work and my own stupidity (more nicely put: experience).

[GhostDog]

I wouldn't even shoot those SMG rounds through YOUR Beretta!

Also, all people need simple weapons. That's why our "privates" don't come w/ a safety!

What you do w/ it is on you, don't blame the gear!

[GhostDog]

I saw (I was there, not just an internet story) a guy shoot a stuck bullet out of a G19 once (it was a squib reload and he didn't do this on purpose). It bulged the barrel but did no other damage. One new barrel later he was ready to go. I think a Glock could handle the SMG ammo but I don't think it's a very good idea for any pistol.

If the DAOs are a result of "problems" w/ the Glock, why are they emulating the Glock trigger/action?

Working nights, must sleep. I'm SURE we will continue this later.

[TGO David]

One thing I would like to see on a Glock is a decocking lever. This should be easy enough to handle and allow something like the Walthers have with a half rack cocking. Do a press check and you are cocked again.

I've got to disagree with you there. A decocking lever really has no place on a handgun that doesn't have an external hammer, IMO.

[molonlabetn]

Actually... DAO (and DAK, LEM, etc...), were the answer to the politically-correct practice of having a consistently high-tension trigger-pull.

The reason DAK and LEM are considered 'improved' is because they can be operated in such a manner as to not require a long trigger reset for subsequent shots, but automatically de-cock when the trigger is fully released... They are, in essence, a combination of many of the good traits of DA/SA and DAO, whereas a Glock trigger mechanism is (IMO) a combination of the worst traits of DAO and SA.

It is true that a warrior will likely rely on his/her long-gun, if they know they are going to a fight (even LEO grab a long-gun if they can, instead of answering a gun-battle with just their sidearm)... but the specific example which Mars alluded to was a person who knows that they will be discharging their pistol in a fight...

I think it's pretty clear that anyone with the option would choose the best equipment to rely on in a critical situation, we may not entirely agree what the 'best' equipement may be, the important thing is to be sure of your own choice...

There is, I think, an important (though over-lapping) distinction which ought to be made between the sidearm of the average LEO, and the sidearm of the average soldier or 'operator'. One is best defined as a tool, the other as a weapon... which generally are used under very different circumstances and conditions.

[saintsfanbrian]

Tungsten, don't get me wrong, I love my Glock. I would just like the decocking mechanism for when taking it down. Added insurance I guess you would say. I am always very careful to drop the mag and then rack the slide when I am about to clean the gun, I would just like the added option of hitting the decocking button/lever to drop the striker in a safe manner rather than pulling the trigger.

[TGO David]

Tungsten, don't get me wrong, I love my Glock. I would just like the decocking mechanism for when taking it down. Added insurance I guess you would say. I am always very careful to drop the mag and then rack the slide when I am about to clean the gun, I would just like the added option of hitting the decocking button/lever to drop the striker in a safe manner rather than pulling the trigger.

That's easy... upgrade to an M&P.

[Marswolf]

Nitey night Ghosty!

I mentioned this test in another topic

During testing, a bullet was deliberately lodged in a USP barrel. Another cartridge was then fired into the obstructing bullet. The second bullet cleared the barrel, resulting in a barely noticeable bulge. The pistol was then fired for accuracy and the resulting group measured less than 2.5 inches at 25 meters.

While technically Glocks are DAO, we all know that this is a technical point only and they act like a SA handgun. Other DAO handguns generally act like real DAOs. They are not copying the Glock. They are deliberately not doing so.